Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
A friend of mine was arrested this weekend for providing her teenage children with alcohol at their house. It was a safe situation and all the kids were staying the night, so they wouldn't be driving. I guess I don't understand what is wrong with it...why can't my friend parent the way she wants to?
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
I guess it all depends on the teenagers' ages and whether or not they had friends over. They must have been unruly because the police don't go door to door trying to find underage drinkers...
This is the actual Montana state law..

16-6-305. Age limit for sale or provision of alcoholic beverages -- liability of provider.
(1) (a) Except in the case of an alcoholic beverage provided in a nonintoxicating quantity to a person under 21 years of age by his parent or guardian, physician or dentist for medicinal purposes, a licensed pharmacist upon the prescription of a physician, or an ordained minister or priest in connection with a religious observance, a person may not sell or otherwise provide an alcoholic beverage to a person under 21 years of age.

(b) A parent, guardian, or other person may not knowingly sell or otherwise provide an alcoholic beverage in an intoxicating quantity to a person under 21 years of age.

(c) For the purposes of this section, "intoxicating quantity" means a quantity of an alcoholic beverage that is sufficient to produce:

(i) a blood, breath, or urine alcohol concentration in excess of 0.05; or

(ii) substantial or visible mental or physical impairment.

(2) Any person is guilty of a misdemeanor who:

(a) invites a person under the age of 21 years into a public place where an alcoholic beverage is sold and treats, gives, or purchases an alcoholic beverage for the person;

(b) permits the person in a public place where an alcoholic beverage is sold to treat, give, or purchase alcoholic beverages for him; or

(c) holds out the person to be 21 years of age or older to the owner of the establishment or his or her employee or employees.

(3) It is unlawful for any person to fraudulently misrepresent his or her age to any dispenser of alcoholic beverages or to falsely procure any identification card or to alter any of the statements contained in any identification card.

(4) A person 21 years of age or older who violates the provisions of subsection
(1)(b) is, in addition to applicable criminal penalties, subject to civil liability for damages resulting from a tortious act committed by the person to whom the intoxicating substance was sold or provided if the act is judicially determined to be the result of the intoxicated condition created by the violation. (See compiler's comments for contingent termination of certain text.)

History: (1)En. Sec. 56, Ch. 105, L. 1933; re-en. Sec. 2815.115, R.C.M. 1935; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 240, L. 1971; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 94, L. 1973; Sec. 4-161, R.C.M. 1947; amd. and redes. by Sec. 24, Ch. 387, L. 1975; Sec. , R.C.M. 1947; (2)En. Sec. 38, Ch. 84, L. 1937; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 226, L. 1947; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 161, L. 1951; amd. Sec. 5, Ch. 240, L. 1971; amd. Sec. 6, Ch. 94, L. 1973; Sec. 4-439, R.C.M. 1947; amd. and redes. by Sec. 104, Ch. 387, L. 1975; Sec. , R.C.M. 1947; R.C.M. 1947, , (part); amd. Sec. 1, Ref. 74, app. Nov. 7, 1978; (3)En. Sec. 1, Ch. 26, L. 1979; amd. Sec. 4, Ch. 186, L. 1979; amd. Sec. 35, Ch. 68, L. 1987; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 217, L. 1987; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 448, L. 1989.

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
Are you a lawyer, chipmunk ninja?
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Posted by Kacey (+3161) 15 years ago
"A friend of mine was arrested this weekend for providing her teenage children with alcohol at their house. It was a safe situation and all the kids were staying the night, so they wouldn't be driving."
If they were her children and they were teenagers they most likely lived there. So who are you talking about when you say "all the kids were staying the night"? Were there friends of her children there also? How old were they? Eighteen or thirteen? I'm guessing that other parents heard of it and were not happy. As for it being safe, it's never safe to give alcohol to teenagers. I would wonder why the parent couldn't find something better to do with her kids! She knew it was illegal and yet still did it. Maybe her kids will see by what happened that there are consequences to your actions.
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
No, I'm not a lawyer, I just know where to get my information.

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1340) 15 years ago
I had lots of friends in highschool but only one of them had a set of parents that felt this way. It didn't fly till we we're seniors but if we were at his house no one drove home drunk. All the other nights when we weren't at their house we were out at 12 mile or wherever drinking/driving/4 wheeling/shooting guns and having a good ole time.

The only nights no one got hurt, a DUI or an MIP were the nights at that friends house.

Food for thought. Teenagers are going to do it anyway, despite what you say. Sounds like these parents were trying to control the one thing they could; the environment the drinking is being done in.
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Posted by poisonspaghetti (+282) 15 years ago
Wait a second...you can't just plop a statute up there and think you've got the entire picture of the law. Case law interprets how the statutes will be applied, so don't rely on Milescity.com to get your legal advice.
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
Right on, poisonspaghetti. I don't think I'll get my legal advice from chipmunk ninja, either!!!!
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Posted by mom (+73) 15 years ago
Just Food for thought: Mr. Dyba, did your parents supply a safe place to drink? Will you supply alcohol for any one of your youngsters when the reach the age where they will want to drink?
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
First of all, poisonspaghetti, you're dumb. Regardless of case law, it is the entire law, I put the entire thing up there so they could see what part or the law they were breaking or if it even applied, which it sounds like it does (they don't arrest people based on case law!)

