All readers can accept this or reject, I could not ever care less.
IT IS HOWEVER 2000% TRUTH.

Article II of the U.S. Constitution and the 12th Amendment handle it all.
IT IS WHAT IT IS. The Founding Fathers **** devised**** a long series of checks and balances to provide presidential elections were as P R I S T I N E
as humanly possible. They defied the *** crooks **** who owned and controlled and ran all of.....Crooked Merry Old England.
What EXACTLY and PRECISELY will happen :
A. State governors will certify their respective state electors. (Biden will "seem" to be winning}.
B. All certificates get to the Congress and the Speaker of the House and VP preside over their tabulations, and, certification.
+++++++++ When VP Pence declares...….."Fraud"...…….everything halts. ++++++++
C. Then it goes to each state for another REAL election.
1. There are 26 red states and only 22 blue states.
{Two {2} states "share" their electors }.
EACH STATE ONLY HAS ONE {1] VOTE.
Which means in English to smart Americans...……."All of the Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff crap from California only has ONE {1] vote.
Thereby...……..D J T wins in a contested " States Election".
Al Gore was the sitting VP and had to preside over the process handing his opponent, George W. Bush, the WIN.
"There is no right way to do the wrong thing"...…….{{{{{ Ask FOOL Hunter Biden }}}}

Am I the only one here who wishes Ship would start taking his meds again?

I am probably in the minority but "THE CONSTITUTION" is a document lost to antiquity. Not unlike the authors (all 200 plus years dead) revision is needed. The electoral college is a relic and should be scattered in the ash bin along with the stagnations that occupy the house and senate oaken seats. It is high time we joined the other enlightened and developed countries of the world, in the twenty first century.

Further, it is time to be resolute in our commitment to the hungry, needy, infirm and elderly. Regardless of how an elected official is found receiving money from lobbyist or special interest groups, that should be prosecutable. We sure as hell don't need one or two years of campaigning before an election and all candidates should have a limited campaign budget. Six Months before election is enough and three months would be plenty at half the cost.

Pardon my ramble but I'm tired of the flag waving, John Wayne, frightened hillbillies that have infested the planet. OK, I will answer. Bring it

We all have a right to have and opinion. If you don't like what he wrote don't read it. So of you need to be on oxygen. Might help your think process.

Jerry, dear boy, glad to see you join the fray. What pearls of wisdom can you offer on my diatribe? Let me help you out. "Diatribe" has the same meaning as vituperation but you of course knew that. I look forward to our continued verbal joust. Mount your steed, get on your keyboard and get busy. As always I look forward to your sparkling wit and repartee. Cheers

Jerry e wrote:

We all have a right to have and opinion. If you don't like what he wrote don't read it. So of you need to be on oxygen. Might help your think process.

Trust us -- we DON'T read it.

I agree with Tucker. The notion put forward that somehow "founding fathers" and iron-age holy books have more meaningful guidance or wisdom in our technological age than our own advanced understanding is simply balderdash.

We need to come to grips with the fact that our constitution is very outdated and written for the benefit of racist slaveowners. We need to come to grips with the fact that the bible is a man-made book that is FULL of error. Interpreting life through ancient antiquated documents like the bible or the racist writings of the constitution and federalist papers, is itself a form of slavery, from which we all need to be freed.

And to be blunt, Joe Biden isn't really a step forward. He is at best a step back to what we called "normal" in 2015. He is merely a placeholder until enough of his generation die off that we can have a more progress way of life. (Apologies for being harsh-sometimes the truth hurts.)

Honestly, until we can free ourselves from the slavery of antiquated thinking and looking BACK at iron-age religious texts and racist-writings of so-called "founding-fathers" for FORWARD guidance, we will never enjoy the possibilities and the pleasures that come with an equitable society.

[Edited by Richard Bonine (12/1/2020 9:51:23 AM)]

Rob, first of all, Mike Pence can not just declare the Electoral college vote invalid or fraudulent. He has to abide by the results. Also thank you for pointing out that Al Gore was a more stand up guy than our current VP or Whitehouse occupant,

Richard Bonine wrote:

I agree with Tucker. The notion put forward that somehow "founding fathers" and iron-age holy books have more meaningful guidance or wisdom in our technological age than our own advanced understanding is simply balderdash.

We need to come to grips with the fact that our constitution is very outdated and written for the benefit of racist slaveowners. We need to come to grips with the fact that the bible is a man-made book that is FULL of error. Interpreting life through ancient antiquated documents like the bible or the racist writings of the constitution and federalist papers, is itself a form of slavery, from which we all need to be freed.

