Connecticut shootings
Posted by Means (+30) 8 years ago
Let's us all pray for the familys of the shooting's in Connecticut.
That's all I have to say
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Posted by Jimmie (+61) 8 years ago
Why would praying to someone who didn't prevent the trajedy in the first place do any good?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
Why would praying to someone who didn't prevent the trajedy in the first place do any good?




It is becoming increasingly difficult for me when I hear people say "pray for the victims" to a god that has purportedly "all-powerful", "all-knowing" resources and yet fails to prevent tragedy, to have even a modicum of respect for their belief. Their self-delusion is irritating and yet I am frustrated with my own response to such people. Hopefully, it is just a phase and I will figure out how to more positively express my responses.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 8 years ago
I kind of agree with you Richard, However I know that it helps some people, and at times I wish that it were true for me. I would probably be less depressed right now if I was one who beleived in prayer.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
"Prayer" or "meditation" for the purposes of creating brain chemistry in order to cope with our individual cognitive dissonance I understand and can accept. Talking to some personification in another realm and attempting to coax it into changing its behavior, granting some request, or other associated activities is rather non sequitur.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
+1 Lorin.

More guns, more bodies, more freedom.
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Posted by Jimmie (+61) 8 years ago
it's just common sense to me. If there was a person who knew my kid was gonna die, and did nothing to stop it, I wouldn't think about going to him to help me deal with the loss of my kid. Doesn't make any sense.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 8 years ago
I would rather this turned into a disccusion on the pros & cons of some form of gun control instead of the benefits, or not of belief.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
We need, as a nation, to start a serious conversation about gun violence with falling back on prying guns out of cold, dead hands. What the second amendment meant to the Founders and what it means now. How can we deal with this epidemic of senseless slaughter.

Stop. Think. Pray if it works for you but we need to DO SOMETHING.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 8 years ago
One more thing on religion. I am hoping against my beliefs that there is a hell.
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Posted by NikiLynn (+23) 8 years ago
Wow is all I have to say about how thins thread is going....a horrible thing happened today and all you people can do is turn things and make it about you and what you believe...this thread started out as a nice gesture of what happened today and all you people can do is cut it down because they want to pray for these victims and their families...

For once I do agree with Amorrette...We do need to do something with the way things are going...our country is in sad sad shape right now and in my honest opinion it is going to only get worse....

It makes me sick to listen to you guys sometimes, all you do is put people down, this is a free country (at least for now) and everyone has the right to their own opinions and can voice them in their own way. I have known some of you since I was a child and to tell you the truth I have lost a lot of respect for you by reading your posts and how you treat other people. I think you are the ones who should be praying and asking for forgiveness....
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Posted by cowdog (+132) 8 years ago
I agree with Nikki Lynn. To undermine a genuine feeling of concern for the victims and families by invoking any medium, while at the same time ranting a diatribe that tries to impress others of your sophistication, intelligence ( or lack of it), is vulgar, selfish and sickening. I hope the old saying of what goes around , comes around.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Saying "don't politicize the shootings"... is politicizing the shootings, because it reinforces the status quo regarding our attitudes towards guns and violence. "don't politicize the shootings, we'll talk about it tomorrow, or maybe the next day, or maybe... never"
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Posted by Jess13 (+78) 8 years ago
I completely agree. Why can't everyone just agree that this is a tragedy and that we are all here to support those who are directly affected by this event. Stop bickering about who believes in what and gun control. Isn't there ever going to be a time when we as humans can pull together as one during a suffering time such as this?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
nobody's saying it's not a tragedy. nobody's saying they don't want to support the victims.

Some people are asking why this keeps happening, and others are saying they no longer feel comforted by the same old metaphysical platitudes.

It's impossible to "pull together", because without a determination of what we're "pulling together" on, we're really pulling together over nothing.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (12/14/2012)]
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Posted by neonfreedom (+290) 8 years ago
nobody's saying they don't want to support the victims.




Subject: RE: Connecticut shootings
Author: Jimmie Posted: 12/14/2012 1:56:02 PM From: [United States] - MT
Why would praying to someone who didn't prevent the trajedy in the first place do any good?



??????
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
I too am concerned for the victims of this tragedy. My heart is broken for them with which they must now deal. I personally don't see how "prayer" for them is going to change anything, but that is just my thought. If it helps others, great.

