Just came back to see how the ranchers near Miles City feel about the Clive Bundy vs. BLM issue? Any thoughts?

Clive should pay his grazing fees to the entity they are owed.

He's another Freeman/Soveign Citizen/Posse Commitatus anarchist.

Sell his cows and send him to jail.

Seems a shame to me our Federal Goverment is so happy and willing to strong arm ranchers looking for a little grass, and farmer's begging for a little water, rather then take their fully armed shock troops to the border and show a little true grit to the drug and human smugglers who run free down there. I think Eric Holder ought to get to the bottom of this, right after he's done with his IRS investigation.

He is grazing his cows FOR FREE on YOUR LAND. Keep that in mind. Folks around here pay their grazing fees for using public land. Why shouldn't he?

From what I understand he does want to pay the Feds but would pay the State. He doesn't want Federal interference on his right to graze state land. He can't pay either as he owes over a million in back taxes so he is making a big deal out of it. So if the Feds agree he owes the State will he pay it. Sounds like not.

I don't think he has much claim to the grazing. Land usage policies change. Deal with it like everyone else, and deal with it legally.

What I don't think is right, and what I think is the only reason it blew up into the national event it became, is the "free speech" areas. They even created a no fly zone to keep them from being filmed.

When the our government tries operating in secret, and is afraid of the public knowing what the public offices are doing on public land, then we have a problem. I believe that is the only thing that got the militia folk involved.

More information. Make sure to read the bottom part.

http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/

And do remember that info wars is NOT a site that specializes in either accurate or realistic information.

[This message has been edited by Amorette Allison (4/13/2014)]

Amorette is right. Infowars is a aluminum foil cap site for stupid Neanderthal morons.

I take that back. Neanderthals are smarter than the drooling idiots who read Infowars.

Steve, I am surprised that you would post such a link. I always thought you were somewhat smart.

Funny how when it's just hippies being herded into 'Free Speech' zones by the unindicted war criminal and torture enthusiast's administration, nary a word is heard from the militia's and the 'patriots'.

Looks like Harry Reid's Son and the Chinese lost out on this one.

Gunnar
I am 'somewhat smart'...sometimes.
I posted that just to see if I could get something going. We haven't had any all out blowups on here for a while. Okay, okay, I just read the article and didn't look at the source, but still...maybe there is a China scandal underneath it all?

Funny how when it's just hippies being herded into 'Free Speech' zones by the unindicted war criminal and torture enthusiast's administration, nary a word is heard from the militia's and the 'patriots'.

No funnier than how some groups of liberals bite their tongue when the Obama administration picks and chooses which laws will be enforced on which groups of people, or how they perpetually accuse conservatives of acting like six year olds, yet can't seem to construct a post of their own that isn't riddled with childlike insults and name calling.

Seems everyone has their own biases that dictate when they will go out of their way to defend or attack others. I don't know why anyone would hold others to a higher moral standard than they hold their own selves to, and then act surprised when they don't meet those standards.

No name calling necessary besides Clive Bundy is a cheap SOB who is exploiting the current political situation to get out of paying his rent.

Oh, OK, I get it....Clive's great, great grandfater....more then 100 years ago, settled on this property and developed a scheme whereby he'd teach his future generations to freeload off the government!!! Dang, that man sure had a vision!! What a sneaky, lazy deadbeat he was!!! So is Clive I guess. Make ya wonder why he don't just quit, and go on food stamps, Obama Care, and apply for HUD housing benifits like every body else???? Why do you suppose he's so anti-American???

Cliven's great, great grandfather was an illegal Morman polygamist who "settled" on this land without due title.

President James K. Polk stole this land from Mexico for the United States of America, which would eventually create the Bureau of Land Management to ensure that all its citizens reaps the benefits through leasing.

The wildlife that lives on public lands, as well as private lands, are in the trust of the United States of America, and are not owned by anyone. Therefore, public land management agencies must manage public lands for the benefit of the indigenous wildlife population, not just for the benefit of a few narrow minded individuals.

MSNBC wrote:

It’s not uncommon for conservative media to put a very different spin on current events than major news organizations. For example, news consumers who surround themselves with nothing but conservative media might believe right now that the Affordable Care Act is in a death spiral, the IRS “scandal” is heating up; the nation is facing a debt crisis; the Benghazi conspiracy will soon rock the White House; etc.

But once in a while, conservative media doesn’t just put a unique spin on the news, it also identifies stories that exist largely below the radar. Over the last week, for example, far-right news consumers have been captivated with coverage of Cliven Bundy, while for much of the American mainstream, that name probably doesn’t even sound familiar.

If you don’t know the story, it’s time to get up to speed.

...

This conflict arises out of rancher Cliven Bundy’s many years of illegally grazing his cattle on federal lands. In 1998, a federal court ordered Bundy to cease grazing his livestock on an area of federal land known as the Bunkerville Allotment, and required him to pay the federal government $200 per day per head of cattle remaining on federal lands. Around the time it issued this order, the court also commented that “[t]he government has shown commendable restraint in allowing this trespass to continue for so long without impounding Bundy’s livestock.” Fifteen years later, Bundy continued to defy this court order.

Last October, the federal government returned to court and obtained a new order, providing that “Bundy shall remove his livestock from the former Bunkerville Allotment within 45 days of the date hereof, and that the United States is entitled to seize and remove to impound any of Bundy’s cattle that remain in trespass after 45 days of the date hereof.” A third federal court order issued the same year explains that Bundy did not simply refuse to stop trespassing on federal lands – he actually expanded the range of his trespassing. According to the third order, “Bundy’s cattle have moved beyond the boundaries of the Bunkerville Allotment and are now trespassing on a broad swath of additional federal land (the “New Trespass Lands”), including public lands within the Gold Butte area that are administered by the BLM, and National Park System land within the Overton Arm and Gold Butte areas of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area.” The third order also authorizes the federal government to “impound any of Bundy’s cattle that remain in trespass.”