And to be blunt, Joe Biden isn't really a step forward. He is at best a step back to what we called "normal" in 2015. He is merely a placeholder until enough of his generation die off that we can have a more progress way of life. (Apologies for being harsh-sometimes the truth hurts.)

Honestly, until we can free ourselves from the slavery of antiquated thinking and looking BACK at iron-age religious texts and racist-writings of so-called "founding-fathers" for FORWARD guidance, we will never enjoy the possibilities and the pleasures that come with an equitable society.

[Edited by Richard Bonine (12/1/2020 9:51:23 AM)]

So you're saying abnormal is the new normal. I liked the old normal better then the new normal . Or the old normal become the new abnormal. Now is it the old abnormal be come the new normal. It like doing the new common core math .

Jerry E, old sofa,

If I were to say that you are the supreme, grand master of the quote device that would be an understatement. If I understand correctly we should all get back to God and respect our elected officials. Would that make it all better? Perhaps you are right and I am a socialist SOB. I don't know. Try and explain it to me and defend your position. Use complete sentences. Good post, Richard, cheers.

Ship's 2000% truth is consistent with Trump's 1000% match your contribution to his con every nickel while I still can from you suckers election defense fund.

Those of you who call the constitution a relic and an outdated item to be disposed of are an insult to yourselves and your fellow citizens. The hundreds of thousands of men and women who have fought and died to give and protect your freedoms and liberties would beg to differ with your "enlightened and developed" ideologue. The very document you criticize is the one that gives you the inalienable rights to speak such garbage. As critical as you are of USA, I don't understand why you stay here, there are plenty of countries whose views align with your own that you can go to- oh wait, that's right your an American you don't want to or have to leave, you LIKE being an American because of all the freedoms you enjoy, thank your Constitution for that, the Bill of Rights and the founding fathers, they were far wiser than you. Ask the refugees that leave Cuba and foreign shores why they left to come here...and you yearn to make us like there. Don't give me your self righteous sugar coated "enlightened and developed" views, they are crap.
Slavery was abolished long ago and rightfully so, by the republicans I might add. To make the argument that the constitution is a racial relic is to try to play the race card into a modern movement that has no bearing. There are modern racial issues (not slavery) and what you are doing is trying to use a modern argument based on an eradicated system to change the constitution fundamentally for other more unrelated sinister purposes. Don't try to justify your intentions with a false facade. You should be ashamed.

And yet, it's been amended 27 times.

You throw that out there Bridgier like you're proving it was a faulty document - It wasn't. The first 10 were Bill of Rights and they were added because from the get -go the founders wanted more concrete individual rights defined , in fact that is what many of the amendments are - the addition of individual rights. That doesn't mean there was anything incorrect with the constitution itself. Counting out the 18th and 21st amendments as they were to establish prohibition and then repeal it. The electoral college is to keep the voice of the minority in the election - so that New York and California don't dictate every outcome. Libs want them to dictate the outcome, no wonder they don't like the electoral college...they are always self serving.

I throw that out there like it means the system the document regulates can be found lacking and there is a mechanism to adjust it as needs arise.

Why should rural america get special treatment? Why should I be forced to subsidize a way of life that's not economically viable? Use them bootstraps!

[Edited by Bridgier (12/1/2020 8:32:21 PM)]

You like to eat don't you Bridgier? Pull up your bootstraps! Rural America feeds Metropolitan America....America needs rural America, how naive are you? If rural America, Farmers, stopped growing food the cities would start eating each other....rural America earns its voice in its government.

meh.

[Edited by Bridgier (12/1/2020 9:33:12 PM)]

Ronaldr

1. "The hundreds of thousands that fought and died for my freedom of speech."
I am a vietnam veteran that fought for the oil and petroleum interests and the fat old men and politicians that profited from it. I didn't know that at the time. I was seventeen. It wasn't enough that the French made all they could from 1947 -1954, we figured there was a buck to be made so we sent our "advisors and "peace keeping force" in. Winning hearts and minds" with napalm. Ho Chi Minh left a comfortable life in Paris to return to His home and defend it. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc, ad nauseum are continuations of Amerikans refusing to acknowledge the reality of young men fallen victims and fodder for old mens wars and capital gain.

