Someone killed in Oregon standoff
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Posted by Hal Neumann (+9919) 5 years ago
propagande par le fait

Damn. It’s often sad, often tragic, but at some point the end game plays out. I’m sorry to learn that someone died and someone was wounded. I hope that the casualty count won’t grow. I had hoped it would remain at the level of Civil Disobedience.

https://vnnforum.com/show...p?t=133740

https://www.google.com/ur...6941,d.cGc
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Posted by MRH (+1489) 5 years ago
Never mind, based on your title, I assumed the deceased was not named. Glad the situation is approaching an end.

[Edited by MRH (1/27/2016 12:00:14 AM)]
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Posted by Don Birkholz (+1300) 5 years ago
The deceased was Robert Finicum, the spokesman for the group. The two Bundys were arrested and about half a dozen others including Ryan Payne of Anaconda.

Exact details are in dispute, but the action took place on a road some miles away from the protest. Reports do not agree on whether there was one car stopped or more than one, Ammon Bundy reportedly called his wife from the back seat of the law enforcement vehicle????????????????, another unconfirmed report is that the FBI is surrounding the refuge.

Looks like the authorities picked a good spot for a roadblock, with the road sandwiched between two hills. One report has it that Robert Finicum tried to drive around the roadblock.

Reports are that news vans are coming into the area, You Tube has a live stream from inside the refuge and I have seen a stream video someone made while he was being arrested. These sites are crashing due to the excessive use.

[Edited by Don Birkholz (1/27/2016 5:42:51 AM)]

[Edited by Don Birkholz (1/27/2016 6:56:31 AM)]
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
The deceased mans daughter along with other eyewitnesses claim the man had put his hands up to surrender when he was fatally shot.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 5 years ago
You mean, the other people who were there being arrested? Yeah, I'm SURE they're reliable witnesses.
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Posted by Amorette F. Allison (+1917) 5 years ago
If he were black, I would believe he he was unarmed and had his hands up. Knowing what I do about these nuts, I suspect he was planning to go out in a blaze of gunfire in order to prove how impressive his genitals were.

Sad that it came to this but this is what those nuts wanted.
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Posted by Don Birkholz (+1300) 5 years ago
Description of the arrest scene (Robert Finicum charged the officials) http://www.oregonlive.com...ry_package

Interesting comment by the Oregon Governor:"I ask for patience as officials continue pursuit of a swift and peaceful resolution" (be patient, but do it fast??????) News conference at 10:30 there, would be 11:30 here.

[Edited by Don Birkholz (1/27/2016 9:07:11 AM)]
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Posted by Tomm (-1033) 5 years ago
That is about the dumbest thing I have heard this year A A .

[Edited by Tomm (1/27/2016 9:08:44 AM)]
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago


Looks like china wants their collateral. I wonder if they have any interest in Sydney thru to Glendive. There are a lot of resources in that area, and we do own them a large debt. Lets just see how this is resolved, whether or not the BLM keeps the land for Americans or they give it to china to cover our interest on the debt we owe the chinese. I wonder how much land and resources we need to surrender in order to cover this debt created by a fractional reserve system.

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/27/2016 7:14:39 PM)]
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Posted by Bob L. (+5095) 5 years ago
Sydney was in Australia last time I checked, genius!
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
That ones not near Glendive smart guy!
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1501) 5 years ago
Shirley you mean Sidney
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
Took you a while to figure that one out "genius egalitarians". Sertainly I mean Sidney.

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/27/2016 8:25:29 PM)]
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Posted by Dark Beer (+253) 5 years ago
Reply to Brandy Allen (#364652)
Brandy Allen wrote:


Looks like china wants their collateral. I wonder if they have any interest in Sydney thru to Glendive. There are a lot of resources in that area, and we do own them a large debt. Lets just see how this is resolved, whether or not the BLM keeps the land for Americans or they give it to china to cover our interest on the debt we owe the chinese. I wonder how much land and resources we need to surrender in order to cover this debt created by a fractional reserve system.

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/27/2016 7:14:39 PM)]


In a word, BALDERDASH!

http://www.snopes.com/pol...nevada.asp

Claim: Senator Harry Reid and a Chinese company building a solar plant are behind a standoff between federal agents and a Nevada rancher.

FALSE

Examples: [Collected via Facebook, April 2014]

Site are reporting that Harry Reid is in cahoots with ENN a Chinese firm for which his son works to take over the range area in dispute with that Nevada rancher and the Bureau of Land Management. Is there any truth here?