...

http://www.msnbc.com/rach...sis-nevada

Executive Order 12548 -- Grazing Fees
February 14, 1986

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, and in order to provide for establishment of appropriate fees for the grazing of domestic livestock on public rangelands, it is ordered as follows:

Section 1. Determination of Fees. The Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior are directed to exercise their authority, to the extent permitted by law under the various statutes they administer, to establish fees for domestic livestock grazing on the public rangelands which annually equals the $1.23 base established by the 1966 Western Livestock Grazing Survey multiplied by the result of the Forage Value Index (computed annually from data supplied by the Statistical Reporting Service) added to the Combined Index (Beef Cattle Price Index minus the Prices Paid Index) and divided by 100; provided, that the annual increase or decrease in such fee for any given year shall be limited to not more than plus or minus 25 percent of the previous year's fee, and provided further, that the fee shall not be less than $1.35 per animal unit month.

Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this Order, the term:

(a) ``Public rangelands'' has the same meaning as in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 (Public Law 95 - 514);

(b) ``Forage Value Index'' means the weighted average estimate of the annual rental charge per head per month for pasturing cattle on private rangelands in the 11 Western States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California) (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service from the June Enumerative Survey) divided by $3.65 and multiplied by 100;

(c) ``Beef Cattle Price Index'' means the weighted average annual selling price for beef cattle (excluding calves) in the 11 Western States (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, and California) for November through October (computed by the Statistical Reporting Service) divided by $22.04 per hundred weight and multiplied by 100; and

(d) ``Prices Paid Index'' means the following selected components from the Statistical Reporting Service's Annual National Index of Prices Paid by Farmers for Goods and Services adjusted by the weights indicated in parentheses to reflect livestock production costs in the Western States: 1. Fuels and Energy (14.5); 2. Farm and Motor Supplies (12.0); 3. Autos and Trucks (4.5); 4. Tractors and Self-Propelled Machinery (4.5); 5. Other Machinery (12.0); 6. Building and Fencing Materials (14.5); 7. Interest (6.0); 8. Farm Wage Rates (14.0); 9. Farm Services (18.0).

Sec. 3. Any and all existing rules, practices, policies, and regulations relating to the administration of the formula for grazing fees in section 6(a) of the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 shall continue in full force and effect.

Sec. 4. This Order shall be effective immediately.

Ronald Reagan

The White House,

February 14, 1986.

[Filed with the Office of the Federal Register, 10:32 a.m., February 18, 1986]

Gunnar says:

"public land management agencies must manage public lands for the benefit of the indigenous wildlife population"

The question is, why do "public land management agencies" need Marine Battalion level armament and tactics to "manage"?

Bothers me. It should bother you.


"Cliven's great, great grandfather was an illegal Morman polygamist who "settled" on this land without due title."

Gee, Gunnar. If you really feel that way, genuine moral outrage would demand that you be the first one to get back on the boat.

Stand up for your principles, young man. Load up!

Jeri

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the Constitutional questions involving the "equal footing" provision of the Constitution, The Taylor Grazing Act (FDR) and the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (FLPMA)(Jimmy Carter) before posting irrelevant Executive actions by Ronald Reagan. Then maybe you will understand what the "illegal Mormon (squatters)" are talking about on the Fox News you probably claim you don't watch.

Larry:

When did Rachel Maddow and MSNBC end up in a different category than Alex Jones and Infowars? One is tinfoil asshattery. The other is ???

What?

All the hand wringing on both sides of this issues is largely irrelevant. The BLM will simply go back to Washington and engage their big brother, the IRS, who will subsequently destroy the Bundys and their ilk.

And none of you will care.

Real patriots pay their taxes. Mr. Claven has profited unjustly by not paying the fees that his competitors are paying to stay within the bounds of law.

Mr. Claven is a moocher and an insurrectionist, as evidenced by his appeals to Posse Commitatus and Freemen ideology. Maybe that sort of thinking flies down behind the Zion Curtain, but Montana feels (or at least, felt) differently about that sort of nonsense.

I hope every one of those treasonous bastards has to stand before the bar and answer for what they did. If they don't, then this country is ungovernable, and it wasn't 'the left' that made it so.

OMG..Sure hate to mess things up by posting an old Ex. Order.? I was mistaken in thinking it had substance.

Jeri, I'm sure you weren't aware of the deep principles involved in this case that are enshrined in the Magna Carta either, so please don't disrespect the constitutional lawyering that oddjob's fixin' to lay down upon us.

The man owns a 100 acre melon farm and is grazing his cattle all over hell and gone without paying for it. Period. It is not fair either to those of us who believe the Federal budget could use the help or to those of us who actually do pay our taxes and our grazing fees. It is OUR land, NOT HIS. Very simple.
The rest of it is just blather to try to distract people, like the pretty girl the magician uses to flap her hands and draw our eyes away from the trick.

I actually agree with Bridger, and Amorette about Bundy. The guy was grazing cattle on public land lawfully, but when the government, who is charged with managing the public land in the best interest of the public/habitat/etc., decided they didn't want as many cattle on the land, instead of cutting back, he actually increased the number of head on the land, and stopped paying his grazing fees. If he didn't like the restrictions he should have filed some sort of appeal or lawsuit, but he chose the path that he did, and the consequences that are now coming down on him. I have no problem with the BLM removing the cattle from the public land. He had plenty of opportunity to remove them himself and chose not to.

