Thoughts?

Being born in 1964 the Cuban Missile Crisis is less than a distant memory for me, I do not see a problem with establishing relations with them. Fidel Castro is ill and his son I understand is in power, if his son has learned anything from the sanctions imposed over the last few decades should not be a problem.

Raul is the younger brother.

It does seem kind of stupid to think that a policy that has been failing for the past fifty plus will suddenly start working any time soon.

I know ranchers are hoping Cuba opens up so they can sell some beans, corn and cows there. An untapped market.

My fear is that Cuba will become just another retail opportunity for the capitalist whores. It will be interesting to watch.

Cuba has more doctors per capita, free education through college and the highest literacy rate on the planet. OK, now bring on all of the CIA propaganda.

Makes one wonder why anyone would risk all to leave such an Utopia.

Tucker Bolton wrote:

My fear is that Cuba will become just another retail opportunity for the capitalist whores.

The only things missing from the Socialist Paradise™ created by the Soviets, the Castro Bro's and their dead pal Che "firing squad" Guevara seem to be Freedom, Liberty and Democracy. Of course, that's just more CIA propaganda (or lies spread by people willing to row 90 miles of open ocean in an orange crate, to get off the island)..

I'm sure things will get a lot worse when the "capitalist whores" start giving them jobs at the Havana Walmart.

I'm sure things will get a lot worse when the "capitalist whores" start giving them jobs at the Havana Walmart.

I'm certain you're right.

I was really hoping to hear more than the party line on this subject. The resiliency of the Cuban people throughout the embargo is more than admirable. Oddjob, you are correct about the CIA murder of Che. His sister is still a practicing physician in Havana. She and the staff at her hospital treated a boatload of 9/11 first responders that were refused treatment in New York, including a years supply of medication, free of charge.

For ten years after the soviets pulled out, Cubans pulled together and planted the entire country and fed themselves while keeping the schools running and education remained free through the university level. The alleged despot Fidel and Raul travel without bodyguards, unmolested through the streets of Cuba.

It isn't a socialist, utopia. Nothing is but it is not as irreparably broken and corrupt as amerika has become.

Tucker Bolton wrote:

The alleged despot Fidel and Raul travel without bodyguards, unmolested through the streets of Cuba.

As they have murdered, imprisoned or deported anyone who doesn't tow the "party line". Hitler could (and did) travel unmolested, as well.

As far as Fidel's, chief executioner Guevara is concerned, he earned what he got. If it was the CIA; good on 'em. At least that's one thing they didn't screw up.

Yes, the Cubans have free education and health care, although that is changing due to the crushing debt of socialism. What you fail to mention is the nearly universal poverty with the exception of the well-connected elite class.

The only thing that has really changed since Batista is, that the Cuban people have become more resourceful in tolerating their oppression and get to experience it longer.

Obama may quite possibly get another "unexpected consequence" of his meddling in Cuba. As the yoke is lifted, the reaction will most likely be an uncontrollable and very bloody power struggle.

Oddjob wrote:

"Hitler could (and did) travel unmolested, as well."

I just saw a show on TV about Hitler's bodyguards (plural).

"In the earliest days of the Nazi Party (NSDAP), the leadership realized that a bodyguard unit composed of zealous and reliable men was needed."

Wikipedia.org: 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

Yes.

There is a reason why Hitlers, Castros, Stalins, etc. travel unmolested...They were\are surrounded by their Army.

Does anyone actually believe the Castros are embraced by the proletariat?

Tucker does. He is in love with Cuba. I heard he is moving there soon.

Whenever connors field at denton park needs a renovation, oddjob is always the first one there to help move the goalposts.

Bridgier wrote:

Whenever connors field at denton park needs a renovation, oddjob is always the first one there to help move the goalposts.

No bigger goalpost move than the usual personal attack.

Since you are here, what say you from the perspective of the "capitalist whores"? Micron's probably itching to get in.......

I'm merely trying to point out the difficulty in discussing this sort of thing with you. We start with you declaring that the regime is the worst thing ever, and then move to declaring it to be another Obama failure that will end if fire and blood, although your first statement pretty much necessitates a violent revolution, and then we're off to the races of who needed more bodyguards, hitler or castro, with several iterations of what Mr. Bonine calls 'bring me a rock - no, not THAT rock, a DIFFERENT rock' in between.

I'm sorry if you feel that's a personal attack, but just because you SAY something, doesn't mean it's particularly useful to determining what the future of Cuban and US relations will be.

