MCYHA 30 Gun Raffle
Posted by Kerry Kilen (+89) 13 years ago
Just a reminder to get your tickets! There going fast and can still call me at 234-3701 or get them at Red Rock . Its going to support Miles City Youth. Thanks Kerry
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
Just out of curiosity, is the MCYBA holding an aluminum baseball bat raffle as a fundraiser?

Nothing says "support our youth" like weaponry.
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1350) 13 years ago
Imagine your child, who you love more then life itself, had been killed like Brandon was. Despite your stance on aluminum bats there are still someone's parents involved and it's not very nice to drag this pain back out for them.

You really should apologize.
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Posted by Scott P (+108) 13 years ago
Brian, I now realize how Inconsiderate, self centered and STUPID you are to post something like that.

Scott
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 13 years ago
Brian,

I get the gist of your "shock" statement however, I don't think it was very wise on your part to write that.....


As a teacher I also have a problem when the local FFA here in Beach raffles off a gun. I sat down and thought long and hard about it...sometimes I have to remember where I live and for that matter where I come from. I hate guns BUT I have to remember who pays my bills......that would be tax paying gun owners of Golden Valley County, North Dakota.

just my thoughts.....
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 13 years ago
They're not giving the gun to a kid, it's the prize to the raffle. If it gets people to buy tickets, go for it IMO. Pretty good chance the winner already owns a gun or two anyway considering it's Miles City.
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Posted by Chad (+1763) 13 years ago
There are a few things that do very well for groups trying to raise money with raffles in rural areas, where hunting and gun ownership are the norm. They are guns; ATVs; cars/pickups; vacations/trips (especially if they include tickets to some event); and food items (like halves of beef, a pig, or some cured meat product). They're all good by me.

I think they're all great things to raffle off and you don't have to buy a ticket if you don't want to. If you win the gun and you're anti-gun (God forbid) you can send it to the big city to be destroyed as part of some get the guns off the streets program. It would be a waste of energy and resources, but if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, have at it. Even better, sell it at a discount to someone that appreciates it for what it is and give the extra money to the group trying to raise funds.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
Which of the following have killed more people, accidentally or intentionally? In the U.S. or in Miles City alone?

A.) Firearms

B.) Aluminum baseball bats

(I'll give you a hint - it's the one that was designed for that particular purpose)

I think it's a valid question. One raffle is an example of something that is utterly tasteless. The other is an example of one that would be equally tasteless. There's really no difference, if you take more than a second and a half to think about it. Don't condemn the messenger because you'd rather disagree with him. You may not like the question, Scott, but that does not make it stupid.

Imagine if an organization proposed a fundraiser within weeks of Brandon Patch's death where the item being raffled was an aluminum baseball bat (it's not hard to visualize the cordwood being piled around a stake in a VERY public place, is it?).

Now, be so kind as to tell me how that would be any different than having a raffle of firearms within weeks of a terrible tragedy whereupon two people were killed with a firearm.

Can no one see the irony in that?

I see this raffle as being equivalent to MADD raffling off a keg of beer or the American Lung Association selling tickets to win a year's supply of cigarettes.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (edited 12/3/2008).]
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 13 years ago
"Can no one see the irony in that?"

No, but we can sure see the "aluminy" of your wooden position.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 12/3/2008).]
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Posted by Bob Netherton (+1893) 13 years ago
Or raffling a car two weeks after a tragic accident?

I really don't see a problem in raffling a hunting rifle at this time. If it was an assault rifle or an uzi or even a handgun, yeah, I could see the problem.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 13 years ago
Most people don't see a problem with it because most people don't associate owning a gun with murder, even though some people seem to think that's the only reason for having one.
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Posted by MRH (+1500) 13 years ago
Hi,

I am assuming, maybe incorrectly so, that the raffle was started before the tragic events occurred, and it is now nearing completion.
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Posted by ConnieD (+18) 13 years ago
So, Brian. Are you saying that if there was a tragic car accident in the area, the local car dealers should not be allowed to sell automobiles????
The MCYHA is a very worthwhile organization for youth. For a total of 10 years my husband and myself were involved with the group. It is a sport like any other sport that thrives on many hours of donations of time from many "unsung" parents and volunteers. If it takes fundraiser, raffles, and donations to keep an organization that helps youth going, I say go for it!! Many thanks to Red Rock Sporting Goods for still contributing to the youth in Miles City.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
I know guns are sacrosanct in Miles City, but my point was to illustrate the unfortunate irony of the situation.

