http://sports.espn.go.com...id=4366335

So maybe David Ortiz was on the sauce after all. I like him less now than I did 15 minutes ago.

I hope that every single player who tested positive in 2003 gets outed. I hope every person on that list will be shamed. Let's get it out in the open so that the Steroid Era can be put in the past.

I still love the Red Sox and I still love baseball. I can live with the 2004 World Series being tainted. I hope the 2007 team was clean. But who really knows?

It doesn't make me happy, but it doesn't change the fact that every World Series winner since ... ??? ... has been tainted. Every team cheated and every team had cheaters playing for them. It doesn't make it right, but in some regards, at least it was fair. For this, I blame Bud Selig and the MLB owners.

Damn you, Bud Selig.

Now about all those self-righteous people dumping on A-Rod for using.....

http://www.milescity.com/...=all#83598

While it's not suitable for this post, fans of Fight Club will appreciate everyone's favorite steroid poster child's high school nickname.

Hint: It was better than 'A-Roid.'

More importantly, 'BT' is persona non grata at Hooters. How low can a man go?

I'll give you props though Brian. At least you were critical of both of them.

[This message has been edited by Kyle L. Varnell (7/30/2009)]

Was it cheating though, when almost everybody was on the sauce and there weren't any rules in place that disallowed it?

Solid point, Bridgier.

And, FWIW, I'm getting tired of the crusty old has-beens complaining about steroid users.

Apparently none of them ever used "greenies" during their careers...

You've already "won" the genetic lottery if you've got the athletic prowess to be able to play at this level.

Imagine if you will, someone named Rrian Beed. Unless our friend Rrian was already in the upper 1% of the population athletically speaking, then all the PEDs in the world aren't going to turn him into A-Rod, or even Kevin Mulvey.

Or Nick Punto.

Or David Smythe

I implied in another post that I thought Big Papi wasn't on steroids now but that I believed that he had been previously. Like A-Rod or Manny when they quit taking the banned substance there seems to be a drop in their performance for a short while. Then their numbers slowly start getting back to where they were before. I've also noticed that the players who were on the juice, all have at least 10 years in the bigs. I hope that this means that the younger players realize that using banned substances just aren't worth the risk. If you really want a feel for what I believe the steroid era was all about, pick up a copy of Jose Canseco's book "Juiced". I'm not saying that everything in the book is true but it sure is an honest look at how Bud and the Team Owners knew what was going on and did nothing about it. Back then Baseball needed a shot in the arm (pun intended) to put butts in the seats and they got it steroids. If you look at pictures of the players at that time, they are just ripped! Anyway, Baseball will survive this and I think that the young players are for the most part playing clean. Canseco also said today that he knows of one player in the Hall of Fame who was juiced too. But like I said about the book, some of the stuff Jose says is just a figment of his imagination.
TALBOT

Using banned substances aren't worth the risk? Nobody is taking away their millions, I'd take my chances.

Author: mule train Posted: 7/2/2009 6:24:20 AM From: - CO
Believe what you want Brian about the 2007 Rockies, but they were the hottest team in baseball during the playoffs that year. Who knows, if Man Ram wasn't juicing more than Ron Popeil at the time, it could have been another story. Also, somebody tell me Ortiz isn't also on the stuff.

Thanks MLB for confirming what I already knew!!!!!! BTW...Todd Hilton never made and steriod list. F the Red Socks. F Boston. Massholes!!!!

I wouldn't go shouting that from the rafters, yet. Todd Helton had a pretty significant performance decrease.

*Update*
Just took a look at Helton's career lines - tell me you don't have your doubts.

http://sports.yahoo.com/m...870/career

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (7/30/2009)]

Someone tell me Matt Holliday hasn't been on the stuff. Tell me Albert Pujols isn't on the stuff (man, I hope he's not). Tell me every big time slugger over the last 20 years hasn't been on the stuff.

Rather than tell me this, show me this. Show us the list. Yes, it was supposed to be confidential. Well, it's not exactly "sealed" any longer, is it?

Let's get this out in the open. Let's put everyone's hand down on the table to see who has which cards, steroids or otherwise.

I can't say that the 2004 World Series was any more tainted than any World Series in the last 20 years. No one can. If some Yankees fans want to say that the Red Sox' curse was only broken because some of their players were using steroids, so be it. It's not as if the Yankees - or any other team, for that matter - didn't have cheaters playing for them, too. Were the 1996 Yankees clean? The 1998-2000 Yankees? The 2003 or 2004 Yankees?

The most that can be said is that one team's cheaters beat another team's cheaters. Let's not have anyone get on too high of a horse.

I say again - damn you, Bud Selig.