Here is a better plan to protect our kids: make the sale of bullets for handguns and assault weapons very difficult to obtain. Help kids and adults deal with the physiological issues that lead to violent behavior as a preventive strategy. Diagnose kids with dyslexia and other phonemic awareness issue and help them to learn to read and comprehend information. Deal with institutions and groups, like say christianity, that repress genuine learning and promote control of "the flock" through fear, guilt, and intimidation. These are practical steps that will go a long way to preventing these kinds of tragedies.

Amorette is right, we need desperately to DO something.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Jimmie raises a fine question. do you have an answer for him?
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Posted by jerry erlenbusch (-145) 8 years ago
AMEN Niki Lynn
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 8 years ago
I've read threads about this on several message boards now, and none of them have been as worthless as this one. Bookmark deleted. Goodbye.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Sorry people's reactions weren't up to the level of discourse you'd prefer levi. People suck that way.
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Posted by momofthree (+318) 8 years ago
May we take the time to pray for all the families involved in this horrific tragedy and put our NRA gun toting views aside for one small minute? Think people think!
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Posted by David Schott (+17053) 8 years ago
Levi Forman wrote:
"I've read threads about this on several message boards now, and none of them have been as worthless as this one. Bookmark deleted. Goodbye."

Nice of you to resist the temptation to raise the level of discourse with your parting shot.
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+763) 8 years ago
So I wonder how video game sales are tonight. There's some really cool ones that give you most points for how many people you shoot with machine guns.
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Posted by Sledge H. (+4) 8 years ago
I would welcome all teachers to have the right to carry a concealed gun in class to be able to defend the kids and each other.
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Posted by Jessica Culver (+75) 8 years ago
So I wonder how video game sales are tonight. There's some really cool ones that give you most points for how many people you shoot with machine guns.


You know, Jeff... I play those video games. Enjoy them greatly. Am totally, 100% against civilians owning guns. Video games can't be blamed for this tragedy. I'm sure there are a lot of factors - access to guns, access to mental health treatment, etc - that came into play, but I am fairly certain video game usage wasn't one of them.

It's terrible this happened; it's terrible that it will affect people for the rest of their lives. But this, like any tragedy, is something we'll pick up the pieces of, move on from, and will sadly likely be repeated, because we have a hard time learning from things like this.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 8 years ago
I would welcome all teachers to have the right to carry a concealed gun in class to be able to defend the kids and each other.
permalink



Why not arm the kids too?
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
That's always the answer. More weapons. More violence. Great.

We need to think about this without the knee-jerk more guns make life better NRA reaction and think about what can be done to stop this. Period.

It may involve gun control.

It may involve education.

It may involve spending more money to aid those with mental problems.

It will not involve shooting more people if at all possible.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Idiots. MOAR GUNS AND JESUS FOR EVERYONE.
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Posted by Sledge H. (+4) 8 years ago
Even killing the murder before they kill more kids,amorette?
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Posted by Wayne White (+255) 8 years ago
Yeah, lets catch the kids in a crossfire, more guns, more guns. I believe it is our right to own guns, but I am starting to wonder.
I went through Columbine and I still remember the looks on all the parents faces as they were looking for there children.
I am not big on religion but my prayers are out for these families just the same there is a certain amount of personal religion in all of us.
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Posted by Wayne White (+255) 8 years ago
Yeah, lets catch the kids in a crossfire, more guns, more guns. I believe is is everyones right to own a gun, however this isnt working.
I went through Columbine and still remember the frantic looks on parents faces as they were hunting for there kids.
I am not big into religion, but there is a certain amount of religion in all of us.
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Posted by Wayne White (+255) 8 years ago
Guess it was worth repeating, sorry
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Posted by Sandy Kiltie-Losing (+258) 8 years ago
Deepest sympathy for the familes who are enduring a horrific loss, hopes for emotional healing for the children who survived the attack, the teachers and staff who proctected the children, the first responders who dealt with the aftermath of the insanity, and for the community which will be forever changed.

Perhaps this will help spur more support for School Funding, perhaps requiring and funding all schools to have secured entrances. There has to be a way to fund schools so that they can have as much security as apartment buildings and high end retail shops, as the schools hold the most precious treasure in the world.
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Posted by Sledge H. (+4) 8 years ago
It's called an 2nd chance option to protect people and you're self rather than watch helpless, wayne . And how do you know it's a cross fire, every situation is different. That's why instinctive training is important.
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Posted by Diane Emeney (+492) 8 years ago
Just a quick comment on the gun control issue...