In the best of circumstances (murder-free), raffling off weapons seems an odd way to raise money for children. It seems that there are other - dare I say more appropriate - items that can raffled for the benefit of Miles City's youth.
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1350) 13 years ago
I don't think there are too many items, easily gained through donation, with such a wide cross-section of popularity then a hunting rifle in a place like Miles City. I know some of the greatest father-son bonding moments myself and 100% of my immediate friends growing up had with our own Fathers was learning gun-safety, target shooting and finally being trusted to hunt by their side safely.

Having your Father look you in the eye and say "I trust you with my life" carries much further ramifications then can easily be weighed or measured with the naked eye.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
Is this one of those father-son moments, Josh?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/C...index.html

I can think of many things I would rather do with my son (or my father) than kill something.

I know, I know - I hate deceny, children and America.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
I'm sure this kid was having an absolutely WONDERFUL time before things took a slight turn for the worse ...

http://hosted.ap.org/dyna...TE=DEFAULT

Wonder if his last thought was, "Boy, I'm glad my daddy trusts me with this really cool gun ... " ?

The kid in the picture is obviously doing exactly what the Founders had in mind when they were writing the 2nd Amendment - you know, blasting the hell out of something with an M60. I for one, am so thankful that we live in a country where kids can fire a weapon designed for (hunting? no...) killing PEOPLE en masse. (Cue Ronan Tynan)

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (edited 12/4/2008).]
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1350) 13 years ago
If you're trying to compare hunter's safety and hunting with a hunting rifle, to either of those two articles then you lack the intelligence to sit at the same table of debate with me.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
I doubt that, Josh.

Your (surprising) chutzpah aside for a moment, let me say that if the NRA can assert that Americans need any and all firearms (and need them free of any regulation whatsoever) because that's what they believe the 2nd Amendment says, then I can just as fairly state that there is a connection between hunting rifles, Uzis and M60s. What's good for the goose ...

Again, I'm sure the 8-year old kid who accidentally removed the better part of his head with the Uzi was having a wonderful time with his father before the trigger was pulled. Nothing brings family together like bloodlust (and a mine-is-bigger-than-yours contest), after all.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (edited 12/4/2008).]
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Posted by Stone (+1596) 13 years ago
I am still trying to figure out what Hockey has to do with aluminum bats?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 13 years ago
"I am still trying to figure out what Hockey has to do with aluminum bats?"

Well Stone, it appears the silly aluminum bats are loose again "batman Brian's" belfry. And they appear to be somewhat rabid. It's enough to make your "butt puck-er"
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
See Josh - now there's an example of a response from someone who "lacks the intelligence to sit at the same table of debate" with you.

Nothing but love for you, Richard. Nothing but love.
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Posted by marciehoff (+207) 13 years ago
Brian,
FYI the MCYHA gun raffle has been selling tickets since LATE SEPTEMBER, maybe longer, but that is when i purchased mine. Do you propose they return my money and call the whole thing off just to avoid the irony. Before you accuse the MCYHA of holding a gun raffle two weeks after a local tragedy involving a firearm you should get the facts together.

Also, to compare the MCYHA (who happened to have been holding a gun raffle long over two weeks ago) to MADD having a keg raffle is just plain off the wall. You really need to find something else to do.

ERIC HOFF
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Posted by V (+168) 13 years ago
Do you not know it is not the gun that kills but the person or person's holding it. It would be just like the car. In regards to the bat really don't have a reply to that. It is "just" a raffle. People who own guns normally keep them up, people who drive under the influence are just "stupid". The bat thing was a fluke. You are wrong to bring up something that happened along time ago. I think that you need a hug, so in reply to that look in the mirror, wrap your arms around yourself and hug. May god forgive you for being so destructive in your words..
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Posted by V (+168) 13 years ago
[deleted - duplicate]
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Posted by Dan Mowry (+1437) 13 years ago
Brian, since you're so concerned with the death of young Brandon perhaps you should make sure you have Duane and Debbie's blessings before dragging the subject of THEIR child into your chosen arguments?

After all, I'd say their feelings on that matter override yours when you chose to invoke the memory of their son.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
***I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR THE SUPER-SIZED POST (please bear with me and give it a chance)***

V - Your post raises some interesting logic problems. I'd love to have a mature discussion about them, but I have to ask that you (at least temporarily) suspend your believe that I am some evil person who revels in the misfortune of others. The fact that I may see things in a different way than you do does not make me a heartless person in need of intervention. It just means that my opinion differs from yours. I'm more than happy to debate with anyone over a difference of opinion. I'm decidedly less interested in reading about how much of a jerk I am because someone misses my point. Yes, I can be tongue-in-cheek. Yes, I can be acerbic with some of my statements. But you shouldn't confuse sarcasm with malice.