2. The electoral college.
One man one vote. It doesn't matter one bit if it's Cali or appalachia.

3. You should be ashamed
I'm not.

4. "I don't understand why you stay here, there are plenty of countries whose views align with your own that you can go to."
My country love it or leave it. Ah yes, the battle cry of people that don't think the world exists beyond these borders. The people that are myopic when it comes to human suffering. Yes I do exercise my freedom of speech and freedom from religion.

ronaldr wrote:

Those of you who call the constitution a relic and an outdated item to be disposed of are an insult to yourselves and your fellow citizens. The hundreds of thousands of men and women who have fought and died to give and protect your freedoms and liberties would beg to differ with your "enlightened and developed" ideologue. The very document you criticize is the one that gives you the inalienable rights to speak such garbage. As critical as you are of USA, I don't understand why you stay here, there are plenty of countries whose views align with your own that you can go to- oh wait, that's right your an American you don't want to or have to leave, you LIKE being an American because of all the freedoms you enjoy, thank your Constitution for that, the Bill of Rights and the founding fathers, they were far wiser than you. Ask the refugees that leave Cuba and foreign shores why they left to come here...and you yearn to make us like there. Don't give me your self righteous sugar coated "enlightened and developed" views, they are crap.
Slavery was abolished long ago and rightfully so, by the republicans I might add. To make the argument that the constitution is a racial relic is to try to play the race card into a modern movement that has no bearing. There are modern racial issues (not slavery) and what you are doing is trying to use a modern argument based on an eradicated system to change the constitution fundamentally for other more unrelated sinister purposes. Don't try to justify your intentions with a false facade. You should be ashamed.

Now some one understands what I'm getting at. And lot of people would understand that what is normal too But we do need to get back where their was a government that is ran by the people. No where about what's going to happen when Joe gets into office he will destroy what we call normal.

Meh must be Bridgier speak for " I am naive and yield" and Tucker, I don't know if you've ever thought about it but have you ever looked at it from the perspective that the more "modern and enlightened" we become in our thinking the more wars are fought for as you seem to argue "profit for old men" ...WW1 and WW2 were in response by our country and allies partnered to fight a dictatorship that was hell-bent on the domination of; first their own continent and then the rest of the world.... Argue what you will, capital gains are always made in wars by someone, that doesn't negate the fact that we'd be talking either German or Japanese if America hadn't entered WW1 or WW2.

"Tucker: 4. "I don't understand why you stay here, there are plenty of countries whose views align with your own that you can go to."
My country love it or leave it. Ah yes, the battle cry of people that don't think the world exists beyond these borders. The people that are myopic when it comes to human suffering. Yes I do exercise my freedom of speech and freedom from religion."

Your statement is a cop-out through and through -I am well aware of the world beyond our borders- many countries have no protective constitutions or human rights and the result is mass human suffering- yet you criticize and want to do away with the one we have that helps protect us, but yet you live under its comforts and exercise its privileges and rights. You like trying to use big words chiding Jerry e. - look up the word "hypocrite" but I suspect you already know its meaning.

Tucker Bolton wrote:

Jerry E, old sofa,

If I were to say that you are the supreme, grand master of the quote device that would be an understatement. If I understand correctly we should all get back to God and respect our elected officials. Would that make it all better? Perhaps you are right and I am a socialist SOB. I don't know. Try and explain it to me and defend your position. Use complete sentences. Good post, Richard, cheers.

No you don't need to worship God . But let us be free to worship God .we should have the right to do so . Owner country on religious freedom. But people what to take that away. It must be not liking being under conviction. Or that don't want to change their life style. It's a lot easier for me to go to a believer of God funeral then one that is not. And as a far as being a socialist that's fine with me .So normal to me is not what going on now. As what I'm seeing we are about to lose more then our freedom. But a normal way of live.

Meh is, I can argue with the common clay of the new west, or I can go look at bike porn. One of those is a healthier option for everything save my bank account.

Ronaldr

I agree with you, WW2 was a noble endeavour. My father was shot down over Nuremberg and spent the last eleven months in a stalag luft. As far as WWl, the assassination of archduke Ferdinand was just an excuse for old men in power to start the most brutal war in modern history.

You are absolutely correct about my discourse with Jerry e. I am condescending when addressing him. It is a character flaw that I recognize that I am wrong and will not continue with it. I only hoped that he would defend his posts.

I appreciate your posts as they are well stated and defendable. The art of conversation is all but extinct due to lines that have been drawn in the sand. That is just sad. As long as nothing changes, nothing changes.

Jerry E, I apologize.