Do you really believe that a person or persons bent on doing harm can't do it unless they have a gun? I'm pretty sure that there are other ways of doing harm. And how do you know he acquired his guns legally?

Other than that, my deepest sympathies go out to the people dealing personally with this tragedy and "pray" they will find the strength to get through it
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Posted by homesweet (+71) 8 years ago
If a "bad guy" wants a gun, he can get a gun, whether or not it is illegal to own them. By taking away the honest mans gun, you are only leaving him defensless.
Violent video games do impact a persons mind, I just heard about a new study on the radio the other day about people being more agressive after playing a violent video game. There have been many such studies done, you could look some of them up but by searching Google if you wanted to learn more. Maybe playing these types of games does not make you want to go out and shoot people, no one is saying it does that to everyone, or anyone, but they can/may increase some people's violent tendencies, make them have an unrealistic view of death (ie. its not permanent, not a big deal, etc, as it is in the games).
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Posted by Denyse (+20) 8 years ago
To all those involved in the shooting I am deeply saddened and my prayers go out to each and everyone of you. I cannot imagine losing a loved one to such violence. Hold your loved ones tight and cherish each moment you have with them because you never know when god will decide he needs them more as angles than we need them here on earth.
To all who are refusing to mourn and pray for those who are suffering such loss hope this photo shows up. Because shame on you.
If not it says:
Dear god why do you allow so much violence in our schools? signed, a concerned student. Dear concerned student, I am not allowed in schools. God
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/[email protected]/8274357290/in/photostream/

[This message has been edited by Denyse (12/14/2012)]
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
Denyse, you sound just like this asshole that loves to immediately put out the blame on something....you both are full of it...

http://thinkprogress.org/...?mobile=nc
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 8 years ago
My heart goes out to the families affected by this tragedy. Let's allow them to mourn.
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Posted by pc (+123) 8 years ago
"We need, as a nation, to start a serious conversation about gun violence with falling back on prying guns out of cold, dead hands. What the second amendment meant to the Founders and what it means now. How can we deal with this epidemic of senseless slaughter."



What, specifically, are you suggesting is the solution, Amorette?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
To all who are refusing to mourn and pray for those who are suffering such loss hope this photo shows up. Because shame on you.


One can definitely "mourn" without "praying". No one posting here is refusing to mourn. And we all would gladly pray if we thought it would actually accomplish something.
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+763) 8 years ago
You can't expect or force people to mourn and pray as per your own style.
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Posted by SZ (+144) 8 years ago
As our nation mourns collectively, each of the parents and family members who lost loved ones Friday face a different level of individual sorrow. They deserve our respect. And they also deserve not to have their pain used as political equity.

Before we jump to conclusions and make this a debate about the second amendment, it appears that the shooter, Adam Lanza borrowed his mother's guns for his heinous acts of murder. The guns were purchased legally.

Make no mistake about it we have to do everything in our power to prevent a tragedy like this one from occurring again. Over the next few weeks we will learn about Lanza and whether he had any mental health issues that went ignored.

You will hear people mistakenly argue that no matter how big of a monster Lanza was, the *real* villains who entered Sandy Hook Friday morning were the guns in his hand.

Are we sure the absence of guns would have definitively prevented Lanza from killing? It didn't prevent Zheng Minsheng from walking into a classroom with a knife in Fugian Province on China's East Coast in 2010 and stabbing eight children to death. I am sure the parents of those eight children feel the same unimaginable pain that the parents in Connecticut feel today.

Killers find a way to kill.

Ultimately, what has me fuming as a parent is the fact that a person was able to enter a public school with a weapon, any weapon. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by Friday's tragedy.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
I don't have an easy answer. I don't think there is one. But we need to talk about it. What if the teachers had been armed? Do you want your children attending a school where a loaded gun is easily accessible to small children? What guarantee is there the teachers would be able to defend the children and not cause more collateral damage? Do you remember a shooting in New York this past summer where the cops shot more innocent bystanders than did the suspicious man with a gun?

We need to talk about this without limiting any possible solution. Because there are too many innocents dying to not face up to the fact that this country has a serious problem.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3243) 8 years ago
A friend put this on FB this morning and it certainly is "food for thought". Andy Borowitz said, "Politicians: If, as you say, this is about mental health and not guns, why are you cutting funds for mental health"?
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Posted by K.Duffy (+1807) 8 years ago
I don't have an easy, 1 step answer either.. but I do have a thought or two that will be as unpopular with most previous posters!