I still believe it wouldn't have been a big national news ordeal if the BLM had just done it and arrested anyone trying to interfere. I'm sure some overly gung ho militia folk got involved over the cattle, but I don't believe that would have ever happened if the BLM hadn't created the media worthy event by screwing around with the free speech zone BS in the first place.

I do have to admit that I was rather annoyed when I saw the first two militiamen were from Utah and MONTANA. I thought, "Great, just what Montana needed, more media making Montana look like a bunch of militia survivalist nutcases."

It wouldn't have been a big deal until it was pimped by Sean Hannity.

"Free Speech Zones" have become fairly commonplace in the last 15 years or so - I would assume that one was established here so as to limit the ability of protesters to interfere with the roundup, which is fairly reasonable, given that roundups are generally only a hairs-breath or two away from a complete clustrfck under the best of conditions.

"Cliven's great, great grandfather was an illegal Morman polygamist who "settled" on this land without due title."

Gee, Gunnar. If you really feel that way, genuine moral outrage would demand that you be the first one to get back on the boat.

Stand up for your principles, young man. Load up!

I have no idea what you are babbling about, OJ. My ancestors filed their land claims in accordance with the homestead acts, which the federal government deeded to them after they either paid their fees or met the government's requirements in accordance with the law. Cliven is squatting, as other posted here. He is claiming he owns all the federal land he is leasing, which is not the case.

What you think that has to do with deporting all the Europeans in this country is beyond me. Are you Cactus Plains posting under another name? It is increasingly hard to hold an intelligent conversation with you on this forum. I am quite serious when I ask you if you have had your physician check for the onset of Alzheimer's.

Rupert Murdoch has done more damage to this country than any terrorist ever.

In 1998, a federal court ordered Bundy to cease grazing his livestock on an area of federal land known as the Bunkerville Allotment, and required him to pay the federal government $200 per day per head of cattle remaining on federal lands.

200 dollars per day per head..............
If this is the going rate for BLM, then Montana ranchers you had better get on board and start leasing your lands. In 3-4 DAYs you have more in the cow than it is worth!

It's probably the going rate for scofflaws and insurrectionists. I don't know very many ranchers who have to get their grazing fees set by the courts.

Bridgier is correct, that is the rate for violators.

The Clean Water Act specifies up to $25,000 per day for violators,

Only in extreme circumstances, when the violator refuses to correct his/her actions, are the the maximum penalties invoked.

We are a society who lives by laws. The officials we elect make the laws. Our president signs the laws to make them effective.

These laws, and our elected officials, seemed just fine when they went into act a generation ago under St. Ronny. Why are they so terrible now?

As I stated at the beginning of this thread Mr. Bundy should pay his grazing fees to the entity they are actually owed.

That said, I do have a concern that this incident will further motivate the remove all cows from public lands crowd. That would be an unfortunate consequence. Proper livestock grazing is absolutely essential to maintain the health and vigor of our rangelands. The BLM's approach in this matter greatly damages a necessary agency-rancher relationship which is key to sound ecological practice. It is unfortunate the land ecosystem always takes the hit in these kinds of confrontational situations.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (4/15/2014)]

"Alzheimer's"

Yeah, right. Maybe that's why I still can't figure out what an "illegal Mormon" is.

You know, I don't really give a rats a** about Cliven Bundy, his cows, or his legal problem. What gets tiresome is these bureaucrat "SWAT" teams storming in and sticking guns in everyone's faces. Since I've been down here, there have been at least 5 or 6 of these "incidents". They have been over cows, horses, public roads, Indians, "un-permitted" s***houses and now, "illegal Mormons" stomping on government turtles.

Every time, the reaction has gotten more intense because, frankly, people are getting damn tired of having these clowns running around armed to the teeth in the "Land of the Free." They ignore local law enforcement, local government and do stupid s*** that violates people's rights, like trespass on private property, close public roads and set up "free speech zones".

Most of them are BLM, USFS, USFW or Park Service pencil-pushers who can't spell P.O.S.T. let alone figure out what it is, yet they are packing fully automatic weapons. While they are going after the "scofflaws and insurrectionists", they threaten and tromp all over people,(who are probably better armed than they are) who have nothing to do with the current "action". If they keep it up, there will be dead women, kids and bureaucrats laying all over one of these sites in the future.

Somebody mentioned that good Montana ranchers are all well behaved patriots. Well, that's probably because they haven't had enough gun barrels stuck in their ears yet. I figure that will be changing when they get the Sage Grouse listed. Alphabet-SWAT will be coming to your town.

It's a little early in the morning to start huffing glue isn't it?

Here's some of your fellow traveler's thoughts on killing women, fyi...

It was Richard Mack, a former Arizona county sheriff and founder of the Constitutional Sheriffs, who had said Monday that the gathered self-described militia had considered using women as human shields if a gunfight with federal officials erupted. He elaborated on those comments Monday in an interview with radio host Ben Swann.

“It was a tactical plot that I was trying to get them to use,” Mack said in comments flagged by The Raw Story. “If they’re going to start killing people, I’m sorry, but to show the world how ruthless these people are, women needed to be the first ones shot.”

“I’m sorry, that sounds horrible,” he continued. “I would have put my own wife or daughters there, and I would have been screaming bloody murder to watch them die. I would gone next, I would have been the next one to be killed. I’m not afraid to die here. I’m willing to die here.”It was Richard Mack, a former Arizona county sheriff and founder of the Constitutional Sheriffs, who had said Monday that the gathered self-described militia had considered using women as human shields if a gunfight with federal officials erupted. He elaborated on those comments Monday in an interview with radio host Ben Swann.

http://www.balloon-juice....-a-target/

Ruby Ridge and Waco were 20 years ago - the feds have had a pretty hands off policy of de-escalation since then, imo...