What exactly do you you mean when you talk about people trying to take away our religious freedom JerryE?The constitution talks about freedom of religion-to me that means any and all religions.I am a believer,but I believe athiests have the right to not believe.That is why separation of church and state is vital."My God is better than your God" has led to millions of senseless killings.

TheDude wrote:

What exactly do you you mean when you talk about people trying to take away our religious freedom JerryE?The constitution talks about freedom of religion-to me that means any and all religions.I am a believer,but I believe athiests have the right to not believe.That is why separation of church and state is vital."My God is better than your God" has led to millions of senseless killings.

It was intended that the government could not inter fear with the church. No matter what religion you are or not. by the way Stalin was a atheists

It was intended that the government could not inter fear with the church. No matter what religion you are or not. by the way Stalin was a atheists

It was also intended that the church not interfere with the government.

The Jeffersonian construct was to build a wall (hypothetical, unlike tRumps) between government and and religion. Jerry e, keep in mind that socialism is a philosophy, not a religion. It does not belong to Russia. Far too many amerikans immediately jump to the repressive, brutal, communist rule of Stalin, Khrushchev and I fear that we Currently have another murderous SOB in Putin. That is not socialism. Millions of individuals embrace socialism and dozens of countries are are socialist ruled.

Okay, back to religion. Somehow amerika has fallen to the belief that "in god we trust" is an amerikan tenant. It isn't. It appeared on our currency after it was approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The words "under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1956. This is revisionist history, at best. Sadly, it has become systemic in our culture.

Far too many linear thinkers and far too few critical thinkers. Peace

[Edited by Tucker Bolton (12/4/2020 9:53:04 AM)]

I guess specifically to Tucker but to anyone who wants to answer, I am curious which countries qualify as the other enlightened and developed countries that we need to join? Based on your last comments, I assume they are the Socialist countries. I looked through the list of Socialist countries on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/...ist_states) and am not sure I understand how the hungry, needy, infirm and elderly are better served in those countries than they are in the United States currently.

As far as Socialism (or Capitalism for that matter) goes, I am always a little confused on calling it a philosophy. Both Capitalism and Socialism are defined social and political structures encompassing a variation of philosophies. Both systems are studied extensively in economics. There are abbreviated discussions of the two structures all over the internet. An example is https://www.investopedia....ialism.asp. To switch from our current capitalist structure to a socialist structure would likely require revolution. Or are you suggesting expanding a mixed society? If so, how?

As an aside, on the IN GOD WE TRUST discussion, the first known citation of a similar phrase being used as a motto for the United States would have been the fourth stanza of “The Defence of Fort M'Henry” (later titled "The Star Spangled Banner") in 1812. The specific wording is "And this be our motto - "In God is our trust,"". According to the US Treasury https://www.treasury.gov/...trust.aspx the phrase first appeared on coinage in 1864.

Also, can you explain your thinkers comment? I have known linear thinkers that are great critical thinkers. I've known lateral thinkers that were great critical thinkers. I've also known linear and lateral thinkers that couldn't provide a rationale for their thoughts.

Steve, You are right I made the mistake of comparing it to religion. It is a political construct that I embrace philosophically. I say philosophically because I am aware that the US is to steeped in the past to embrace such a radical concept.

The socialist and socialist democracies that I admire are scandinavian, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden. They pay for health, education, welfare and education through taxation.

I am a second generation American on both both sides with English linage going back to the fifteenth century. I have tried my best to like GB's brand of socialism but it is such flawed mixture of imperialism and religious bigotry that I can't wrap my mind around it.

I find lateral and critical thinking in unison for the largest part but find linear thinking having too few exits. I suspect that I am a linear thinker when it comes to the "in God We trust" issue. You have researched it further than I. My statement was based on my recollections. One day it was on our money and then it wasn't. The same with the pledge.

Thanks for bringing me to task.

Tucker, I find it interesting that there is so much belief in the US that the countries you mentioned are democratic socialists. All of these countries do a great deal of communications on how they are definitely not socialist (https://www.lifeinnorway....socialism/ - I get a kick out of the Cuddly Capitalism quote). The former prime minister of Norway actually travels the world lecturing about their government and economic structures. In fact, I believe it was his meeting with Bernie Sanders in early 2016 that caused Bernie's February 2016 tirade on being tired of being lectured on international politics.