This morning, in addition to the revelation the guns were owned by his now deceased mother *an AVID gun collector* ~ it was also disclosed she had expressed to at least one friend having serious concerns over her son's mental health, and went to great lengths to protect him.

In how many of these tragedies, did the shooter show earlier signs of disturbed behavior? No intervention takes place, because we can't trample on someones rights. Don't know exactly what to DO there, we sure can't lock up every loon but if common sense were to suddenly take a grip on the nation...
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Posted by tom regan (+2522) 8 years ago
This is a public health issue. This needs to be treated like any other public health problem that has been tackled over the last 20yrs. Everyone knows to get their flu shot. Why its important to get your children vaccinated. Most everyone knows how to prevent the spread of HIV. Why smoking is bad for your health. Remember the meth adds? A major public health campaign to expose the mental health crisis in this nation is the only thing that will make people aware of this issue. What signs to look for and what to do if you think someone might be a few bulbs short of a full string.

Unfortunately, funding for public health is definitely not a priority. "Personal responsibility" am I right!
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Posted by Matt - Schmitz (+167) 8 years ago
Good post SZ, until the last paragraph. It appears that the young man that unleashed his horror on this school shot his way into the school. There will never be enough security to prevent that sort of thing. This particular school recently updated and upgraded the protocols for getting into the school during school hours. They made every effort to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening in their school. There are times when even the biggest and baddest security measures will not work. Unfortunately, yesterday appears to be one those times.
I too have no answers. But Amorette is correct. We must have the conversation. We didn't after Columbine, and we didn't after the school shooting in Kentucky. And on and on. I'm not sure if that conversation could have prevented yesterdays tragedy, but skipping that conversation because it's difficult certainly doesn't make anybody any safer.
Can schools all over this country afford to hire armed guards? Not likely. This particular school appears to have 4 "wings". To be fully protected, an armed guard would have to be stationed in each wing. How many schools have the resources to cover that many entrances? And I am sure that many schools have many more areas where unauthorized entry could be a concern. As we saw yesterday, just locking the doors doesn't appear to be enough. Maybe training a few teachers in each school to be proficient in gun use needs to be part of that conversation. But then again, do we want to put that kind of pressure and responsibility on teachers? We learned yesterday that many teachers will do whatever it takes to protect their students. While throwing themselves in front of a shooter is noble beyond belief, could they have prevented at least a few of these deaths had they been armed? Maybe an madman will think twice before entering a school with weapons if he knows that there will be armed resistance? Will he just find an easier target? Just too many questions, and many of those questions have no answer. But clearly something must be done.
We can't keep calling ourselves a civilized society if we refuse to address these issues. If it can happen in a community like Newtown Connecticut, it is certainly possible that it could happen in Miles City, or Forsyth, or any small community in Montana. I wish I had the answers, but I am just as heartbroken and confused today as the rest of the country appears to be.
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Posted by JKNM (+20) 8 years ago
A friend of mine brought this to my attention, on how well the Amish community handled the tragic shooting of their young innocent children. It was amazing watching how far differently they reacted to the tragedy. We watched them reach out to heal others and in doing so it seem to have help their own healing progress. Even though it was just as tough for them, they didn't seem to push blame on anyone other then the one involved. There was no bashing of these outsiders who have destroyed their life, that its guns that did this, or even hinted to make us feel our society was to blame. Some times people do very bad things. I will leave it at that.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 8 years ago
I wash my hands of this entire thread. Give these people some time to mourn their losses before using their tragedy for political fodder.
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 8 years ago
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I read the following this morning and as a person with mental illness, I felt it was very powerful.

By Liza Long


I Am Adam Lanza's Mother

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan -- they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

"You know where we are going," I replied.

"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork -- "Were there any difficulties with. at what age did your child. were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have."

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying -- that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys-and their mothers-need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise -- in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill -- Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

(Originally published at The Anarchist Soccer Mom.)
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Posted by K.Duffy (+1807) 8 years ago
Thanks for that post, Kelly. Gun control and more security aren't the answers to keep this from happening again..and again.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
Have been saying all along it is investing more money and efforts into mental health that is the answer...so many homeless whereever you go shows how our country has failed our citizens with mental health issues...most of them, according to statistics, are vets...so sad...if we make mental health facilities easy to enter and easy to pay for, you can easily cut down so much on violent behavior IMO as so many health care professionals would be able to get their patients the help they need....it would be a win win situation...
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Posted by Don Birkholz (+1293) 8 years ago
Haven't heard anything about the nr injured of if there are no injured. Sounds like "he" was determined to not leave anyone injured, if in fact they are all dead and none injured. Strange to have many dead and none injured.
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Posted by Mufasa (+92) 8 years ago
Westboro Baptist Church is going to picket the vigils/services. Let 'em know what you think.