Oddjob wrote:

"Yeah, right. Maybe that's why I still can't figure out what an "illegal Mormon" is."

I wonder if you can figure out what an adjective is.

A six-pack of your favorite swill says the sage grouse won't be listed.

Starting at 3 minutes - seems like I wasn't off on the Chinese issue. Sure there are other issue about the unpaid grazing, but there seems to be more than a kernel of truth about Reid's involvement.

http://scgnews.com/bundy-...e=share-fb

Oh, please. Check with Snopes about that whopper.

Here you go:

http://www.snopes.com/pol...nevada.asp

As already reported:

It’s not uncommon for conservative media to put a very different spin on current events than major news organizations. For example, news consumers who surround themselves with nothing but conservative media might believe right now that the Affordable Care Act is in a death spiral, the IRS “scandal” is heating up; the nation is facing a debt crisis; the Benghazi conspiracy will soon rock the White House; etc.

That's not a dis on being conservative, or libertarian, or anything else. It's the fact about the "news" being fed, in particular, to conservatives. Use your brain.

Come on! I'm just trying to keep the thread going. It's been a long time since we've had a good un.

An example of a true rancher (not that squatter nutjob) ...

Daily Kos wrote:

Being a Westerner and the daughter and granddaughter of cattle ranchers, I think it's about time that the non-crazy Western ranchers get some equal national media time. Because they're not all federal government-hating, "wise use," sagebrush rebelling, gun-toting crazies—even in a state like Idaho. One of Idaho's most influential cattle ranchers, and conservationists is proof of that. His name was Bud Purdy, and in his 96 years, he became sort of a legend in the state. Unfortunately, he passed away this week, but this remembrance from the Idaho Stateman's Rocky Barker tells the story.

...

http://www.dailykos.com/s...rancher-is

A great video. Thanks for posting.

If Mr. Bundy prefers a country with a weak central government where armed gangs roam shooting at will, may I suggest his take himself south of the border and bother the folks in Mexico. We won't miss him.

Somolia doesn't have grazing fees either.

Considering some of the "militia's" organizers very vocal plans of using women and children as human shields if/when things turned violent, I do commend the BLM and other local agencies for de-escalating this situation.

When people are determined to "make a statement with violence", responding with NON-violence, maturity, and concern for everyone's life and humanity (regardless of what "side" they may be on) is the best choice. People are far too hasty to respond to even small slights or injustices with violence.

This can be solved without guns... if that's the only option people have, that's ignorance talking.

Richard proposes"

"A six-pack of your favorite swill says the sage grouse won't be listed."

Sorry, Richard.

I refuse to take advantage of anyone foolish enough to believe this is not a political listing.

Besides, they don't even make Schmidt any more, do they?

Dies anyone know: Under what Federal statute does the BLM have authority to carry semi-automatic rifles in pursuit of felons inasmuch as there are seldom any felonies committed on public land?

Fair question, but I am sure there is several statues that forbid drawing aim on govment officials with any weapon. There were several "supporters" that did just that. With automatic weapons too. A bloodbath was much closer to happenin than most of us believe. And many of the supporters already had the "Waco" and "Ruby Ridge" cards ready to play.

Salon wrote:

The latest right-wing media poster-victim, Cliven Bundy, is just the latest in a long line of desert dwellers who thinks he or she should not have to follow the law and has a god-given right to unlimited use of public resources, in this case, rangeland. I know the mentality well, because I grew up in rural Nevada and clung desperately to such beliefs until only a few years ago.

Bundy has not paid grazing fees in close to 20 years, while the federal government has, with painful, stupid moves, tried to somehow deal with him. Bundy also faced restrictions because he continued to graze cattle on a slice of public land reserved for the endangered desert tortoise. He was invited to talk to Sean Hannity (of course) about the “standoff.”

“We want freedom,” Bundy said. I don’t know what freedom Bundy’s talking about. He does not own the land nor does he even pay the modest fees required to use it. Thousands of ranchers across the West pay fees for their businesses, but Bundy thinks he should get to use public resources to make a personal profit. Cliven Bundy, far from being a patriot, is also clearly a straight-up communist.

...

http://www.salon.com/2014...o_patriot/

Mr. Bundy really screwed up. He should've told the Feds that these were Mexican cattle that migrated north to take advantage of better grazing opportunities. An Act of Love. The Feds would immediately put them on welfare, given them food stamps, free phones, free Odumbacare health plan, and registered them to vote.

Does it hurt?

When I watched the interviews with Mr. Bundy, he dodged the question of whether or not his cattle were on grazing on state land or private land, so it seems evident he's in the wrong. Harry Reid said Mr. Bundy had not paid grazing fees or state taxes. It was my understanding Nevada doesn't have state taxes. Am I incorrect on this?
But I sincerely want to know, from curiosity, how to find the Federal statute stating BLM authority to carry semi-automtic weapons. I'm not being flippant here. This is a genuine question. Is there such authority? Thanks.

The BLM has law enforcement officers:

"The BLM fields a force of approximately 200 Law Enforcement Rangers (uniformed officers) and 70 Special Agents (criminal investigators) who enforce a wide range of laws and regulations in the prevention, detection, and investigation of crimes affecting public lands resources. These crimes include mineral resource theft; wilderness area violations; hazardous materials dumping; archaeological and paleontological resource theft and vandalism; cultivation, manufacture, smuggling, and use of illegal drugs; timber, forest product, and native plant theft; off-highway vehicle use; alcohol related crimes; and wildland arson."

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/...ement.html

Nevada has no individual income tax but may have other types of tax.