Virtually all of the countries mentioned (including Great Britain) are
Constitutional Monarchy's with constitutions predating the U.S. Of the countries mentioned, I am only familiar with Sweden's attempt to convert to Democratic Socialism that lasted from the 1960's to the 1990's. You might want to take some time and read the effects on Sweden (dig more into the Scandinavian research). Otherwise capitalism and free markets have been pretty absolute in Scandanavia since before Adam Smith.

As far as the tax rates and the "free" items, I am in agreement with the vast majority of the research that states a great deal of the success is due to the culture. It is a culture we do not have. Culture cannot be voted on or mandated.

My understanding of thinking is based on reaching a goal. A linear thinker can use their current knowledge to work a step-by-step process that gets to the goal. A lateral thinker uses knowledge and instinct to see multiple routes to the goal and side challenges or opportunities to the routes. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Critical thinking is the ability to examine your knowledge and/or instincts and constantly seek new knowledge/instincts to see if your current knowledge and instincts are valid, to see if there are better (hidden) routes, if the goals need to change and/or if the goals are even worthwhile to pursue.

Steve,

As far as the tax rates and the "free" items, I am in agreement with the vast majority of the research that states a great deal of the success is due to the culture. It is a culture we do not have. Culture cannot be voted on or mandated

Sadly, culture cannot be legislated or mandated. If it were that would be the new line drawn in the sand. My dream would be to see if there are better routes to change the culture. I think that it would be worthwhile to pursue. It would be almost if not impossible in the US. Taxation is a dirty word and the perception of being controlled is terrifying in our current state. *Mostly, I think it is because the art of dialog has been lost.

Okay, forget my idea of socialism. I will pursue your suggestion re further reading about scandinavian countries. I'm glad I didn't mention Cuba. I have vacillated between Che Guevara and Mohandas Gandhi, philosophically, regarding change. I suppose my early mindset came from my participation in vietnam war and going to college in the seventies after discharge. No need for further discussion on this. I know how this turned out for everyone involved. However, there is some interesting reading on Castro's attempts to align with America immediately after the revolution. I may be seventy-five but I am not too old to learn, I hope.

* Perhaps not, cheers

Tucker,

I apologize, but I would like to throw out your comment of "forget my idea of socialism". Not my goal. My goal was after that. Getting you to read further about Scandinavian countries (especially from the Scandinavian perspective). A critical thinker should view all things with a bit of skepticism and seek further insight. I would love to get your perspective on what you read and how you take it. Maybe we can discuss further

I am familiar with the philosophies of Che Guevara and Gandhi. I am also familiar with the post Cuban revolution happenings that probably forced F. Castro's hand. I am curious if ronaldr and Jerry e are familiar with the McCarthy era, post McCarthy repercussions, the view from outside the United States, the view of our founding fathers on freedom of speech, etc. I would love to hear one of them expound on the actual writings of Castro or Guevara from the immediate pre and post Cuban revolution.

I apologize for singling you out, but I used to enjoy coming to this site to get a multi-view perspective from my home area. It seem that lately all I get is "I'm right, you're an *%^? idiot" from both sides (not just from this sight). I figured you would be the most likely one to actually step up to the actual challenge.

Steve,

If you read the second sentence in my last paragraph you will find,

I will pursue your suggestion re further reading about scandinavian countries.

I will.

I suspect that ronaldr or jerry E have dropped out and will not be joining this thread again. They bring out my worst. You have no doubt noticed that I am prone to condescension. It is a character flaw. I hope, futile as it may be, to elicit a response. The response that I get is a repetition of the SOS. It is a frustrating waste of time and effort. If they are reading this post it would be interesting to have them weigh in on the McCarthy era, post McCarthy repercussions and expound on the writings of Castro or Guevara from the immediate pre and post Cuban revolution. Hello boys are you out there?

Steve, I don't know who or where you are but I am pleased that you singled me out. This is what I had hoped for in an exchange of ideas, a conversation. Opposing views are only important if they are brought into the light, exchanged, massaged and considered. You are a real mensch.

[Edited by Tucker Bolton (12/5/2020 7:45:52 PM)]

Tucker Bolton wrote:

Steve,

If you read the second sentence in my last paragraph you will find,

I will pursue your suggestion re further reading about scandinavian countries.

I will.

I suspect that ronaldr or jerry E have dropped out and will not be joining this thread again. They bring out my worst. You have no doubt noticed that I am prone to condescension. It is a character flaw. I hope, futile as it may be, to elicit a response. The response that I get is a repetition of the SOS. It is a frustrating waste of time and effort. If they are reading this post it would be interesting to have them weigh in on the McCarthy era, post McCarthy repercussions and expound on the writings of Castro or Guevara from the immediate pre and post Cuban revolution. Hello boys are you out there?