Umm... it looks like the goal posts have crossed the Tongue and are now headed to the Rendering Plant...

[Edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (4/20/2015 12:19:46 PM)]

I honestly think that if ones mindset is, "My country, love it or leave it", "We are the greatest nation on the planet", "My country right or wrong" or if one feels invincible due to their belief that "God is on our side" or simply because one is a resident of the US of A and over forty or fifty years old, the chances of considering other options or ideology is a narrow slot, indeed.

I run into a lot of this, condemnation, prior to investigation. It seems more prevalent outside of urban areas. For me, linear thinking is the biggest reason for complacency. It is easy and doesn't require a lot of thought. Linear thinkers are armed with an arsenal of stock, cut and dried answers.

As we all know, God, guns, guts and John Wayne are what makes our country great......Right?

Tucker Bolton wrote:

I was really hoping to hear more than the party line on this subject. The resiliency of the Cuban people throughout the embargo is more than admirable. Oddjob, you are correct about the CIA murder of Che. His sister is still a practicing physician in Havana. She and the staff at her hospital treated a boatload of 9/11 first responders that were refused treatment in New York, including a years supply of medication, free of charge.

For ten years after the soviets pulled out, Cubans pulled together and planted the entire country and fed themselves while keeping the schools running and education remained free through the university level. The alleged despot Fidel and Raul travel without bodyguards, unmolested through the streets of Cuba.

It isn't a socialist, utopia. Nothing is but it is not as irreparably broken and corrupt as amerika has become.

OK. Brass tacks.

Lets start with sources for the claims made above. Start with the "boatload" of 9/11 responders treated in Cuba. How many other than the three Michael Moore drug down there?

The Cubans are also concerned that they can't produce enough tobacco to supply US demand. Alternatively, they are also worried that traditional Cuban cigars are stronger than the other South American cigars that we in the US smoke so we not actually WANT those pricy Havanas once we get our hands on them.

Tis a conundrum.

Oddjob, I am not a fan of cut and paste but here goes. You can do the same thing and come up with a horror story.

"If there is one thing for which Cuba has received praise over the years, it is the Communist government's state-run healthcare system.
Much of this praise is well-deserved. Despite its scarce resources, Cuba has one of the world's lowest infant mortality rates - just slightly lower than that of the US. Life expectancy is 77.5 years, one of the world's highest. And until not so long ago, there was one doctor for every 170 citizens - the highest patient-per-doctor ratio in the world.

Of course, the government can afford so many doctors because they are paid extremely low salaries by international standards. The average is between $30 and $50 per month.

And the benefits of this healthcare have not only been felt by Cubans.
Under Fidel Castro, the former Cuban president, hundreds of child victims of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, left without proper medical attention after the collapse of the Soviet Union, were invited to Cuba. A hospital was constructed to treat them while they and their families set up temporary residence in Tarara, a beautiful seaside neighbourhood near Havana. Many remain there today."

OK, this is me again. The highest paid profession in Cuba is farmer. Cuba has more medical outreach in more countries (currently 38,000 health workers in 76 countries) than any other G8 nation. This is from the Oxford Journal on Public Health Ethics.

Another quote from an Israeli medical publication.

"The unique thing about the Cuban effort is not only the number of health professionals they send, but also where they are sent. According to Huish, Cuba has dispatched doctors to its political enemies just as often as its friends, especially in Latin America, and has achieved real diplomatic results by doing so. “There was a massive earthquake in Nicaragua in the ’70s,” Huish said. “Cuba was one of the first countries to show up, and that was a dictatorship that actively supported the overthrow of the Cuban government. Uruguay opposed them in the ’90s but Cuba sent medicine. Same thing with Mexico and Honduras. Through these medical exchanges, now there are very warm relations.”

BTW Cuba offered medical aid and support after 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. The USA refused.

The Soviet Union is dead. Che Guevara was executed. Fidel Castro is 88 and his brother, Raul, is 83. The threat of a Castro regime to U.S. security, to the degree that one was ever posed, is long since past. Meanwhile, the world faces a common and far more formidable adversary in climate change. Debating the demerits of pre-Castro v. post-revolution Cuba now strikes me as rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

However, if that's the order of the day, there must be an honest accounting of the lives of Cuban campesinos under the boot of C.I.A.-installed dictator Fulgencia Batista. Granted, Castro was no angel after taking power, but the economic oppression against rural Cubans by Batista was so extreme that opposition to his coup-empowered junta was nearly universal. Organized crime ran Havana, literacy beyond the 2nd grade was exceptional, a plantation economy exploited the undeducated and medical care was so scarce that ad hoc cemeteries lined the country roads where the sick and dying dropped en route.

