Link 1: http://www.pensitoreview....-be-there/

Veep Richard "Dick" Cheney stating that President Bush has borne the brunt of the sacrifices due to the Iraq War.

Key excerpt:

Noting the burden placed on military families, the vice president said the biggest burden is carried by President George W. Bush, who made the decision to commit US troops to war

"The president carries the biggest burden, obviously," Cheney said. "He's the one who has to make the decision to commit young Americans, but we are fortunate to have a group of men and women, the all-volunteer force, who voluntarily put on the uniform and go in harm's way for the rest of us."



Link 2: http://www.politico.com/n...10314.html

Key Excerpt

For the first time, Bush revealed a personal way in which he has tried to acknowledge the sacrifice of soldiers and their families: He has given up golf.

"I don't want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander in chief playing golf," he said. "I feel I owe it to the families to be in solidarity as best as I can with them. And I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."



Worst. President. Ever.

[This message has been edited by Bob L. (edited 5/13/2008).]

Comparing Obama to Jimmy Carter, did you think of that all yourself?

I'd take a hundred Jimmuh Carters over one dubya.

"But I'm afraid of the amount of damage a nanny stater can do in that amount of time."







I'll take my chances...

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (edited 5/14/2008).]

Apparently it doesn't count, Bridgier. They're neither Americans nor Christians so doing that kind of stuff to others is SUH-WELL.

We're losing sight of the subject of the thread (and yes, I'm guilty of drifting off-topic too . . . Sorry Bob L)

So come on folks . . . let's get back on track and stay focused on Bob's topic.

What about the sacrifice Bush has made for the war effort and what he owes to the families of those in the military?

Since 9/11, W has only taken 300 or so days of vacation time. You sure gotta give the man the credit he's due.

And as Commander in Chief - the man who holds ultimately responsible for the military, the Mission Accomplished Dude - we had yet more evidence just last week of his administration's concern for military families with the crematorium thing. Again, you gotta give the man the credit he's due.

Oh, Rick's just pissed because his "Permanent Republican Majority" barely lasted an election cycle. Turns out people don't like living in a bannana republic.

He not only deserves credit for this huge sacrifice, but also for having the immense courage to ask so much of Americans following 911.
Don't forget to keep shopping, everybody!

[This message has been edited by Kyle L. Varnell (edited 5/14/2008).]

Sure it's easy for his critics to cast aspersions at W . . . but if we compare his sacrifice and leadership to that of past, wartime Commanders in Chief, I think it's easy enough to honestly give W the credit he's due. Just look at the likes of: Polk, Lincoln, Wilson, or FDR and it's plain to see how exceptional W is as a wartime leader.

And yes I know, it's difficult to draw an honest comparison between W's wartime Presidency and, oh let's say, Lincoln or FDR; theirs were, after all, wars of short duration.


And I think it's important to keep in mind, it's not just that he's spent 300 or so vacation days NOT playing golf. He's also sacrificed some of his time while on vacation to support the cause.

I'm sure we all remember when he stopped by the Army hospital in Texas (while on vacation) to visit with the wounded there. Remember? It was when he visited the amputee ward and told the men there of the wood splinter that got him while he was cutting firewood at his ranch (while on vacation). Kind of chokes you up, doesn't it?

Bob,

He was a member of the Skull & Bones:

List Of Skull & Bones Members
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...es_members

But according to this list:

List Of Freemasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...eemasons#B

A member he is not.

Actually, Kyle, when I read he was a member of the Free Masons, I didn't put lot of stock in it. Plus...What's the big deal with the Free Masons, anyway? Aren't the Shriners involved with the Masons?
I think the Shriner's greatest crimes are wearing odd outfits, driving small vehicles and supporting a children's hospital (which, I understand, provides excellent service and research).

Shriners wear a fez. The fez is awesome.

My Dad was a Shriner and had that little hat with the tassle, and you are suppose to bury them in it, but sadly we forgot and didn't get it done. I always felt bad about that. Hope it wasn't that important.

Howdy:

Yup. The fez.

If I ever decided to be a Shriner (unlikely), it would be solely due to the fact that I could wear a fez...

This could be your lucky day Bob and you wouldn't have to join up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shrin...dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-MUS...dZViewItem

Hal:

That is freaking awesome!

*hitting self on forehead*

Why didn't I think of the E-Bay?????

So what's the angle, Bridgier?

Hurricanes won't happen under a Democratic Reign?
Clinton-era levies will no longer break?

and contrary to popular belief, history has shown that American withdrawl does not lead to a decrease in violence.