The Bundy Ranch in NV standoff with BLM is being attributed to Harry Reid's desire to help his son secure rights for a Chinese company to build a solar energy farm in the Nevada desert.

It's making it's rounds on Facebook and, of course, the internet.

Origins: April 2014 saw the publicizing of a decades-old dispute between the federal government and Cliven Bundy, a cattle rancher in Nevada, over grazing rights on public land. Back in 1993, Cliven Bundy began declining to pay the government fees required to allow his cattle to graze on public lands, and in 1998, as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise found in that area, the government obtained the issuance of a court order requiring Bundy to take his cows off that land. In July 2013, a federal court finally ordered Bundy to get his cattle off public land within 45 days or risk having them confiscated by the government and sold to pay off the fees and trespassing fines (reportedly in excess of $1.2 million) that he owes:

Bundy does not recognize federal authority over land where his ancestors first settled in the 1880s, which he claims belongs to the state of Nevada. The Bureau of Land Management [BLM] disagreed and took him to federal court, which first ruled in favor of the BLM in 1998. After years of attempts at a negotiated settlement over the $1.2 million Bundy owes in fees failed, federal land agents began seizing hundreds of his cattle illegally grazing on public land.

Bundy's claim that the land belongs to Nevada or Clark County didn't hold up in court, nor did his claim of inheriting an ancestral right to use the land that pre-empts the BLM's role.

As Bundy did not comply with the court order, the confiscation of his cattle began in April 2014, precipitating a tense standoff between Bundy's supporters and law enforcement officials. (The government eventually relented and released about 400 head of cattle it had seized from Bundy.)

Somewhere along the way in the reporting of this brouhaha, the conspiracy theory arose that the showdown between Cliven Bundy and the federal government wasn't really about grazing cattle or endangered tortoises, but was actually about a deal between Harry Reid, the senior U.S. Senator from Nevada (and the current U.S. Majority Leader), and a Chinese company eager to build a solar plant on the disputed land:

As a family in Clark County, Nev. continues to face an onslaught of heavily armed federal agents determined to kick them off of their ranch, reports have surfaced that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid might be behind the entire ordeal.

The ranch, which has been in Cliven Bundy's family for more than a century, is ground zero for a growing showdown between federal authorities and individual rights activists.

Reid and his eldest son, reports indicate, were integral in the support and/or implementation of a $5 billion solar plant being built in the county by a Chinese company.

Reid has been outspoken in support of the government's position on the Bundy issue, and both he and his son Rory were in earlier years prominent advocates of efforts by ENN Mojave Energy LLC (a Chinese-backed company) to build a solar plant in Clark County:

Questions surrounding family ties are flaring again in Nevada around the Senate majority leader. He and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert.

Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.

However, the theory that Reid's putative involvement in the Bundy dispute was motivated by a desire to somehow profit from the building of a solar plant falls flat in the face of two basic facts: The site that ENN Mojave Energy was planning to buy in order to build a solar plant is nowhere near the public land Bundy has been disputing with the government, and ENN gave up the solar project and terminated its agreement to buy land to house it as far back as June 2013:

A Chinese-backed company is pulling the plug on a multibillion-dollar solar project near Laughlin after it was unable to find customers for the power that would have been generated there, a Clark County spokesman said.

In a letter, an executive from ENN Mojave Energy LLC informed the county that the company was terminating its agreement to purchase 9,000 acres near Laughlin, stating that the "market will not support a project of this scale and nature at this time."

The company, a subsidiary of ENN Group, described as the largest energy company in China, said it was unable to sign the necessary power purchase agreements to sell the energy generated from the solar plant to utilities in Nevada or neighboring states.

The project was broken down into phases, but if fully completed, it was expected to generate enough energy to power 200,000 homes with a price tag of $1 billion to $6 billion.

The move was hailed as a much-needed boost for economic development in the southern part of the state and was projected to create up to 2,200 permanent jobs.

Commissioners agreed to sell the land at $4.5 million — about a sixth of its appraised value — in December 2011 to jump-start the development, but they put in place an aggressive timeline that required ENN to secure the complicated power purchase agreements.

With the solar project now just a mirage, commissioners will discuss what to do with the 9,000 acres of county-owned land at their July 2 meeting.
Even the conservative Breitbart site debunked this conspiracy claim, noting:
Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation — the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada.


Some versions of this conspiracy theory mistake the proposed ENN Mojave Energy site with that of the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar project, but the latter's 250MW solar power plant is already under construction (so there is no need to grab land for it), and, as noted in Wildlife News, the Moapa plant is being built near the Moapa Indian Reservation and not on public land disputed by Cliven Bundy:
A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son.

Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.

Likewise, another area currently being studied by BLM for the possible development of solar plants, commonly known as the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone, is sometimes mistakenly thrown into the conspiracy theory mix by persons who point to a BLM report listing "Cattle Trespass Impacts" and claim that it documents the BLM's intent to use the disputed land for solar development:

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.

But as explained at the Wildlife News, that isn't what the quoted blurb means:
There is some feeble effort to try to mitigate the damage to wildlife [caused by solar development]. Some of it is near the sites of these solar mirrors. This is called "primary mitigation." Some is in a place distant to the solar power site. This is called "secondary mitigation." Wildlife mitigation is things like planting grass wildlife need or like, development of new water sources for wildlife to drink, and restoration of rangeland overgrazed by cattle.

All this bureaucratic language means is that private groups like the Western Watersheds Project, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest don't think the damage from solar power plants located elsewhere can be mitigated at Gold Butte because the cattle will tromp all over it.
Last updated: 14 April 2014




Sources:
Camia, Catalina. "Sen. Harry Reid on Nevada Cattle Dispute: 'It's Not Over.'"
USA Today. 14 April 2014.
Ford, Matt. "The Irony of Cliven Bundy's Unconstitutional Stand."
The Atlantic. 14 April 2014.
Landau, Joel. "Federal Government Stops Fight with Nevada Rancher Over Grazing Land."
[New York] Daily News. 12 April 2014.
Maughan, Ralph. "Bundy's Land Is Not Solar Farm for Harry Reid."
Wildlife News. 13 April 2014.
Maughan, Ralph. "Here Is the "Notorious" Missing BLM Page Connecting to Harry Reid."
Wildlife News. 15 April 2014.
Shine, Conor. "Company Dumps Big Laughlin Solar Project, Says Market Won't Support It."
Las Vegas Sun. 14 June 2013.
Stern, Marcus. "U.S. Senator Reid, Son Combine for China firm's Desert Plant."
Reuters. 31 August 2012.
Woods, Lucy. "Moapa Tribe and First Solar Begin Construction of 250MW Project."
PV-Tech 24 March 2014.
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Posted by Bob Netherton III (+2773) 5 years ago
Cursed facts!
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Posted by Don Birkholz (+1300) 5 years ago
Finicum apparently reached for a gun in his waistband as the reason to why he was shot. http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...ppens-next

Situation is probably over with a few more arrests overnight.
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
[The Bureau of Land Management [BLM] disagreed and took him to federal court, which first ruled in favor of the BLM in 1998.]

Exactly; BLM is simply a middle man to help assist the transfer of collateral from the bankrupt US to the Chinese and other debt holders. Our supreme courts are one of the procurers of the debt on behalf of our debtors, and it is not just china.

Hillary said she would appoint Obama to the supreme court, so if she wins, get ready to see the acquisition of 'said' collateral to gain speed and momentum. And if the feds raise rates again, expect it to accelerate even further, since the Chinese are refusing to be paid back in a devalued currency, they want physical assets in return. They now have large swaths in Idaho Oregon and Arizona.

Cite what you will, but time will show your adolescent ignorance. Here is a video outlining the takeover of American assists by the foreign debt holders. Who in their right mind thought a fractional system was going to work.
HOW ABOUT THOSE 15 TIMES EARNINGS STOCK SALES. SELLING SOMETHING THEY DONT HAVE HAS RARELY WORKED FOR AYONE, AND IT WONT WORK THIS TIME.

The Stratford files outlined this well, and they have the best minds in the financial realm, and it sounds like Jim Cramer "ultra liberal" is starting to trumpet this idea as well.



[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/28/2016 7:57:46 AM)]
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17335) 5 years ago
Reply to Don Birkholz (#364661)
Don Birkholz wrote:
Finicum apparently reached for a gun in his waistband as the reason to why he was shot. http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...ppens-next

Situation is probably over with a few more arrests overnight.


Don, accurate news reports have no interest to Mr. Allen. He receives his news from Alex Jones.
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
Umm, that's the x-22 report, incase you didn't read it. And most of my geopolitical talking points come from rand corps docs, and the Stratford files. Both of which are bipartisan think tanks, with links to national security personnel. Read before you speak gunny.

Alex is just a megaphone for those that can not afford the subscription to these think tank documents. I also listen to Putin's speeches as well as Obamas. I don't need Info-wars perspective. I do like Rush, he has some great talking points. But Alex is becoming a joke.