Economic oppression and inequality drove the Cuban Revolution. The question now is does the nation with the highest rate of economic inequality among western democracies (that would be U.S.) have something to offer a more egalitarian culture beyond a return to the gangsterism, corruption and serfdom that it once successfully kicked to the curb?

Tucker provided:

"Of course, the government can afford so many doctors because they are paid extremely low salaries by international standards. The average is between $30 and $50 per month."

If you don't find that statement somewhat disturbing then there is something wrong with your perception of what constitutes enslavement. If an "egalitarian culture" is achieved by creating universal misery and poverty in service to the State, then, what is the point of life?

The only thing that has changed in Cuba is the Master of the plantation and you think this is a step toward utopia because the slaves can all read and live longer?

Maybe we pay doctors too much?

Well, now that we have started down the path to regulating health care, we shall see how much of it is available. There isn't a Doctor in this county that takes Medicare so if you are a Medicare patient, your choices are 220 miles that way or 300 miles that-a-way.

Ah, I remember the good old days when I was a little Bob L.

Whenever I got sick, Dr. Brown (his real name) would visit. The old dude made house calls! If I had the flu, penicillin shot. Cold...penicillin. Broken leg...penicillin. You get the drill.

He was the only doctor in our small hamlet but he was an outstanding physician and a great guy.

Health care wasn't nearly as expensive back then, and Doc Brown did well but was not a wealthy man.

He must have been a Communist.

I kind of like the idea of Cuba staying the way it is, without being destroyed by American investment and all the garbage that goes with it. The idea that Havana could be transformed into Cancun kind of sickens me.

So please don't normalize relations with Cuba. Oddjob is right!

Oddjob wrote:

"There isn't a Doctor in this county that takes Medicare..."

Which county is "this county" and can you provide a source for your information that no doctors in said county accept Medicare patients?

OK, I've got nothing further. Oddjob, All you could see was salaries. In that entire post the only "brass tack" viable to you had a dollar sign. Not education or humanity but the paycheck of a physician with no student loans, willing to go into the most poverty stricken countries on the planet and administer aid. BTW Oddjob, I am retired and on medicare. I have my choice of no fewer than 500 Doctors within a twenty mile radius. I'm sure you were referring to medicaid. I don't even want to hear tour rant on that.

Joe, when it comes to global, environmental issues, you realize that I am the choir you are addressing. I'm just, naive enough to believe that dialog for change still exists.

I think that there is a revolution brewing in this country but our current equivalent of Batista and the the Mafia are leading the charge. We call them politicians and businessmen. The sheep are lining up to dutifully cast their ballot.

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw.

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

T S Eliot

[Edited by Tucker Bolton (4/21/2015 2:27:30 PM)]

Tucker:
Your posts could be from a ageing frustrated 60s-70s radical hippie whose time is past, and all that is left is a shell, with a big mouth stirring the pot.

Chances are most never got past the stage of ingesting illegal substances, wearing a Che T Shirt, burning the flag et al. No guts no glory, just big talk.

Certainly. most have ran into many folks whose mindset is, "America love it or leave it:. Maybe good advise. Quite a few countries come to mind to immigrate to.

As far as considering other ideologies looks like ISIS is gaining some ground. Careful though, a person could lose their head.

Ike, for your information, I am a decorated Vietnam veteran. I am also proud to have protested it after my honorable discharge. The Illegal substances are now legal in my state and I still don't use it because when I did, it rendered me nearly as ignorant as you have just shown yourself to be.

Damn it, Larry, I sure wish you would lift the ban on profanity.

Thanks for the reply. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder. Were you radicalized by Ho Chi Min??

Wow. And people think I'M a dick.

Papa Ho was more interested in the welfare of his country than you are interested in yours. He left a pretty lush life in France to return to help his people.

Ike do you honestly believe we were trying to "win hearts and minds" in Vietnam. How much study have you done? Do you know why the French left or when we first sent troops advisers into the country? The mission of Air America? Do you know what a flechette round is or what a three second burst from an aircraft mounted mini gun does to ground troops? if you do we can continue this intercourse. If not, you need to shut the fuh cup.