1. Westboro Baptist Church
2. 3701 SW 12th St
3. Topeka, KS 66604
4.
5. (785) 273-0325
6.
7. Fred W. and Margie M. Phelps, Sr.
8. Westboro Baptist Church
9. 3701 S.W. 12th Street
10. Topeka, Kansas 66604
11. phone: 785-273-0325 and 785-273-0338
12. fax: 785-273-9228
13.
14. Fred W. Phelps. Jr. and Betty Phelps
15. 3600 S. W. Holly Lane
16. Topeka, Kansas 66604
17. home: 785-272-4135
18. Jr.'s work: 785-296-3195
19.
20. Margie J. Phelps
21. 3734 S.W. 12th
22. Topeka, Kansas 66604
23. home: 785-273-7380
24. work: 785-296-3317
25.
26. Ben Phelps
27. 3632 S.W. Churchill
28. Topeka, Kansas 66604
29. home: 785-233-4162
30.
31. Rebekah Phelps-Davis and Chris Davis-Phelps
32. 1216 S.W. Cambridge
33. Topeka, Kansas 66604
34. home: 785-272-7741
35.
36. Shirley Phelps-Roper and Brent Roper-Phelps
37. Sam Phelps-Roper
38. 3640 S.W. Churchilll
39. Topeka, Kansas 66604
40. home: 785-273-1445/273-0277/272-1619
41. Shirley's work: 785-233-4162
42. Brent's work (Foot Locker) 785-273-0068
43.
44. Jonathan and Paulette Phelps
45. 840 S.W. Watson
46. Topeka, Kansas 66606
47. Jonathan's work: 785-233-4162
48. Elizabeth Phelps
49. 2001 S.W. 2nd Street
50. Topeka, Kansas 66606
51. home: 785-234-9694
52. work: 785-233-0822
53.
54. Abigail Phelps
55. 3636 S.W. Churchill
56. Topeka, Kansas 66604
57. 785-273-7262
58. work: 785-296-7709
59.
60. Charles W. and Mary Hockenbarger
61. 711 N.W. Page
62. Topeka, Kansas 66617
63. home: 785- 246-1567
64.
65. Rachel Phelps Hockenbarger and Charles F. Hockenbarger
66. 1284 S.W. Hillsdale
67. Topeka, Kansas 66604
68. home: 785-271-1619
69.
70. Tim and LeAnn Phelps
71. 3743 S.W. 12th Street
72. Topeka, Kansas 66604
73. home: 785-273-4780
74. Tim's work: 785-291-5100
75. Leann's work: phone: 785-233-4162
76.
77. Theresa Davis
78. 3632 S.W. 12th Street
79. Topeka, Kansas 66604
80. work: 785-291-700
81.
82.
83.
84. Credit @Infamous_Anon
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+763) 8 years ago
Motorcycle clubs are organizing a standoff with the Westboro assholes.
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Posted by Matt - Schmitz (+167) 8 years ago
That will not end well for the Westboro heathens. I'd actually like to watch that encounter.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Why does anyone think asking them (politely or otherwise) is going to change the Westboro money racket from assaulting these funerals? There's money to be made, and donations from other asshole-americans to cash, so there's no such thing as "bad publicity" for this group.

They don't care, it puts their name out as fighting the good fight against... something, and it brings in enough donations to keep Fred Phelps in the manner to which he's been accustom.

Now... if he had to pay TAXES on all that lucre....
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
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Posted by K.Duffy (+1807) 8 years ago
Thank-you Richard.