With that out of the way, we can move on to the specific points of your post, V:

1.) "Do you not know it is not the gun that kills but the person or person's holding it?"

Yes, I am aware of that (contrary to Josh's assertion that I don't possess the intelligence to sit at the same table of debate with him). Just for the sake of argument, let me ask you this: Do you think Justin Schiller could have killed Catherine Woods (or himself) with a baseball bat (or another implement)? The simple answer is yes. The just-slightly-less simple answer is that it would have been infinitely more difficult for him to have fatally wounded someone in a parking lot with a baseball bat. Therefore, the tool he had at his disposal (a gun) made the murder possible.

The excuse that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is juvenile and dangerous. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold could not have killed 13 people and wounded 23 others at Columbine with a club/baseball bat/knife/boomerang/bad language/post on a message board/NON-GUN. Seung-Hui Cho could not have killed 32 people at Virginia Tech with "mind bullets" or the stink-eye. (This one is for Josh, since hunting rifles are entirely different things than other guns)- Charles Whitman could not have killed 14 people at the University of Texas with an sling shot, atl-atl or a sharp stick.

To assert that they could have is ridiculous. Yes, they could have hurt people with something other than a gun. But could they have committed the same crime within the same timeframe with a different weapon? No. "But they also could have used a bomb. They tried to use a bomb, but it didn't work!" Again, this is true - but then again, there is no National Bomb Association that rigorously lobbies for the unfettered right to bear bombs, is there?

When people start to see guns as a gift from the heavens and start preaching that guns and their use is beyond question (or attempts at regulation), people start thinking that guns can also solve their problems. The utility of the gun has become disproportunate to its actual value. It's no longer a tool, it's an extension of its owner. The potential for problems increases.

If you give a kid a gun, you make him feel like a man ("Daddy has a gun. Daddy is a grown-up. I have a gun. I must be a grown-up, too."). If a man is a man because of the gun, questioning the gun is tantmount to questioning his manhood. When you question man's manhood, the gun often answers. The potential for problems increases drastically, especially if the owner has other issues.

2.) "It would be just like the car."

Driving a vehicle requires a license. There are restrictions on driving privileges (note they are privileges, NOT rights). Children under a certain age are not allowed to drive. If there were a car show where 8-year old children could sit behind the wheel and drive around in traffic (even if there were a licensed driver sitting next to them), it would be a fairly safe bet that objections would be raised long before a child killed himself with the grown up toy he was foolishly allowed to operate.

Yes, the tragedy at the Massachusetts gun show was an accident. But it was an accident that could - and should - have been avoided had there been a modicum of responsibility when the show was being organized. An 8-year old kid shouldn't be driving down the street in his mommy or daddy's car, and he shouldn't have been shooting an automatic submachine gun.

The main point I have been attempting to make is that guns and children do not mix. Guns aren't toys. Guns have one purpose: to kill. Whether the target is an animal or a human, that purpose remains the same. Adults can be responsible with firearms, but children - are children, and by definition, do not have the same level of responsibility.

Think of it this way - would it be appropriate to raffle off kegs or bottles of liquor for a youth fundraiser? If your answer is "no," then you can see my point. If your answer is "yes," then let me ask you why you believe there is a difference. Guns are for adults. Alcohol is for adults. Both can be enjoyed - RESPONSIBLY - by adults. Neither are for kids. Neither should be for the benefit of kids.

It is my opinion that a fundraiser for the benefit of children should raise money by raffling items that are appropriate for children (and adults alike). If a child can benefit from the proceeds from a fundraiser, I think the child should be able to use the items being raffled in that fundraiser. Sides of beef or other food items, gift certificates, trips to Las Vegas, fishing tackle, electronic equipment, sporting goods - a great many things that aren't guns - would be far more appropriate for kids.

When my children are old enough to understand death, and the irreversibility of the sequence of events that happen once the trigger is pulled, then my children and I can talk about going hunting and using firearms in a responsible manner. Until that time, I do not want my children (nor do I enjoy seeing any children) having money raised for them by raffling items they are too young to fully understand or appreciate.

This brings up another issue: Miles City (and Montana in general) holds guns to be nothing less than sacred. Any discussion regarding guns and their place/usage quickly devolves into a knee-jerk pissing match about the NRA, the Second Amendment, syrupy nostalgia about hunting with daddy and shouts of "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION GOD'S PLAN FOR US!?"