I am a CNBC junkie, and listen Carl Cantonia, and David Faber. Pete Najerian on options trading has valuable information on the geopolitical landscape and its effects on world markets. But my main source of data and insider movements is from Jim "mad" Cramer. Follow the money, and listen to Peter Schiff!
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 5 years ago
jesus.

Start a new thread instead of derailing this one.

[Edited by Bridgier (1/28/2016 10:24:29 AM)]
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Posted by Dark Beer (+253) 5 years ago
Reply to Don Birkholz (#364661)
Don Birkholz wrote:
Finicum apparently reached for a gun in his waistband as the reason to why he was shot. http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...ppens-next

Situation is probably over with a few more arrests overnight.


This was, unfortunaly, a case of sheriff-assisted suicide.
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
Finicum was a Mormon rancher from Arizona who had 11 children, 19 grandchildren and a wife of 23 years.

He was financially set, and paid reverence to God. So why would a man whom had everything going for himself commit suicide?

Dark horse, you make no since. People who kill themselves usually show signs leading up to killing themselves. Such as giving away personal items, or showing severe depression etc.. this man had none of these signs. He owned his land, so bills were not an issue. Your idea of suicide by cops has no merit, and is baseless.
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Posted by Don Birkholz (+1300) 5 years ago
Apparently four stragglers still in the compound.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 5 years ago
Because he told everybody that they weren't going to take him alive?
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
That implies victory not suicide.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

This is a land grab by the BLM and "lobbyist bought politicians" to confiscate American land and give it to "American debt holders" i.e. china and others. How did you folks think we would pay our exorbitant debt to the rest of the world, print it? The rest of the world will not accept a devalued currency as repayment. The land is the collateral, and we are in the mist of a sovereign debt crisis. The Chinese have been given land south of Salt lake city, and Arizona, among other swaths and sections across the US. This is a takeover of the land and resources by foreign debt holders, and certainly George Soros will get his cut, his "yes boy" Obama aka Barry Sotoro will see to that.

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/28/2016 3:03:05 PM)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 5 years ago
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

And one man's moran is another man's philosopher-king.

[Edited by Bridgier (1/28/2016 3:25:12 PM)]
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Posted by rhshilling (+89) 5 years ago
I love how all the ultra-informed whackadoodles all have their thinking in order. I've always found that the best way to resolve an issue is to go after the wrong people. When your Dodge truck is a lemon, you sue Chevy. When terrorists from Iran attacks you, you invade Ireland. When the BLM boogeyman is stealing everyones land, you take over a US Fish and Wildlife Services Building. It makes perfect sense.

If morons believe that any federal agency OWNS the land, then they are just that...morons. WE, THE PEOPLE own that land. Federal agencies manage it. They manage that land within the confimes of conservation and protection legislation. Occasionally they make land swaps. The argument against the BLM has been going on for a while and in States where the BLM manages the majority of our land, they have been directed to sell some of it off. The local county commissioners nominate which tracts of land that are to be put up for sale. I do not know of one single tract that has been denied. I also do not know of any of those tracts that have been put on the market as being sold because the people who want the land for FREE will not pay fair market value for it. If they think the answer is to turn over all of OUR land to the individual states, then it is no longer OURS, but the residents of that state. Most of those states can not manage the land they already have. How in the HELL would they be able to manage all the added land? The boogeyman federal agencies would just become the boogeyman state agencies because that would be the only way to manage what is there...and the states wouldn't be able to afford operating like that either. The other alternative would be to sell off land, so in Nevada for instance, the podunk rancher like Cliven Bundy, he won't be able to afford the land around him because the mining companies would scarf it up in a heartbeat if there are minerals there. The Southern Nevada Water Authority will scarf up any land where there is a water source and drain it dry because Las Vegas needs water and it needs more every day! In 2015 over 100 million acres of US land burned. Who fought those fires? Ranchers? Maybe a few, but NO. Federal agencies such as the USFS and BLM provide fire fighting resources that are always stretched thin. Ever fought a forest fire? I have, it isn't fun.

I suppose the next thing they will fight for is the federal government isn't allowed to own land so therefore Federal prisons are illegal! Time to open the gates of the federal prisons and let all those nice law abiding folks loose!

As for Finicum, he was not set for life. They took his foster kids from him and his cash cow was done. He had recently moved to Colorado City, AZ which is the home of the FLDS church...Ever hear of Warren Jeffs? Nice fella. Finicum had repeatedly said throughout this occupation that he would be either 95 or dead when he left there. Did he seriously think that he would be living there for 40 years?

I guess when you tell the federal government that you have taken over their building and that you were not going to leave until your demands are met, maybe you should, you know, NOT LEAVE THE BUILDING....or you could just go driving all over the western US.