Steve, I don't know who or where you are but I am pleased that you singled me out. This is what I had hoped for in an exchange of ideas, a conversation. Opposing views are only important if they are brought into the light, exchanged, massaged and considered. You are a real mensch.

[Edited by Tucker Bolton (12/5/2020 7:45:52 PM)]

Maybe it would help to play your banjo before you respond to Ronald or my posts

(Evil laughter) Bwaaaahahahaha. Drops mic.

Damn it, I said that I would stop.

I hear a banjo playing whenever I read one of Jerry's posts.

It's playing the theme from Deliverance.

The only Banjo playing I want to hear is by John Hartford in his song Gentle On My Mind. RIP John Hartford.

Tucker Bolton wrote:

(Evil laughter) Bwaaaahahahaha. Drops mic.

Damn it, I said that I would stop.

I did no that LOL

So, this convivial intercourse between Jim and Steve is nice and all, but I would like to ask Steve what his thoughts are on the current attempts by the president to have the election nullified in his favor?

And would universal healthcare make us socialists?

Bridgier and David,
Steve gave my this link. https://www.lifeinnorway....socialism/ It's a good read, well stated and thought provoking.

It is an excellent link re socialism and democratic socialism in scandinavia. It clears up what I consider to be a better more humanist/socialist/democratic form of governance. The article was very informative regarding my conception of socialism in the Marx construct as opposed to what I consider a much better ideal. It further opened my eyes to what I consider a reasonable yet unobtainable form of government in America.

*jerry, know, I new you would understand.

* dammit! I can't help myself.

"Scandinavia and the Nordic countries can be best described as social democracies. Effectively, they’re democratic countries in which its citizens are well cared for."

Oh good Lord, it's worse than I thought.

Don't forget the next paragraph: "Some refer to this as democratic socialism, though this is far from correct. Some economists refer to it as cuddly capitalism, contrasting with what is seen as cut-throat capitalism in other Western countries."

Bridgier - I think I could probably write a book based on my notes of what is happening currently. In simplified terms, the current situation is part of the pendulum swings testing the beliefs and integrity of the system and the people. Based on the activities of the last four years, I have little doubt that the situation will eventually be reversed and the attitudes of the far sides of the political spectrum will be reversed. If the integrity of the systems holds (as I suspect) the next few years will be a lot of divergence of the populace attention and lack of any real new development. If the integrity of the system does not hold, I suspect it would be the beginning of backlash that could overshoot any real workable solutions.

David - Simplified answer, social programs do not qualify as socialism. As I tried to get everybody to read, socialism is well defined as government control from raw material through delivery to the consumer with any profit distributed back to the system. Obviously very hard to go into pros and cons here and there are libraries full of research.

Within the United States, the only program that I am aware of that is fairly well agreed qualifies as a form of Socialism is Social Security (https://www.investopedia....ialism.asp). This would make even the U.S. a bit of a mixed system. Medicare and Medicaid are actually administered by private companies (look up Centene Corporation if you are curious about one of the largest).

I am curious if the right questions are being asked. According to the OECD (https://stats.oecd.org/In...tCode=SHA#), 2018's per capita government/compulsory spending on healthcare in the U.S. was $9,008.80. In Switzerland it was $4687.30. In Sweden it was $4,623.70. In Norway, it was $5,361.00. All are converted to U.S. dollars. Total per capita spending for health care in these countries in 2018 was $10,637.10; $7,279.80, $5,433.70; and $6,283.20, respectively. Do we really need to increase taxes to achieve the same health system as the nordic countries?

Cut to the chase here please - mr Trump has requested that the governor of Georgia replace the electors selected via votes for mr Biden with ones selected by the legislature for trump. Give me a paragraph on this.

Steve, regarding your post to Bridgier, what do you think the tipping point would be to reverse the polarity or backlash from or of divergent views. I don't see a psychic change happening. It seems complacency is systemic in America.

Do we really need to increase taxes to achieve the same health system as the nordic countries?

No, insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies would burn down the house. Beside, where would all of the politicos find other work after leaving government?