That so few people can see the irony of having a gun raffle so soon after having a gun murder/suicide is troubling. Yes, I understand that the raffle was started long before the shooting. But that people would act so surprised that the irony even exists (and get so angry that anyone would notice) boggles my mind. That brings up ...

3.) "The bat thing was a fluke. You are wrong to bring up something that happened along time ago."

I used the argument because it is familiar to the people on this message board. I would not have used the reference had I been in a discussion somewhere else. Miles City has seen tragedy in the form of baseball bats and firearms. There's a logical (if not direct)connection and a parallel that can be debated.

(In other words, IT'S NOT BECAUSE I'M EVIL OR MEAN-SPIRITED, PEOPLE!)

I am as cognizant as anyone in knowing what my reference to aluminum bats would entail. I have debated until I was figuratively blue in the face (or at least the fingertips) that the "thing was a fluke" and the response to the tragedy was possibly misguided. The counter-argument to my stance on the issue was usually something along the lines of "aluminum bats are evil - how dare you question that, you despicable person!"

What I would like to have explained to me in a rational manner is this: Why was the consensus opinion in Miles City that aluminum bats are the antichrist, yet guns get a free pass? If the argument is that it's irresponsible for youth baseball programs to use aluminum baseball bats BECAUSE CHILDREN CAN (even if it's less likely than a shark attack or a
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Posted by Dan Mowry (+1437) 13 years ago
Very revealing post, Brian.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 13 years ago
Brian, the problem isn't your opinion. It's all in the timing.

Through personal tragedies like this, nobody's looking to hear what Brian's political opinion is on the matter. Nobody involved in this nightmare wonders what Brian (or Rick) thinks.

Times like this don't call for shouted opinions. Trust me, just keep them to yourself at least until people have had time to mourn.
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Posted by ABC (+381) 13 years ago
Brian:

For what it is worth, I agree with you. Some people here aren't able to disconnect logic and emotion; thus thinking in logical terms will get you nowhere with them, because emotion clouds the argument.

Vulcans rule!
ABC
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
Trust me, just keep them to yourself at least until people have had time to mourn.

And if Miles City is on a Perpetual Mourning Cycle?

Thanks, ABC.
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Posted by ABC (+381) 13 years ago
>>The first rule about Brandon Patch is that you do not talk about Brandon Patch!

Agreed. Nowhere have I seen such censorship by the townfolk as I have on this topic. On top of that the family and friend are letting this event affect them to the point of unhealthy morbid obsession, as evidenced by the purpetual shrine at the cemetary. As an atheist, I have to say that if someone truely believe in God and his Infinite Mercy, this loss shouldn't prevent them from moving on. After all, Brandon should be in the presence of eclesiastical beauty...GOD Almighty. What is to continue mourning about that?

ABC

PS...I bought a ticket and have only fired a gun five times in my life. If I win, I'm going to give it away to a friend who will appreciate it. I already have engough OLD (read: unregistered) guns that if I want to creat mayham, I'm set. However, the pharmaceuticals are working well, so that shouldn't be a bother.

Speaking of gun mayhem, I highly recommend renting He Was a Quiet Man. Good movie.

[This message has been edited by ABC (edited 12/6/2008).]
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 13 years ago
ABC,

What does remembering loss have to do with religion? So in your world what happens when someone close to you dies? just chuck them out the door? hope the garbage man picks them up without a $5 charge.

Animals who have no concept of a "god" will mourn a lost love one. Dogs whimpering....... that kind of thing.

just trying to sort "logic from emotion"
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Posted by ABC (+381) 13 years ago
>>So in your world what happens when someone close to you dies?

They are buried buy the least expensive method, no emballming, just simple cremation. No ceremony and morbid pomp n circumstance. A simple marker is placed on the plot for those who wish to visit on rememberance holidays, Memorial Day. I remember them fondly and think of them often, remembering all the ways they impacted my life, good or bad, for each of those experiences with the deceased helped shape me into the person I am, a person that I happend to like.

Maybe you find this interesting, it is from the American Atheist website

Atheism Teaches That...
There is no heavenly father.
Humankind must protect the orphans and foundlings, or they will not be protected.

There is no god to answer prayer.
Man must hear and help man.

There is no hell.
We have no vindictive god or devil to fear or imitate.

There is no atonement or salvation by faith.
We must face the consequences of our acts.

There is no beneficent or malevolent intent in nature.
Life is a struggle against preventable and unpreventable evils. The cooperation of humankind is the only hope of the world.

There is no chance after death to "do our bit."
We must do it now or never.