Thanks for the clarification! It appears the drug issue on public land are the only felony cases where semi-automatic weapons are justified. The rest seem to be misdemeanor or civil cases. we already have the DEA to handle this so why the expensive duplication? Too many Federal agencies are handling the same types of crime and all seem to want semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons.

Well, what if one of them runs across a murder in progress? Or one of a million other scenarios? They are law enforcement officers. What are they supposed to do? Pull their finger out and say "stick 'em up"?

So, crazy folks can run around with semi-automatic weapons and that's all second amendment. Trained officers in the line of duty with semi-automatic weapons and we start panicking. Having met some of those Freemen types, trust me, you want the guys on our side to have good guns, too.

Employees of BLM are not law enforcement officers. If they run across a crime, they are to preserve the crime scene and notify the County Sheriff. The personnel of BLM have particular designated authority but when it comes to crime, it's the jurisdiction of the County Sheriff. BLM are concerned with flora and fauna.
Where was the brand inspector? He has armed authority.
Bundy was wrong in that he should have obeyed existing law, even if he's trying to change it.
Marshal Dillon would have this whole thing solved in a black and white
half hour program!

So, you are facing a bunch of gun nuts who want to shoot somebody and you go in unarmed? Be my guest.

Employees of BLM are not law enforcement officers. If they run across a crime, they are to preserve the crime scene and notify the County Sheriff. The personnel of BLM have particular designated authority but when it comes to crime, it's the jurisdiction of the County Sheriff. BLM are concerned with flora and fauna.

Huh.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/...ngers.html

flora and fauna

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/...gents.html

but when it comes to crime, it's the jurisdiction of the County Sheriff

"We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot" Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack

Huh.

Former sheriff? He sounds like a great guy, willing to sacrifice the women and children for a photo op. Just wow!

I think Cheryl posted this hoping to find support for the wrongdoer. When that didn't happen, she moved on to hoping we would be upset with federal agents doing their job against a rabble of nuts. Sadly, we are mostly a fairly intelligent, well-educated bunch hereabouts who can call a spade a spade.

Or, in this case, a crook and a bunch of nuts a crook and bunch of nuts.

So stuck on my well-educated self and way above the lower crust.
Fish/pond come to mind?
Enough to gag a maggot of a gut pile.

Yes sir, hypocrisy is alive and well. A bunch of nuts and a crook? Let's call a spade a spade, no pun intended. Al Sharpton owes 2.5 million in back taxes to the IRS yet there are no Federal armed thugs threatening him. Couldn't possibly be that he's a buddy buddy of Odumba and Holder? Yet Dirty Harry Reid and the Obama administration chooses to call a Nevada rancher a domestic terrorist for not paying grazing fee/taxes which is less than half of what Al Sharpton owes. No double standard in this country. Maybe there are two Americas?

Andy-- can we get a citation on Sharpton's 2.5mil in taxes owed to the IRS claim? I have not been able to varify that claim.

What I did find was that Sharpton has had tax problems since 2008, but HAS BEEN PAYING ON THEM to both the State and the IRS (but never as much as 2.5mil to the IRS).

So... the IRS files liens against Sharpton and he's been paying on them; but we should be going after him just as hard as Bundy? Bundy, who has NOT paid on a grazing permit for 19 years is a Patriot and hero and the government should just leave him alone?

I don't get it.

Former Governor, Brian Schweitzer, was on a TV show yesterday and the discussion was about Mr. Bundy. He pointed out that Land Laws came into being in 1936 as a matter of necessity. That the Cattlemen and Stockgrowers Associations are not on this guys bandwagon as they know the law. That Mr. Bundy, unless he is raising his cattle for pets, has a personal brand on them and when they go to Market...a Brand Inspector will note the brand..and, the revenue generated from them will go to pay off what is owed the Government. And...he noted that Mr. Bundy is a "Welfare Cowboy"...one who does not want to pay his way...but, does reap the benefits of others who do so. It seems we had similar behavior in Montana a few years ago. The interesting one was how they were going to take over Winnett, MT and have their own town.

Addicting Info wrote:

One of the more amusing reactions to the right leaping to defend Nevada freeloader Cliven Bundy is the “grassroots” talking point about, of all people, Al Sharpton:

“Why are Libtards so upset about Bundy owing money when Al Sharpton owes twice as much and they put him on TV?”

“WHY Aren’t The FEDS At Al Sharpton’s Homefront As They Were At Cliven Bundy’s?”

“Al sharpton, lil Wayne both black both owe the govt millions. No helicopters no armed federal agents. Not to mention the BLM likely spent over a million to fail at rounding up cattle.”

“Obama is set to headline Al Sharpton’s National Action Network (NAN) … It still owes $1.9 million in back taxes and penalties. Why isn’t anyone bitching about that.“

And what, precisely, does Al Sharpton’s tax problems have to do with anything? Other than absolutely nothing? Could it be that he’s black and we should be offended that a black man is “getting away” with being a tax cheat but the poor, beleaguered white man is being persecuted for stealing from taxpayers? Oh my, yes. How DARE a black man get away with something while a white man is punished for it?!