I just heard a blurb on the radio about Mike Huckabee's broadcast, so I had to look it up..Yep..he's blaming the lack of prayer in schools...

http://www.huffingtonpost...15340.html
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Posted by neonfreedom (+290) 8 years ago
Prayers to the families,as a mother myself I can not even fathom what these parents and families are going through..I hope I don't ever have to.hold your loved ones tight and don't be afraid or ashamed to tell them how u feel or say I love u....
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3243) 8 years ago
I wonder why someone would feel that it is the lack or prayer in school? I attended school in the 40's and 50's and we did not even have "Under God" in the pledge those years. I do not recall mass murders in any school...and, really, it has not helped to prevent attacks on Churches. There have been plenty of those as well as other crimes. I do not have the answer but don't think that is the answer either:-) Just very sad for all of them.
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Posted by ike eichler (+1226) 8 years ago
IMHO We as a country have more sociological issues than gun issues. The first "knee Jerk" reaction generally places the blame on a source rather than the cause.
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Posted by Matt - Schmitz (+167) 8 years ago
In Huckabee's opinion, if you get a blister, it's because you didn't pray enough. His is an extremely limited view of the world, and what happens in it. The best course of action when it comes to Huckabee is to just ignore the man. Maybe if we all pray enough, he will just shut up and go away.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Well, God IS sort of like a vampire, who can only enter once He's been invited.

Unless you're a Calvanist of course - in which case, God's pretty much just an all-around dick, and you should be too, because, well - why not?
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
I still believe if this country would restore the funding for mental health issues both in hospital care as well as medicines and counseling, it would go a long way to help this issue as well as many others...There are families out there right now that are literally afraid of their own children and have little recourse...sad...
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17321) 8 years ago
Exactly, howdy.

The issue of dealing with mental illnesses is the crisis that needs to be addressed. Our society safety net fails this in so many ways.

President Obama's speech last night was fantastic. We need to start the conversation. Unfortunately, too many people thought that meant a discussion solely on gun control.

Like most complex issues, there isn't a silver bullet. Think of the "fiscal cliff" invented crisis going on now. The solution to it, as well as preventing future mass killings in America, is a combination of compromises on all parties, and a little bit of this and that. Not fanatical knee-jerk reactions.
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Posted by Chuck Schott (+1284) 8 years ago
What a horrendous tragedy made even more so by the age of the victims and the loss of so many heroic educators. Would the carnage have been lessened by gun control of some sort? Maybe to some extent but maybe not. Remember the assault rifle never left his vehicle and changing clips is not all that time consuming when you are shooting fish in a barrel. Should the killers mental health been addressed prior to acting out? Clearly that would have been a benefit but perhaps not have made enough difference to stop him before he acted. Would an armed teacher or two stopped or lessoned the event? Maybe, maybe not. Where the answer lies is for us to argue and fight about until the next person already planning to one up this tragedy acts.

I am fairly sure where the problem starts, and where it would be most likely first notice is in the home by the parent or parents in the lucky cases. So finger pointers, gun control nuts, and gun nuts, remember society first defense is you, raise your children well.


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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
Raise your children right, and teach them to run to the lightshooter: http://www.thedailybeast....sacre.html
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Posted by Elizabeth Emilsson (+797) 8 years ago
Years ago, a family northeast of Jordan perished in a fire. The family had such a hard struggle during the drought years. There were two older children who had moved away. The three younger children who died in the fire, Joe, Richie and Patty, were wondeful, bright and full of fun and life. I tutored Richie and Patty at Kessler, a little country school with only four students. The teacher called me to tell me of the fire said, "You don't need to come here any more." It blew my mind with shock and grief. My heart truly ached for those children and the pain wouldn't go away.. Their little school mate had to finish the year by her self.

Later in the spring, her mother called and asked me to drive out and visit the school and talk to her daughter. The little girl told me how she could not enjoy any thing like going to the basket ball games and track meets, because she knew how Joe and Richie and Patty enjoyed those things. Then one day she looked out the schhoolwindow and she saw the three children out on the play ground, playing on the swings and the slide. They were running and laughing like little kids. She ran to the door to go out to join them and they turned and smiled and waved to her and disappeared.
She said " I think my mother thinks I'm crazy" but it made me happy to happy to see them so happy and that where they were was a happy place." I told her. "You're not crazy. God gave you a gift of comfort" Whether she actually saw them or hallucinated didn't really matter. She was comforted and so was I. I cried all the way back to Miles City but the deep ache in my chest was lifted.

May the parents and little friends of the children lost in Sandy Hook find a relief from the pain they are experiencing. That's what I am praying for.

[This message has been edited by Elizabeth Emilsson (12/20/2012)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
Depending on who you listen to, the shootings were caused by:

1) Not enough deference paid by women and minorities to white males. (You know, we second class folks should know our place.)

2) Not enough men at the grade school to attack the shooter. (This ignores the men who were shot by Jared Loughner and the men in the movie theatre watching Batman.)

3) God. He wanted revenge for being kicked out of public schools. (Personally, I would not worship a god who murdered small children for revenge.)