If Taxes were raised and those taxes all went to health, education and welfare and I didn't need to supplement my medicare by paying Humana, sure, I could really dig it. Remember Judy Martz? Remember cigarette taxes being raised and the money would go to health care. Well olde Jude got the check and put the whole chunk in the general fund. A ruckus was raised. Know what happened? Zip, zero, nada, is what happened. By the way Humana stock is about $435 a share. I send them money every month but I don't have a share. People of Judy Martz ilk, politicos, in general, insurance companies, big pharma, ad nauseum are what I worry about when it comes to a psychic change.

I've gotta' go pick up the great-grandkids. TTFN

Should we name this post and move it. I don't remember what Rob Shipley posted.

Tucker - I'm all in favor of moving if the conversation is worthwhile to continue.

Bridgier - Governor Kemp refused Trump's requests making the actions moot other than to explore personality. Not sure how it matters what my opinion is. I do see it keeping the extreme Trump base fired up and refusing to recognize Biden while he is in office. I also see it causing the far left to spend an inordinate amount of time calling for the prosecution of trump after the fact. I also see the centrists in both parties unwilling to actually discuss anything for fear of their far leaning colleagues taking their heads off. Thus the democrats will not listen to anything put forth by a republican nor will a republican listen to anything put out by a democrat simply because of affiliation, regardless of actual merit. In other words, a mirror image of the last four years.

To get you to the mindset of "what does it matter", what are your thoughts on the Ocasio-Cortez / Pelosi feud? How about Trump's response?

Tucker - I'm all in favor of moving if the conversation is worthwhile to continue.

Bridgier - Governor Kemp refused Trump's requests making the actions moot. Not sure how it matters what my opinion is other than to explore leanings. I do see it keeping the extreme Trump base fired up and refusing to recognize Biden while he is in office. I also see it causing the far left to spend an inordinate amount of time calling for the prosecution of trump after the fact. I also see the centrists in both parties unwilling to actually discuss anything for fear of their far leaning colleagues taking their heads off. Thus the democrats will not listen to anything put forth by a republican nor will a republican listen to anything put out by a democrat simply because of affiliation, regardless of actual merit. In other words, a mirror image of the last four years.

To get you to the mindset of "what does it matter", what are your thoughts on the Ocasio-Cortez / Pelosi feud? How about Trump's response?

I don't think it's moot, I want to know if it's worth it to engage with you, or not. If Kemp HAD agreed to set aside the election, would you have agreed with it, or not?

It's a simple question, please answer.

Though I have really enjoyed this exchange, I'm gonna pull up my pants and go home. I have a lot of food for thought. I kept hoping Richard Bonine would join in. I always enjoy his perspective. Steve, nice to meet you. It has been well, worth while.

Thanks for playing. Be sure and tip your waitress. Don't forget your parting gifts on the way out.

Cheers, TTFN

In the 1980's A&W created the 1/3 lbs burger to compete with McDonalds and the 1/4 burger. A&W's effort was a flop because too many people thought the McDonalds burger was bigger.

I have learned a lesson from this "parable" and given up "arguing" or defending my point of view in online forums. I may post my thoughts on a take it or leave it basis from time to time. For me, photography is a much happier and rewarding pursuit.

It is always great hearing from you, Richard. I am aware how much change you have experienced. Your perspectives are always interesting. I hope all is well in New Mexico. Cheers

Tucker - nice use of a comma.

Richard - Interesting conversion of you can lead a horse to water parable.

Bridgier - Kemp followed the Georgia Constitution, certified the election and rebuffed Trump. He did this despite being a Republican and Trump supporter. From that, the integrity of the system that is in place held. Therefore, I consider the Georgia situation mentioned moot. To date, the Trump administration has not produced any tangible evidence and continues to divert attention. The US Attorney General has stated that he sees no evidence of fraud. For me, I have things to do that are more important to me than follow the Trump melodrama that closely. If something happens that is different than expected, I will probably ponder on it.

For all - I am fascinated by the insistence of using the word "Socialism" in any program change, especially when it has over 150 years of definition and international understanding. Even Democratic Socialism is defined internationally as "Socialism with the masses having the right to vote on the programs". The countries that are pointed to as being Democratic Socialist by US interests are taking active steps to disavow the label. Just bringing up the word shuts down conversation for some. Why is there this insistence in the US to redefine Democratic Socialism when all it does is shut down discussion?

So you believe that joe Biden is, in fact, the winner of the federal election, and the president-elect of the United States? If that is true, does it bother you that the current president and his political party are pushing a narrative that appears to put president-elect Biden's legitimacy into question?