[Edited by rhshilling (1/28/2016 3:48:45 PM)]

[Edited by rhshilling (1/28/2016 3:53:10 PM)]
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
A moron said

{If morons believe that any federal agency OWNS the land, then they are just that...morons. WE, THE PEOPLE own that land. Federal agencies manage it. They manage that land within the confimes of conservation and protection legislation. Occasionally they make land swaps. The argument against the BLM has been going on for a while and in States where the BLM manages the majority of our land, they have been directed to sell some of it off.}


That is contradictory, how can they sell what they do not own?


And why do the people that you claim own it have to buy it?

You are the ultra- moron here.

BLM can sell it, because they own it and they sell to foreign debt holders most of the time.

"we the people" must buy it,if we can compete with lobbyist, because we do not own it. If we owned it as you claim, then we wouldn't have to buy it. Having to buy something means you don't own it yet, until you pay for it. Common since isn't to common here! BLM doesn't manage the land, they are handling the transfer of the land to repay our debts, there is a difference.

A license is what you get when your "rights" have been legislated into privileges "by lobbyist", then sold back to you with conditions. And you better get a license before you hunt or fish on "your" BLM managed land.


[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/28/2016 6:03:37 PM)]

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/28/2016 6:22:43 PM)]
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Posted by Bob L. (+5095) 5 years ago
Daniel:

For someone who claims to watch CNBC regularly, you sure don't know how U.S. Treasury Bonds work. Rube.

Please tell me you're being willfully ignorant.
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Posted by rhshilling (+89) 5 years ago
The BLM was directed by Congress, your elected representatives at the national level, to place some of our land up for sale. How can they do this? Because ranchers and miners want to own more of OUR land and minerals. Why does the BLM do this? Because having one agency that manages the land handle the sales is much easier than having 318 million people all hiring real estate agents to handle the sales for us. Holy Poop! Think of the money real estate agents would make on commissions alone!

So the BLM is solely responsible for selling our lands to foreign entities to pay off the US debt. I'm wondering how we have any land left since they apparently have been doing this since its inception in 1946. This is the same bullpoop story that has been going around since the 1990's militia movements. Only now it is the BLM and not the National Park Service. Hell, someone made up a sign that said "Property of China" and went around hanging it under NP signs and taking pictures just to have "proof" back then. The picture of the Smoky Mountain National Park sign with the "Property of China" sign added to it was what circulated through the militia group I belonged to then.

You want a wake up call? Have you name on an FBI Watch List and also on a Watch List for the Southern Poverty Law Center. Have a couple of your friends do time in prison for weapons and explosives charges and a few others in on arson charges. It takes a long time to try to get some normalcy back to your life. Hell, my buddies that were in local and state prison on arson charges are not even allowed to own a gun anymore! They will all tell you the boogey man doesn't live in the outside world. He lives in prison!
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Posted by Brandy Allen (-2410) 5 years ago
I never said the BLM is solely responsible, I actually said the legislatures and lobbyist are to blame. The BLM is just the middleman to help the exchange go under the radar as to not upset the people whom think they own the lands.
And I never seen a sign with the mountains behind the saying Chinese lands, I never joined any dumb as- militia. But when I see the Chinese building on lands that were recently confiscated from the American public, I put 2 & 2 together. This is actually all a part of the progressive global agenda.

And I know how Bonds work. I was one that said they cant raise rates or the bonds would bust. They then raised rates by a .25 and they are seeing the same issue. So I understand bonds and I called it right. Get ready for another round of QE. Because once you become a socialist nation, the government must create the wealth instead of the people whom creating it under capitalism. Probably because socialist are less efficient than capitalist. If the progressive liberal socialist economic policies worked, Big ben would not be saying lets drop money from planes and helicopters. The markets are down nearly 2000 points since the rate hike, that proves I am right. I called that move. I can also call a major exit from sovereign wealth funds, these are automatic reactions of a systemic problem I our financial system.

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/29/2016 7:02:08 AM)]

[Edited by Brandy Allen (1/29/2016 7:08:10 AM)]
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Posted by Bob L. (+5095) 5 years ago
Oh, you're a genius Danny Boy.

I'm sure you shorted a bunch of financial instruments to take advantage of your superior predictive abilities, no???
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Posted by rhshilling (+89) 5 years ago
"Once you become a socialist nation" Oh, you mean like back in 1932 when the whole world became socialist. The US became a socialist nation in 1932 under FDR. We still are today. Ours is just under the guise of capitalism.
https://www.facebook.com/...=3&theater
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17335) 5 years ago
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