4) Women using birth control. (See #1. Where do women get off thinking they have should be allowed some control over their own bodies.)



I am truly sick of political hacks making hay off tragedy.
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Posted by Bob L. (+5094) 8 years ago
Amorette:

You forgot about the homos.

It was their fault, dontchaknow...
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Posted by SeptyTwo (+674) 8 years ago
We have firearms in our house, used for fun at the range. We also play video games, watch certain tv shows, yet we don't get that urge to go get a real firearm from the closet, go get some ammo from the store, and just start "playing" around.

If the shooter didn't have access to firearms, yet wanted really bad to kill people, he would finds other means to do so. Kids in a school in China were killed this same week by a man using a KNIFE! Sure if he had access to guns, he most likely would have shot them, but he didn't, so he found another way.

Mental Health should be in the fore front of the discussions concerning the acts of violence. If an unstable man or woman, "snaps" and didn't have a gun to shoot people walking around, he or she may use the alternative "weapon" and hop in their car and just start driving on the crowded sidewalks.

A LOT of people in this town having a Concealed Carry Licence, more than you would think, these people are carrying a gun somewhere on their person, but you wouldn't know it. Concealed is concealed. People carry and own firearms for a variety of reasons. Mostly for people that have a CCW, that is for the protection of them and theirs.

With that said, how come there isn't more firearm related violence in this town?

Just my two cents, minus some copper

[This message has been edited by SeptyTwo (12/20/2012)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 8 years ago
Kids were killed in the knife attack in China?
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Posted by Bob L. (+5094) 8 years ago
Hey Septy:

I propose a duel.

You can have as many knives as you want.

I'll take one loaded, semi-automatic rifle.

We'll start 20 paces apart.

I think I likes my chances...
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Posted by Matt - Schmitz (+167) 8 years ago
The kids in China were not killed. He certainly tried, but they all survived. Still a tragedy of course, but it does illustrate that guns are a more effective killing tool in the wrong hands.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 8 years ago
I didn't think so. I saw this same argument on Facebook....comparing these attacks to the Chinese attacks. Someone pointed out that of the 23 people injured, no one died. A person argued that wasn't the point. The point is that attacks occurred using something other than a gun. I think there are probably 26 families who care very much about that distinction.

I see people outraged at victims of gun-related violence advocating gun control. I think we need to remember that everyone has the right to their own opinion, and belittling each other accomplishes nothing.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 8 years ago
I'm going to disagree with Denise here a little bit - I want the macho gun culture to DIE in America (someone somewhere described it as "hick fascism", and I think that's about right), and if the quickest means to get there is through social ostracization and public ridicule, then so be it.

I'm tired of poorly argued rants and masturbatory Dirty Harry fantasies where you get to whip your giant black penis gun out and show everybody how a real hero does it.

The arms industry in the US feasts on paranoia, telling you that your neighbors are probably going to kill you if your government doesn't do it first, and that you NEED something that can put 30 bullets into the air before you reload, blah blah blah.

Yeah, I realize it's a problem with mental health care in the US (too expensive!!! Socialism!!!) and we probably should quit playing Grand Theft Auto because it's kind of a sick game, but here's the thing - the more pools you have in a neighborhood, the more likely someone is to drown, and the same thing goes for guns, even legal ones - the more there are, the greater the chance of someone ending up dead.

You need a gun to hunt? Great, I think that's a wonderful thing to do. You need a concealed carry permit because you don't feel safe at the mall anymore? Then please stay home, because you scare me.

There's no way for the government to take away all of the guns (nor should it), but if we make it more socially acceptable to tell people you spent five hours downloading pregnant midget porn on the internet then shooting holes in paper silhouettes of ATF agents, then we will be far better off as a society.
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Posted by Forsyth Mike (+475) 8 years ago
On the prayer (does it work or not?) debate, I like this bit from the movie "Oh God," which I think has a lot of truth in it.

JERRY: If you're God, how can you permit all the suffering that goes on in the world?

GOD: How can I permit the suffering? I don't permit the suffering...you do. I gave you a world and everything in it. Free will! You can love each other, you can cherish and nurture each other, or you can kill each other. Don't look to me to solve your problems for you.


And this:

JERRY: People are always praying to you. Do you listen?
GOD: I can't help hearing. I don't always listen.
JERRRY: So then you don't care.
GOD: Of course I care! But what can I do?
JERRY: What can you do?! You're God!
GOD: Only for the big picture. I don't get into details.