Bridgier wrote:

So you believe that joe Biden is, in fact, the winner of the federal election, and the president-elect of the United States? If that is true, does it bother you that the current president and his political party are pushing a narrative that appears to put president-elect Biden's legitimacy into question?

I quite agree. It would seem like quibbling about Socialism/ Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism/ whatever is pretty immaterial when the current debate is our democracy/republic versus the totalitarianism/facism system of government that the Republican party wishes to install, in violation of our current Constitution.

David Schott wrote:

And would universal healthcare make us socialists?

When I have to pay for it.

Gunnar Emilsson wrote:

Bridgier wrote:

So you believe that joe Biden is, in fact, the winner of the federal election, and the president-elect of the United States? If that is true, does it bother you that the current president and his political party are pushing a narrative that appears to put president-elect Biden's legitimacy into question?

I quite agree. It would seem like quibbling about Socialism/ Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism/ whatever is pretty immaterial when the current debate is our democracy/republic versus the totalitarianism/facism system of government that the Republican party wishes to install, in violation of our current Constitution.

No there up holding the Constitution. Which democrats would like to play by there rules that have socialism views. And If you what to pay for medical for all . Add some more of your money to you're taxes to help.

My letter to our Attorney General. Feel free to deal with this subject as you will.......

Tim Fox, Esq.
Attorney General of Montana
Office of the Attorney General
Justice Building, Third Floor
PO Box 201401
Helena, MT 59620-1401

Re: Montana Joining the Texas Lawsuit Against Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia

Dear Attorney Fox:

I read your Amicus Brief supporting the Texas Attorney General’s action to interfere with the electoral outcome of the presidential vote in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Wisconsin. The gist of same was to subvert those states’ election results to send Trump electors to D.C. As a veteran and practicing lawyer for over forty-five years, I am offended and embarrassed that you have included my state, Montana, in this treasonable and unenlightened action.

I also read your political response in the Billings Gazette and found it lame, inadequate and of no consequence.

Don’t bother responding to me.

Sincerely.

Terry J Hanson AAL
Bar No. 607

Oh jer-bear, the idea that you're paying for poop is cute.

Terry Hanson, that was the most excellent letter. I will be sure to forward that to my mother. She thinks the world of you.

Bridgier wrote:

Oh jer-bear, the idea that you're paying for poop is cute.

Who was the one on the wizard of oz wish him had a brain. Was it you?

When I wrote my last comments, I fully expected that the Supreme Court would have rejected out of pocket by now. I am not sure when their conference call will end today. Given the Electoral College meets on Monday, I wonder if they will need to issue opinion over the weekend. I am not a lawyer, so I am sure I am missing something. In my thinking, I cannot fathom a Justice accepting the standing argument, nor being willing to be in the center of the storm that would ensue. Being that the standing argument is new and so unusual and the lawsuit is unprecedented, I am bracing for the unexpected but still believe that the court will reject the case.

I hope that the Republicans in office that are signing on in support are doing so for purely political reasons ("I supported Trump to the bitter end" for Trump Supporters and "I believe in the right of all to file a lawsuit and have their day in court" for moderates). I would hope that the dissenting Republican, Bush and Lincoln Project responses would be more reflective of the true feelings of the Republican party behind the scenes. We will have a better idea if the Supreme Court takes an unexpected turn.

But you, personally, have no opinion one way or the other.

Happily for us true patriots, the law of the land still stands.

https://www.nytimes.com/2...texas.html

Well, it's done. The electoral college has cast its votes and Joe Biden is officially the President-elect of the United States of America. This is a good day.

The conman, grifter, twitter clown, impeached President Trump and the rest of his crime family will now have to vacate the Whitehouse on January 20th. All of the baseless lawsuits challenging the election results have failed. His efforts to undermine the very foundation of our Democracy have failed. His attempt to install fascism and authoritarianism into government have failed. Our Republic will last at least another 4 years.

The Whitehouse cleaning crew has a lot of work to do to clear out all the coronavirus and the stench of corruption.

Excellent post, Tommy.

At one point, I was of the opinion that President-Elect Joe Biden is right, we should move forward to heal the country.

But the last month of Trump's antics had convinced me otherwise. I look forward to the great State of New York to press charges against the Trump Crime Organization, and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Justice must be served.

I used to hope and pray for regaining civility in our government.....But when Trumps bitch Moscow Mitch wouldnt even allow Obama to put up a US supreme court Judge candidate for a year...but ram rodded Trumps pick through in a couple of weeks.....The gloves came off IMO.I hope the Democrats win the Senate and pack the Supreme Court.