There is no divine guardian of truth, goodness, beauty, and liberty.
These are attributes of humankind. We must defend them or they will perish from the earth.

ABC
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 13 years ago
ABC,

I'm sure you are a person you happen to like.....not the point


So maybe with their "perpetual shrine" your words...that's what they are doing. remembering him! Maybe your simple marker seems over the top to me but their "perpetual shrine" doesn't. The point is it has nothing to do with religion.

as for all your other mumbo jumbo I could careless you could worship a purple rock for all I care....
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Posted by ABC (+381) 13 years ago
>>So maybe with their "perpetual shrine" your words...that's what they are doing. remembering him! Maybe your simple marker seems over the top to me but their "perpetual shrine" doesn't.

>>The point is it has nothing to do with religion.

Yes it does because if there were no religion involved, then the shrine would not be necessary. A simple marker of rememberance would be sufficient for its intended purpose.

ABC

My point that this level of obsession with death is not health IMHO.

[This message has been edited by ABC (edited 12/6/2008).]
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 13 years ago
So you mean to tell me every atheist marker is the same? None are bigger? Different color?


because if they aren't then religion must be involved. Any change or difference could me something.....


oh and one more thing...let's say they visit everyday with flowers...and you only visit on memorial day with nothing more then your thoughts of how they helped shape you to becoming a person you like, they have religion and you don't? is it the flowers? because I have tulips and I don't use them as a religious symbol.
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Posted by V (+168) 13 years ago
Brian,
In regards to your reply any thing can kill if the person has intention. Be it a slingshot or etc.. That was the point I was making. So if you feel guilty about it that is your problem not mine and I hope that God does forgive you. Have a wonderful day.
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Posted by V (+168) 13 years ago
[This message has been edited by V (edited 12/7/2008).]
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Posted by ABC (+381) 13 years ago
Mike:

Thanks for proving my point.

ABC
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 13 years ago
ABC,

thanks for avoiding the question
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Posted by Scott P (+108) 13 years ago
I really do not understand how this became a religious post ? Famlies deal with the loss of loved ones in various different manners. I know of 2 famlies in Miles City that are still grieving and do certain things at Christmas and birthdays after 20 years( If you know, please don't post their names). My point is, It is none of my business period.. While this site is a public forum, I do not feel names of deceased should be posted here has Brian did. Espicially in the context it was. I thankfully do not recall the names of the tragic incident at the spur being posted .

[This message has been edited by Scott P (edited 12/7/2008).]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 13 years ago
Scott - Why be coy? Pretending that the names weren't known would have served no purpose at all.

Besides, it's not like the information posted here: http://www.stevensonandsons.com/ or here: http://billingsgazette.ne...escity.txt was redacted in any way. Even had the names not been posted in multiple publicly-accessible places, the details are - and have been - public knowledge.

Would omitting the names "Catherine Woods" and "Justin Schiller" change the reality of the situation? You act as though they are gone because I mentioned their names. If playing the ostrich game would undo the tragedy, I would gladly do so and not post any names.

But it won't.

You know this.

I know this.

It's pointless to assume otherwise, Scott.
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Posted by DJS (+100) 12 years ago
Lets get back to the purpose of this post shall we. All of you who would like to buy tickets are encouraged to do so. Any of you who do not wish to buy tickets should be quiet. The last time I checked typically a finger has to pull the trigger in order for a gun to go off. I have several guns and none of them have ever killed anything, including targets without a human's assistance. A little bit of common sense goes a long way.
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Posted by Mike Zier (+132) 12 years ago
yeah sorry I got of the topic with ABC--but were done now
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
On a somewhat-related topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28116693

I wonder if James Brady is on the waiting list.
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Posted by Bob Netherton (+1893) 12 years ago
I think James Brady died.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
He's still alive.
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Posted by Ord Compton (+11) 12 years ago
So, what time and where is the raffle? I bought a ticket several weeks ago... I'd like that Kimber .45
[This message has been edited by Ord Compton (edited 12/11/2008).]

[This message has been edited by Ord Compton (edited 12/11/2008).]
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Posted by Keli A. (+103) 12 years ago
Ord, the raffle is tonight at 6pm at the Agri Sports Comlpex at the fairgroungs!! Dress warm it's going to be cold. There will be chili and other things to munch on while you wait for the raffle. It is the Open House for the Hockey Assoc., so come on out and support the kids! THANK YOU to all of you who purchesed a ticket! It is VERY appreciated by all who are involved.
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Posted by Ord Compton (+11) 12 years ago
Thanks Keli, I just might show up
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