[This message has been edited by Forsyth Mike (12/20/2012)]
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Posted by Matt - Schmitz (+167) 8 years ago
Pretty much on the mark Bridger. These morans that tell me the antidote to gun violence in this country, is more guns, can eat a big one. I'm a fan of guns. I have a rifle within 5 ft of where I sit right now. And 2 more guns in my truck. (It's still bird season) I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment. But there is no reason Joe Citizen needs a military style assault rifle, and a 30 rd magazine for that weapon. Nobody is suggesting that my guns, or any guns like them, are going away. But an assault weapon ban in this country is way overdue. Sure it's fun to cut down a tree in 6 seconds by pulling the trigger once. I've done it, and it was great fun. But an axe or saw would do the same trick, with the added benefit of exercise. I'm a hunter, and I am shocked that the vast majority of hunters would oppose banning these types of weapons. They serve no legitimate hunting purpose. I hope that everybody that has rushed into their local gun store to purchase one of these weapons in the last 6 days is cataloged in a data base somewhere. Those are the people that scare me. It is all about gun control. Control your guns! If this shooters mother had exercised prudent control over her guns, she and 26 other people would likely be alive today. 20 of them beautiful innocent little children. I want just one of these "more guns" morans to walk into one of those 20 houses in Connecticut and look those parents in the eye, and tell em we need more assault rifles in the hands of everyday citizens. What is the percentage of citizens in this country that have mental issues? Is it 5 percent? 10 percent? I don't know. Just for conversation, let's put the number at 5 percent. Rumor has it that there is currently over 15 million of these assault rifles already on the street. That means that there is probably 750,000 people (your neighbor?) that have mental issues and already own one of these weapons. It may be more. Sleep well with that little nugget of info floating around in your head.

[This message has been edited by Matt - Schmitz (12/20/2012)]

[This message has been edited by Matt - Schmitz (12/20/2012)]
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Posted by SeptyTwo (+674) 8 years ago
Bob L

Maybe i didnt come across my thoughts good enough but basically yeah... i agree with you and would take a gun over a knife anyday also... my post's final lines were supposed to be more sarcastic lol
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
We accept restrictions on free speech. Why can't we accept restrictions on gun ownership?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 8 years ago
You can't buy a procreateing cold and sinus pill without signing your life away. I don't see why gun ownership should be any less restrictive.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
Perhaps we are going backwards cause our 5th amendment rights are almost gone and we can be locked away for no good reason, and we can buy guns relatively easily, but you cannot buy a cold and sinus pill without great restriction...but giant corporations can raid union pension funds and give "golden Parachutes retirement plans" to their management and millions in bonuses to their CEOs but the poor union fellow that paid like 3 bucks a hour for many years into that fund goes without...and it is all legal??? I don't get it...we are headed rapidly back toward the "robber baron" days of old that brought about the birth of unions...Crazy to me IMO...I don't see why we cannot at least ban assault rifles and large clips that hold lots of bullets...that would be a good start and show good faith .....
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
We have been back in the robber baron days for quite some time. Ask Mitt Romney.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
Very true Amorette, sad but true...bet our ancestors are spinning in their graves after the sacrifice they went thru for the FDR good social help like SS, unions, etc...Well unions came before ss but still all of our ancestors would be spinning IMO...
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Posted by K.Duffy (+1807) 8 years ago
True Dat, howdy..

Didn't you love the NRA's belated press conference? "..the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.." or something close to that.

He didn't mention the armed guards on duty at Virginia Tech. Weren't there some at Columbine as well?
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
They didn't mention what it would cost to put an armed police officer in every school. Miles City refused to pay for one school resource officer even when that program was proved effective. Can you see every town in American coughing up for armed guards during the current economy when there is no evidence they would actually help and might cause more collateral damage? Remember the cops in New York this spring, shooting innocent bystanders left and right.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 8 years ago
Not to mention the "armed everybody at Ft Hood" and all trained shootists with the army...did no good whatsoever...
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Posted by Elizabeth Emilsson (+797) 8 years ago
It makes me want to cry.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 8 years ago
December 26, 1912

If you are packing a cannon around on your hip be careful, for you may be pinched for "carrying weapons in an incorporated city." Dan Sims lugged around a double action revolver with him and the city sleuths pinched him.


So much for the "Code of the West" being all about everyone being armed.

[This message has been edited by Amorette Allison (12/23/2012)]
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