This is more than right wingers trying desperately to distract from the indisputable fact that their “hero,” the freeloading Bundy, stopped paying the fee to use public lands almost 20 years ago. This is pure racism and they’re not even trying to hide it. If Bundy were black, right wingers would be screaming for his head on a silver platter. The Sharpton talking point proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. The right is literally saying that a black man should be punished for the same crime as the white guy while, in the same breath, complaining that the government is trying to punish the white guy.

http://www.addictinginfo....-sharpton/

Guess I should not have used Al Sharpton as an example. He ain't worth the effort. Now he's comparing Obama to Jesus Christ. Good Grief! What next? The point I tried to make was the current administration is totally corrupt and will pick and choose who they want to prosecute without cleaning up their own back yard. They are provoking and fomenting violence. They raided the Gibson musical instrument factories in Memphis and Nashville with full auto weapons claiming Gibson was using illegal wood to make their guitars. Really? They need guns to do this? Bundy's had not exhibited any violence either before the Federal attack. The Federal goons pushed Mrs. Bundy to the ground and tazed the son. I've heard the Feds have spent over $3 million sending in their thugs trying to collect a $1 million debt. Really efficient crime fighters. The Obama administration has not investigated or charged anyone in the Fast and Furious gun trafficking crime. No one has been fired or charged with complicity in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. Holder has been held in contempt of Congress cuz he refuses to cooperate. Of course, you can't expect a criminal to prosecute himself. Think they'll investigate and prosecute Lovely Lois in the IRS Scandal? Think again. They have failed to investigate and charge anyone in the Bengahzi coverup. The Obama administration is corrupt beyond belief. It appears it might be finally catching up with them. If Bundy's stood up against these frauds, maybe more will.

"call a spade a spade"

"i've heard"

"fast and furious"

"bengahzi"

Bridgier, I think you left out:

"IRS Scandal"

Andy should try watching something other than Fox "News".

Fox should change its name to an animal that better represents it's pernicious nature. How about Wolf or Coyote news. Or maybe Lion New, "we distort, you're the pride". Let's enforce truth in labeling laws.

Mr. Bundy is among those who believe that there should be no federal land because the Feds were supposed to turn it over upon the state entering the union. He believe that his grazing fees should go to the county instead of federal Payment in Lieu of Taxes. NV receives much less than most other states do for PLT payments.

While he might have a point with regard to the Feds retaining land, the facts are it's been that way for a very long time. There have been multiple court decisions that have upheld the current system. The truth is most state governments in the West don't have the cash to properly manage lands currently administered by the BLM or FS. Spreading those cost over the entire federal tax base is a more economical solution. We should think of it as a single payer land health system.

Mr. Bundy and his associates should pay their grazing fees to the enitiy they are owed.

Ol' Clive sure has fired up folks on both sides of the spectrum. In this case, in my opinion, both sides have some good firm ground from which to make their point. Maybe, somebody on the left can help me understand Harry Reid"s position. I heard him in an interview call all those people who came out to peacefully support Bundy "terrorists". Those are the people he represents!!! Is the freedom to voice ones opinion (if it disagrees with Harry)now constitute a capital crime?

Hey, if you had a disagreement with your neighbor, and he had a bunch of friends show up with lots and lots and lots of guns, would you characterize that as 'peaceful'?

Showing up at any sort of rally or political gathering with a weapon is an inherently aggressive act, and I don't think you get to call it peaceful as long as no one actually pulls a trigger.

Some of the participants were on the news last night and introducing themselves as being from other states. The Tea Party Rep from Bozeman, MT is even attending. They went because they say that they "think like him". Lots of guys and gals with guns and little children.

What does free speech have to do with this guy cheating me out of my money? He can say whatever he wants but he needs to stop being a freeloader.

"We should think of it as a single payercentral planning land healthcontrol system."

Fixed it for you, Richard.

Montanans are "well behaved."

Similarly intimidated seems more like it....

http://www.ammoland.com/2...z2zB1BkEx7

Why don't you anarchist f-wads have the courage of your convictions and either rise up in insurrection like the treasonous vipers you are, or move to somalia where penis-size disputes can be successfully adjudicated via caliber and/or clip capacity?

Otherwise, pay your goddamned taxes and quit being such drama queens.

I'm telling you, Mexico. Weak central government. Folks with automatic weapons running around shooting at random. Tea bag paradise.

So Bridger....You got some hard line advice for Conservative thinking activists. What's your position on the "Occupy Wall Street" Crowd?

Right?! Because Occupy Wall Street used so many guns and children.

Oddjob wrote:

"We should think of it as a central planning land control system."

And where do you think the land you are standing on right now came from?

I'm not referring to the American Indians or France or any other nation.

I'm asking who was the original U.S. legal owner, the original grantor of title in the land specifically under your feet (look down) - right now?

Right. It was the Federal Government of the United States.

The one who gave up ownership 100 or 150 or whatever years ago to people like you, and did not give away or sell all of it.

The same Federal Government we have now. The same Federal Government attempting to manage those same lands. The same Federal Government some of you seem to hate.

Central planning is a good thing, especially when it comes to land management. And it's "central planning whether the state does it or the Feds do it. When the Feds do it we don't have all of the boundry issues that your get when states are "planning". I've done several projects on a state boundary and it's a pain I the rear end.

"Central planning is a good thing, especially when it comes to land management."

So, let me see if I have this right.....

Hundreds of millions of board-feet of marketable timber being destroyed by catastrophic fires and beetle infestation every year is "good management".

Millions of acres of prime range land going up in smoke so it can be infested with cheat grass for the next round of fires is "ecosystem restoration".

Now I understand why the loggers, miners, farmers and cattlemen, who were supposed to finance this grand scheme are disappearing along with all the wildlife.

I also see why hunters, fishermen, campers, backpackers and all users of "multiple use" lands find closed roads, locked gates, confrontations with armed Federal "managers" and trips to Federal Courts for trespassing as an integral part of their wilderness experience.

They are being "managed" out of existence by good central planning.

Got it.

You would think those idiots in Nevada would understand that it's all for the "good of the people".

Happy Earth Day

Umm... Those issues are not the fault of central planning. They are the result of special interest NGO's that don't understand ecosystems.