It only brings a decrease in pictures, which helps keep the conscience clean, I guess.

Hurricanes won't happen under a Democratic Reign? Yes. They will happen. But a new President (either McCain or Obama) will not have a bunch of clueless cronies running FEMA.

Clinton-era levies will no longer break? The New Orleans levees were built under Clinton???? That may well be the most ignorant statement you've ever made. Which is a great accomplishment for you. Pat yourself on the back, Ricky!

[This message has been edited by Bob L. (edited 5/15/2008).]

Bob,

Have you considered a Pickelhaube?
http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-G...dZViewItem

Probably too freudian. LOL

"and contrary to popular belief, history has shown that American withdrawl does not lead to a decrease in violence."

How did you get that from pictures of torture and abuse being performed by Americans?

http://www.chron.com/disp...53942.html
Truth one of the casualties of Katrina

Furthermore, the levees that were breached and flooded New Orleans- 17th Street Canal Levee and London Avenue Canal Levee - had already been fortified by the Army Corps to category 3 strength, with no additional work planned or even requested, the Army Corps said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...reet_Canal

An upgrade of the Canal levees, floodwalls, and bridges began in 1999. The Canal was considered in good shape at the start of the 2005 Atlantic Hurricane Season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...enue_Canal

A major project of upgrading the floodwalls and bridges along the Canal was begun in 1999.

I'll leave it to you to research who was President in 1999.

Bridgier, I did so by looking at your photos in the context of larger history.



A history which looks much different then the spoon-fed BDS variety you're being given by Keith Olbermann or "Chimpy in Charge" or whoever.

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." -President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina

-----------------
Ricky, I'll leave it to you to research who was President from 2001 to 2005.

Oh, nice use of Wikipedia, too.

[This message has been edited by Bob L. (edited 5/16/2008).]

[This message has been edited by Bob L. (edited 5/16/2008).]

"Bridgier, I did so by looking at your photos in the context of larger history."

History's pretty large I'll admit, so you'll probably have to give me a bit more than that to go on. From whence came your tower of skulls? The Killing Fields? A death camp? Victims of the Ustashi? Vietnam? The anthropology department at Washington State?

Anyways, if your larger point is that we torture people because otherwise the terrorists win, then I'd say they already have, but if what you're trying to say is "All flesh is grass", then I guess I can't argue with that.

I may not be the historian that Hal is, but I know my Dalmatians from my Dacians, so please don't try to convince me that cryptic non-sequitors and handwaving qualifies you as an expert on The Clash Of Civilizations, or the Eternal Struggle, or whatever self-serving synthesis you're buying at the moment.

Also, have fun at the BHS.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (edited 5/16/2008).]

I think that is his ticket queue at the help desk he works at.

Rick is great at contradictions. He's very concerned about saving people he believes are going to hell.

I thought that was Richard's concern? Ricks too? Hmmm.

Wow, Bob. First I've said the "most ignorant" thing I've ever said (which turns out to be true). Then you attack my reference to wikipedia, while pasting a tired old quote parroted on sites like...

http://whiteprivilege.com...own-words/
Whiteprivelege.com - Treason to Whiteness is loyalty to humanity.

Looks like you Obamians think in tight circles

But let's look at your new BDS-support-group rant...

Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina

Six days before Sept 1 would have been August 26th. As you can see here http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/a...013.shtml?

The National Hurricane Center on that very day was forecasting that the hurricane had a greater likelihood of striking Pensacola, FL, nearly 180 miles away from New Orleans.

As is the trick with Hurricanes. The expertise comes less in figuring out whether a Hurricane will cause "damage" but where exactly that Hurricane will cause it. Now I suspect that your advanced-stage BDS might cause you to attribute supernatural powers to non-Bush administrations... ie being able to snap fingers and having a 6 foot thick concrete levee constructed all the way from Tampa to Galveston on a couple days' notice. But the fact remains that in reality, on Aug 26th (six days before Sept 1) it was a crap shoot trying to determine where Katrina was going to land.

And it's interesting that you say somehow Bush should have known the Levees would fail, when even the Army Corps of Engineers admitted to being surprised the levees failed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13078978/

Four breaches in canals that run through New Orleans were caused by foundation failures that were "not considered in the original design of these structures," the report said. Those breaches caused two-thirds of the city's flooding.