B/4 I close the book on this conversation, here are a few talking points. Dien Bien Phu, Gulf of Tonkin resolution, Air America, Saigon, Laos, and the Hanoi Hilton, Tet Offensive, Viet Cong and NVA, The inglorious pull out. Et al

Like other foreign wars since WW 2, Wars that we did not fight to win, Just like our present involvements. At a tremendous cost of lives and treasure.

Why the hell are you bringing up "more talking point" while simultaneously ignoring the the points that Tucker has raised. You can't "close the books" on a conversation in which you didn't really particpate.


+++++

Honestly, most of what went down in Cuba happened when I was a very young lad and I really don't know all that I probably should about it. What I do know is that the threat of the USSR doesn't exsist in the same way as it did when we took action against Cuba. The old policies toward Cuba needed to change. I applaude President Obama's actions in reaching out and changing our policies toward Cuba. 

The secret to changing direction when travling the road of life is to be willing to turn the wheel in the direction of the curve. That seems to be something some of the old guard on here are struggling to do.

[Edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (4/21/2015 8:52:18 PM)]

People, focus.

Rum and Cigars.

I no longer smoke cigars, but rum....

......mmmmmm good.

The ignorance and brainwashing of Leftists and modern Progressives is irreversible for the most part. Whalen's post is an excellent example of their thinking and selective bias..

"...there must be an honest accounting of the lives of Cuban campesinos under the boot of C.I.A.-installed dictator Fulgencia Batista. Granted, Castro was no angel after taking power, but the economic oppression against rural Cubans by Batista was so extreme that opposition to his coup-empowered junta was nearly universal."

Batista, allegedly backed by the CIA, was a full-fledged monster, whereas the Castros and Guevara, who openly murdered tens of thousands to secure absolute control "were no angels".

Leftists love their mass-murdering commie psychopaths and totally embrace the slaughter and enslavement of hundreds of millions of human beings, as an acceptable path to utopia. They do this while absolutely despising the Country which, for the most part, defends their inalienable rights and has done more in the history of civilization to protect free people and alleviate human misery.

But I'll leave it to the philosophers to figure out why that is so.

I'm going to do more navel-gazing over this paradox: If Batista was such a bastard, and his economic oppression so extreme, why was Cuba absolutely full of 1950's Detroit automobiles and not crematoria?

[Edited by Oddjob (4/22/2015 10:04:09 AM)]

Missing among all this, Oddjob, is your opinion of Tricky Dick normalizing relations with China. Same thing times 2000. What is the difference?

Next up : Russia!

We should ignore them all! Screw the Monroe doctrine!

Well, I couldn’t leave
Unless the old man chased me out
’Cause I’d already promised
That I’d milk his cows
I had to say something
To strike him very weird
So I yelled out
“I like Fidel Castro and his beard”
Rita looked offended
But she got out of the way
As he came charging down the stairs
Sayin’, “What’s that I heard you say?”

I said, “I like Fidel Castro
I think you heard me right”
And ducked as he swung
At me with all his might
Rita mumbled something
’Bout her mother on the hill
As his fist hit the icebox
He said he’s going to kill me
If I don’t get out the door
In two seconds flat
“You unpatriotic
Rotten doctor Commie rat”

By Robert Zimmerman

Tucker drops microphone and walks off, stage left.

Dylan when you could understand him!

You mean before he started channeling Buckwheat?

Speaking of classic cars in Cuba and wacky races...

Also missing from this discussion, Oddjob, are thoughts concerning Dick Dasteredly and his sidekick Muttley normalizing relations with Penelope Pitstop.

Richard, Seems your comprehension skills may be lacking from your post back away. Maybe, this will be easier to understand.

I asked my Grandmother "for something Cuban" for my birthday, and she got me a Che Quevara shirt.

Clothes but no cigar!

Tucker, I want to thank you. This is the best thread posted in the forums for a long time. This kind of discussion brings the best of every one. I was just here feeling the blues and I crossed this thread.

I love the fact when Oddjob jumps in, the humor and creativity jumps,as Emeril says, up a notch. I especially love the poem by Bobby Zimmerman formerly of Duluth, MN. I haven't felt so pro Castro since we drank Cuba Libras in College. My next trip on my bucket list is a visit to Cuba.
Finally thanks for the Buckwheat clip. It really made my day!

Actually, the reason I "jump in", Ms. Emilsson, it to show how easy it is to get people to say ridiculous stuff like "I murdering Commies!"

Betty, sometimes it is better to let running dog, capitalist pigs lay, or at least let them wallow in their own greedy ignorance.

See?

Piece of cake.