Oh Oddjob, you are such a simpleton. LOL. My advice is to stick to silly chemtrails websites.

I wish I had a megaphone to give this the really loud "hell ya" that it deserves. (Intended for Kellys pic)

[This message has been edited by Mathew Schmitz (4/22/2014)]

Oddjob's great-great-grandfather.

Need to check out the Daily Show

http://thedailyshow.cc.co...alypse-cow

"special interest NGO's"

Don't write the regs. The "highly educated" ecosystem specialists of the bureaucracy, using their vast body of scientific expertise do. Which essentially translates into: Damn the science. Give them what they want or they will sue us.

The end result being the destruction of "your" public land and the livelihood of millions of citizens.

Are you are content to sit on your hands and accept (and pay for) this performance standard, while criticizing those who will not accept it?

Apparently so.

Oh, and Kelly..

The Constitution does not "belong" to the Federal Government. It belongs to the American people...All of them. It defines the limited powers that will be granted, BY THE PEOPLE, to a Federal Government. "Owning" vast parcels of land within the boundaries of the admitted States is not one of them. If you had stayed awake in Government class, perhaps you would have heard that.

So... when the United States bought Alaska, or the Louisiana Purchase, or took possession of former Mexican or Spanish territories through treaties the title to those lands was held by... nobody?

Of course the Constitution belongs to the Government...we the people are the Government..of us, by us and for us.

Exposing more lies on the Cliven Bundy story...

http://www.addictinginfo....ims-bogus/

And, also from the local TV news station ...

http://www.8newsnow.com/s...d=10077043

As usual Jon Stewart nails it.
http://thedailyshow.cc.co...214_tds_81

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (4/23/2014)]

I don't see much difference between these goobers and
--- Posse Comitatus - Gordon Kahl
--- The Freemen
--- The Militia Movement - Timmy McVeigh, et al...

other than the fact that elected officials and the wingnut media sees Cliven Bundy as a hero.

They're all a bunch of traitors.

Just like that bastard Lee. They should have hung him and Davis from the same tree.

Turns out Mr. Bundy has some very "enlightened" views on "The Negro."

What a surprise!

SPOILER - it involves cotton.

Color me surprised! (Not.) AND he knows a black person so he can't be the racist *sshole he appears to be. (YES HE IS!)

Bob L.

Pretty good list and hard to argue against, but you stopped a little short. You could and should continue with some more.

--- Students For A Democratic Society AKA SDS
--- Weather Underground
--- Yippie
--- Symbionese Liberation Army AKA SLA
--- Black Panthers
--- Earth First and the other "Tree Hugger" groups
--- Move On et al

You are a big time better and play the odds. What are the odds that in a discussion of this kind, who will be the first to play the "race" card, and then the "homophobe" card?

I realize that you're a little long in the tooth there pappy, but with the exception of 'ELF' and 'MoveOn' (really? move on? jesus wept), all of those organizations ceased operation BEFORE I WAS BORN, and I'm not exactly a spring chicken any more.

We're less than a year away from the 20th anniversary of Clive Bundy's fellow travelers killing 168 people in Oklahoma city, while I could probably count up the body count for all of those other groups without having to take off my socks.

CLEAN UP YOUR OWN GODDAMNED PARTY PLEASE.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (4/24/2014)]

Next thing will be Lincoln was a Republican. Need some new music, folks.

Problem still is this guy doesn't want to pay taxes (if the land is 'his,' why isn't he out hollering for a tax bill?) or grazing fees. He is a FREELOADER and all the pontificating in the world doesn't change that.

He owes me money.

Here we go again!! I DO NOT support nor sympathize with the groups mentioned, but it would be disingenuous to leave it at only those 3.

Sonny, I realize you are almost potty trained and have cut most of your baby teeth, with a little more maturity and education, you may recognize some of the mentioned groups et al are alive and well under the same or slightly different persona. Seems some folks can not help being an ideologue or poster child for some ism.

Your advise to CLEAN UP YOUR OWN GODDAMED PARTY PLEASE would be dependent upon the party, would it not? In my OLD age I have learned that skunks come in many stripes. Some try to fool you by looking like a *ussy cat with no stripe at all.

[This message has been edited by ike eichler (4/24/2014)]

I read this somewhere, can't remember who said it...


Not all REPUBLICANS are RACISTS, but almost all RACISTS are REPUBLICANS

As long as we are being funny and post in jest.

I see all DEMOCRATS are JACK-AZZES

Not posting in jest, Ike.

Another post in jest, but personalized for you.

Hold up your hand, fold your little finger against your thumb, then read between the lines.

Settle down boys. Can't we all just get along?

by David Schott
Here you go:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp

Please provide something more credible than Snopes. They are a tool and rarely report the 100% whole truth. Snopes is operated by a couple who how they feel they should report a story or how they know will not get them into hot water with the PTB.

I have seen them twist issues before, just like they did with this one.

There was proof that Harry Reid was negotiating with the Chinese, and it did involve Land in his home state of Nevada, proof that when the allegations first broke, were quickly taken off of the Nevada BLM website (which is directly supervised by his former political advisor Neil Kornze). Now, here is where Snopes is twisting things -- they are focusing completely on a small fact that in this case, the land deal was not involving Clark County. So, four fifths of the issue is True, but they call it completely false. They completely ignore the fact that First Solar is running quite a few solar projects in Nevada -- supported by funding achieved by Harry Reid, under the management of Harry's son Rory. It also fails to address how Harry has sponsored bills that allow those in the administration to legally hide their dealings with foreign businesses/Countries such as this. So, how do we know that the reason Snopes could not find anything isn't due to Harry's S715 bill that was signed into law by the President four days after it was introduced and became Public Law 113-7 last April.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s716

Please make certain that Snopes is reporting the whole truth before using snopes as a reference.