Update - Tom Verducci with Sports Illustrated has one of the better columns I've read today regarding this: http://sportsillustrated....ml?cnn=yes

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (7/30/2009)]

I'm pretty torn here. If my name was on the list, and baseball released it to the public, I would immedaitely file suit against the players union. They are the morons that did not destroy the list. They are responsible for this entire debacle, if I am "dirty". But if my name is not on the list, I want that list released by noon tomorrow. To clear my name. The players on that list failed a drug test, sort of. The drugs tested for were not illegal at the time. If I fail a test for milk tomorrow, am I branded forever if milk is made illegal next year? The rules were the rules. Since that infamous test, the rules have changed. At this time, the only way to insure the sanctity of the game is to test everybody, every week. If you can find a product that improves your performance on the field, and is not banned now, good for you. But if you fail a test, as it's currently defined, then goodbye for a minumum of 1 year. No baseball, no pay, no nothing for 1 full year. These guys might finally play the game clean. On the other hand, is there any test out there that is 100% infallible? There has been cases where I, naively perhaps, tended to side with the player.
Obviously I'm torn directly in half here. I want the game to get the respect it deserves, and be played clean. But we can't have any player wrongly accused either.

I can see what you're saying, Matt. That's why I'm so upset with Bud Selig. Sure, he wasn't the one injecting himself or others with steroids. But he didn't exactly lead the torch-and-pitchfork crowd when it came to making sure the game was clean.

The players on the list played within the rules of the game that existed at the time. Some of them held themselves to a higher ethical standard than others and also played clean. Others didn't.

As disappointed as I am with hearing that Papi's name was on the list (and that Manny was unclean back in 2003), I'm not going join those people who are now looking for his head on a pike.

I'm still holding on to the hope that Papi quit using steroids after the rules were changed. There is always that possibility, and I'll continue to be optimistic until there's proof that he failed a drug test under the current rules.

As far as I know, the Red Sox were clean in 2007 (sorry, Mule).

I have no idea what I'll do if he - or another Boston player - did violate the rules of the game. I hope I never have to figure that out.

Man Ram and Big Papi wer/are cheaters. End of story. Boston sucks.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Mule.

What does help me sleep at night? I have never had a problem sleeping...so there has been little that I have ever used to help me sleep at night. But knowing that a baseball history will put an asterisk by those who juiced doesn't hurt. Bottom line, Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron are still the true kings of the home run. Roger Maris still holds the true record for homers in a year.

Jim Rice said it best last weekend...Juicers are cheaters and their names should be removed from the record books.

Another thing that help me sleep...whiskey and hot lemonade.

Let's see what Papi tested positive for before we march him to the gallows, shall we?

Bronson Arroyo says he was using andro (and amphetamines) around that time, but quit because it was rumored the andro was tainted with steroids.

In other news, Brian, looks like the Sox are gonna pick up a mashing first baseman/catcher in Victor Martinez. They'll look good at the corner spots with Youklis moving back to third.

I am very happy about Victor Martinez. Adrian Gonzalez would have been nice, but Martinez is more versatile (and cheaper). The Sox didn't have to give up any of their top prospects. I liked Masterson, but I like Martinez much more.

I don't get the LaRoche-Kotchman trade though. LaRoche was more versatile, but it's not like either is going to get all that much playing time.

I'll sum up the Red Sox Trade Deadline deals in one simple word:

FAIL

I'll sum up the Red Sox Trade Deadline deals in one simple word:

FAIL

Kyle, I like you. But don't be an asshat.

From the analysis I've seen and my personal opinion, I'm inclined to disagree, Kyle. Victor Martinez will help Boston. They didn't have to give away much to get him.

Why do you feel the Red Sox have failed at the deadline? Are you that impressed with Jerry Hairston, Jr. that you feel that the Yankees did better?

Or are you just sucking on the sour grapes left by Jarrod Washburn leaving Seattle?

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (7/31/2009)]

Naw Brian, I'm just having a little fun with you while I'm on vacation.

Although the Washburn trade DOES piss me off.

Honestly, I'm surprised the Mariners traded Wasburn. I kind of figured Seattle would be a buyer this year instead of a seller.

Brian, there's something you need to understand about the Mariners front office stooges.

Anytime somebody shows the slightest bit of skill you can consider him trade material.

Varitek, David Arias (Ortiz), Washburn and so on.

Here's Jayson Stark's commentary on the trade deadline's winners and losers: http://sports.espn.go.com...id=4370512

At least you're not a Pirates fan, Kyle.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (7/31/2009)]

When both the Rangers and Angels pulled ahead by substantial margins, the Mariners had to become sellers. They WERE NOT going to catch both and they knew it. They got something for Washburn and still have a chance to get him back at the end of the season. They're stocking up on arms which can also be used for trade bait later. The 2nd half this year was starting out a lot like the 2nd half in '07. I think they know what they're doing.

They knew exactly what they were doing. In this situation, Kyle has proven himself a monster dipsh*t, again. The Red Sox, the Chisox, the Phils, and NOT the f*ckin Yanks turned out winners again. I'm not going to be shocked if the rich whitemen win the World Series, but it will have nothing to do with this. Unless you're a Pirates fan, every team came out a winner at the deadline this year.