But of course, a President Clinton would have had the structural diagrams for all of these levees spread out along his desk, along with soil samples, correcting the Army's engineers when their plans didn't look quite right according to his calculus. Oh wait, I guess he didn't, because the levees that broke were designed while he was in office. Uh, but I'm sure Bush is still to blame somehow. Better delve back into the WhitePrivelege archives to figure out why.

Bridgier, you're reading too much in.

You showed pictures of the unfortunate, but relatively limited, abuse of American Power.

I showed a picture of the more devastating, and much more common abuse of an American Power vacuum.

Usually the argument isn't that we do more harm than good. Usually it's said that it isn't worth the cost. Your perspective is unique to me in that way.

Umm... not sure what I missed, but how were we supposed to know that Bridgier's pictures were of American's torturing others? I wasn't sure how they were relevant but that would have never drawn that conclusion.

So.... again, which pile of skulls is this supposed to represent?

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (edited 5/16/2008).]

Ok, here I go.

Wow, I never thought I would see America come full circle, but back in the 60's it was the hippies that said "America Love it, Or leave it" now I think that phrase could be McCains slogan.

It just seems that today people olny see what they want to see, and I guess i just have to face the fact that I now live in a country where demeaning the actions of anyone in uniform is cool.

I would like to see an earthquake hit San Francisco, a big one.
I would bet people wouldn't protest the Army being there.
This nation is becomeing very, very ungratefull.

Ever watch Lawrance of Arabia? At the end of W.W.I. When the Arab nation finnaly got out of the control of the differnt controling empires it was chaos. It remaind that way for years. That is what happens after years of domination ends. If anything I think we should have more of a occupation force over there and less media.
More like Europe at the end of W.W.II

By the way, F.D.R. did not give up much during W.W.II
granted, he did not play alot of golf to begin with.

[This message has been edited by ABE (edited 5/17/2008).]

http://craphound.com/litt...rother.htm

"So.... again, which pile of skulls is this supposed to represent?"

Maybe Rick will explain.

I still want to know how one was supposed to know that the pictures Bridgier posted were of Americans torturing others?

OR were they really just "hyperbole".

ABE - "America, love it or leave it" was in response to the hippies, not BY the hippies. I think you'll find it's the same type of people saying it today as back then. Essentially, it says, "if you don't like the way things are, tough [email protected]".

"Ever watch Lawrance of Arabia? At the end of W.W.I. When the Arab nation finnaly got out of the control of the differnt controling empires it was chaos."

Yes, the middle east was in chaos - primarily because the British LIED to the Arabian leadership and told them they would support middle eastern independance. That didn't happen, and the west happily carved up the region into colonies and spheres of influence, the consequences of which are still being felt today.

"how were we supposed to know that Bridgier's pictures were of American's torturing others?"

Abu Ghraib & Guantanamo Richard, they've been in the news a bit lately.

Perhaps the disconnect comes from watching just Fox and Rush Limbaugh.

Sorry, I don't watch Fox or Rush. And I don't listen to National Panhander's Radio, either.

In another thread you said you were an avid watcher of Rush, so I am glad to hear you have changed your viewing habits. LOL

Rush is not on TV.

"National Panhander's Radio"

That's funny Richard.

Did you think that one up yourself . . . or did you hear it on Limppaw? ;-)

Since I don't listen to him, I wouldn't know, but shall always look to you as the expert on where to find him.

Howdy,

Here you go:

Rush Limbaugh stations in Montana

Billings
KBUL
970
10a-1p

Bozeman
KMMS
1450
10a-1p

Butte
KXTL
1370
10a-1p

Hamilton
KLYQ
1240
10a-1p

Helena
KBLL
1240
10a-12n/12:30p-1:30p

Libby
KTNY-FM
101.7
10a-1p

Missoula
KGVO
1290
10a-1p

Whitefish
KJJR
880
10a-1p

I think this may be on in reruns. Either that or get it on a BitTorrent site.

The Rush Limbaugh Show
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103531/

Enjoy!

I knew I smelled something stinky in the air!

For the record, I have followed President Bush's lead and given up golf as well. In times like this the American people don't need to see me tearing huge holes in pristine grass, swearing, pulling hair out of my head, and throwing clubs and such. Especially when I have to pay $50 for this experience.

Gee thanks Kyle, you are too kind.

Thank you for starting this discusssion. When I heard these comments, I was completely floored. While giving up golf may seem like a noble sacrifice to our brilliant President, I have to disagree. I wonder if he even considered how families like us, who had a loved one who made the ultimate sacrifice, would feel. And anyone who makes any attempt to justify his comments, should think about us and the 4000+ families like us out there.

Well said, Erica, and I completely concur!!!