I'll take the word of "snopes" over "govtrack.us" any day.

GOVTRACK.US "Crazy New Obama Tax" by dave_mcmt, on Flickr

[This message has been edited by David Schott (5/4/2014)]

by Dave Roberts
Huh.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/mo...ent/blm_rangers.html

flora and fauna

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/mo..._Special_Agents.html

Another unconstitutional Agency that the shepple of America believe is “Necessary and Proper” when in fact their very existence is a Violation of the United States Constitution.

Congress was never given the authority to create such a law enforcement agency. Don't believe me, follow along.

Look at Article 1 section 8 Powers of Congress and explain to me how Clause 10 which states

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations

can be considered as applicable to defining and punishing felonies committed on US Soil. Or possibly you think that Clause 14 of

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces

might somehow apply simply because the Government owns the BLM land or how BLM land is considered as being a Land Force -- Military Soldiers. Sorry, land does not operate the Government, Land is not a Military Soldier or collection thereof, and justification for BLM Law Enforcement Agents is not the purpose of clause 14. Maybe you would think, for whatever reason, that BLM Agents are somehow a part of the Militia? Follow along here. What is Clause 15?

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions

Now we are getting somewhere. Congress is only supposed to use the Militia to enforce or execute the laws of the United States of America!

Now, I do know a bunch of folks who have tried to convince me that Clause 18 applies. Let us look at it.

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

If someone can show me anywhere in the Constitution where it say’s that a National Law Enforcement Branch will be established or that Laws to Govern the Citizens and not just the Government are required in order for the 18th clause to be valid, please explain to me how that can be.

Here is a link to Article 1 Section 8 for you to read. if you go to that page and take out the underscore through 8 and hit enter, you will be able to view the whole US Constitution.
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

by David Schott
I'll take the word of "snopes" over "govtrack.us" any day.

Ok, then look at our own US congress for a bill that supports what GovTrack is saying and that Snopes completely ignores.
http://beta.congress.gov/...%22%5D%7D

[This message has been edited by Donald Mullikin (5/4/2014)]

You want to know why Harry Reid and his son Rory were so vocal over the Cliven Bundy fiasco? Most of you are unaware of the crooked dealings the Reids have been involved with in Clark County, Nevada, because it's never in the media. Harry's son, Rory was a County Commissioner (2002 - 2008)and was heavily involved in modifying the County Master Plan (published in 2006) during his tenure. He is now the lawyer representing the Chinese Solar Company that's tied to Harry.

Harry's buddy, Harvey Whittemore is a Las Vegas developer who just went to prison for illegal campaign contributions to Reid. Whittemore, in his life before prison, was a benefactor of numerous BLM land swaps of YOUR PUBLIC LAND to private developers around Las Vegas. Those deals were shepherded through Interior and Congress by who? Harry Reid, of course.

Now I don't know if Whittemore is involved in this particular deal or not. I threw this in for known example of how Reid's crony capitalism operates. If not, there are a dozen more "Whittemores" in Harry's pocket and Harry's fingerprints are all over this.

This is an excerpt from a letter that was sent to a friend of mine in response to an inquiry by him. The work is being done by a local Nevada PAC who's focus is on this corruption. And yes, they are affiliated with the TEA PARTY, so they are hardly a neutral party in wanting this information out there. Nonetheless, it's all public record, so connect the dots yourself.....

"We've been digging into the BLM's outrageous conduct at Bundy Ranch, and into the backstory on the Cliven Bundy matter, and here's what we've found. In 2006, Clark County published its 2006 Northeast County Planned Land Use map. We compared that map to the existing assessor's map of Cliven Bundy's land, and what we found was explosive: every single privately owned parcel of land around Cliven Bundy was purchased for residential use. That means that real estate developers intended to build housing on the land around Bundy Ranch.

Of course, you can't do that with a cattle ranch in proximity, nor can you rely on the water from the Virgin River with a melon farm smack in the middle of your development. The reason is simple: melons are water intensive on the front end, and Cliven Bundy's water rights would predate any water rights conveyed to the developers. He'd be first in line.

We also found an interesting revelation in the county map. Across the bottom of the land parcel in question, the flow of privately owned land is uninterrupted. Of course, that isn't the case today and it wasn't the case back then. The BLM controls a parcel of land smack in the middle of privately owned land in the 2006 map. Why would Clark County draw the map the way they did, unless they knew in advance that the BLM would be open to transferring the land to private real estate developers?

It is our belief that Clark County and the BLM worked in collusion for a number of years in the hopes of driving Cliven Bundy off of his melon farm, so that their Northeast County Planned Land Use map could become a reality. Right off of State Road 170, and running along the Virgin River, would be a housing development built and overseen by rich, politically connected developers who would be first in line for BLM land auctions of public land. The BLM would clear out Cliven Bundy and his cattle and melons, and developers could do as they pleased.

Harry Reid would get his solar plant offset on the BLM's public lands, developers would get their real estate to build new housing, and Cliven Bundy would be the odd man out. Additionally, how much would you like to bet that Harry Reid had designs on forcing the new houses to be customers of his solar power plant buddies?"

Source: Western Representation PAC

Remember that Cliven Bundy quit paying his grazing fees because the BLM cut his allotment of AUM's back to where he couldn't make a living with cows and was essentially being forced out of business. The same thing the BLM did to all the other ranchers in the area, they did force out of business......

But then, it's all about saving the desert tortoise, isn't it.

Haven't seen Cliven on Fox News lately??