You need to get a jar, so maybe the next time you're thinking about opening your mouth you can put your two cents in there.

Secondly, this thread just supports my comments about parents welcoming their children's underage drinking. Whether or not they were promoting "responsible" drinking, they still could have given them something better to do. There are laws against underage drinking for a reason just like there are laws against murder. "My friend got arrested because she let her children murder one of their friends; she said she let them because it was a safe situation, (they had already tied him up)."

(police): "Why didn't you give them something else to do?"

"Oh, because I let my kids walk all over me and let them do pretty much anything they want to."

Hey! Bucking Horse is coming up; let's let them have bracelets so they can all drink with us!! Everyone's going to be there so it's got to be safe!!!"

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
I can't wait to raise a little alcoholic of my own!

I think I might start by spiking his bottle. Get him going early so when it comes time for high school, he won't be made fun of for not being able to hold his liquor. The general feeling when I was in high school, was that inability or refusal to drink at a party weighed more heavily on your social status than academic achievements.

Somewhat off the subject, yet still relevant, I read previously in another post, something suggesting that there are plenty of things for kids to do in Miles City that don't involve drinking. Something along the lines of access to walking trails along the river and what not. The first thing I thought was, "Yeah, I can't wait to go for a walk along the river and see all the water, mud, and trees!"

Looking to the left and right of the trail as I walked, I spotted broken beer bottles, empty beer boxes, broken liquor bottles, and party garbage. Party garbage usually consists of all of the above including cigarette boxes, cups, and the occasional condom wrapper.

It felt good to get back to nature though, ya know? Just walking down the trails and listening to the cars and trains passing on the bridges. Checking out the latest graffiti and dodging my drunk friends as they go speeding down the dike. Having some good Christian fun! In fact, I was so pleased with myself, I celebrated with a bottle of Jack!

Now I just bring the Jack with me. As I walk around aimlessly by the river, I like to take a shot for every piece of garbage I see. I usually get pretty drunk within the first 50 yards. Then, when I've finished the entire bottle, I like to break it right there. I try to beat my mark each time I go on a nature walk because, as you know, it's important for people to have goals, as well as standards.

Jack.
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Posted by poisonspaghetti (+282) 15 years ago
Sorry readers, guess you can place all your confidence in the legal advice you're getting from chipmunk. In fact, he's quite an expert on everything...morality, the law, you name it, and he's got his finger on the pulse of Miles City. What can we expect next? Free directions for a do-it-yourself appendectomy? What did we ever do to deserve such a wise and learned blogger?
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
Poisonspaghetti, from what I've read here at www.milescity.com, I've come to the conclusion that Chipmunk Ninja is only voicing his opinion. I don't know what we've done to deserve his contribution, however I'm grateful for it. Whether you enjoy reading his posts or not, he's no more guilty of breaking the ethical barrier of forum participation than you are.

Without Chipmunk Ninja's (And others of his opinionated genre) clever, precise, and often antagonizing posts, this forum would only consist of people who agree with each other.

I appreciate Ninja's posts.

Jack.
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
I agree that Chipmunk Ninja is certainly entertaining. However, he attempts to go beyond entertainment by providing legal information mixed with advice. He is not and never will be a lawyer. I am quite concerned that those who read the forums will take this information and run with it, acting in a way that could result in trouble.

It is fantastic that Chipmunk Ninja takes it upon himself to attempt to be informed about Montana Law. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have a clear understanding about how the law works. Yes, arrests and prosecutions happen pursuant to statutes. But the Legislature is only one piece of the puzzle. The Judicial branch then interprets the statutes and ultimately determines the outcome of a case. Without this interpretation of a statute, it is impossible to make a proper legal examination or argument.

Chipmunk Ninja,
Ignorantia legis neminem excusat! By the way, if it turns out that I am wrong and you do actually understand the law, I'd love to discuss the ins and outs of Constitutional Criminal Procedure with you.
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
Again, poisonspaghetti, you're dumb.

I really don't have to say anything more than that because I'm pretty sure Jack H4X0R covered all the bases. But I will add one more thing.

You would have been that much closer to a new Porsche had you kept your mouth shut and instead threw your 2 cents into that jar!


Chipmunk Ninja

P.S. (Post Script)
Which would you like to know more about: an emergency, prophylactic, or an appendectomy done during pregnancy? Open or laparoscopic? They're both very common and pretty basic, although, patients undergoing the laparoscopic procedure usually have a quicker recovery time and are less susceptible to infection. Oh great, I'm going to have to clean my "Saw" room down stairs.
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
Wow, Chipmunk Ninja, is that a legal argument you are making? "You're dumb." Good one, good one!

[This message has been edited by Guy Hovis (edited 5/4/2007).]
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
To Guy,

In Criminal Law, although ignorance may not go to guilt, it can be a consideration in sentence, particularly where the law is unclear or the defendant sought advice from law enforcement or regulatory officials. Clearly to which they did not. Everyone knows that selling/providing alcohol to persons that are underage is illegal, even if they are your own children. It's no excuse.

Cute comment, (I wish they had an emotion for "blowing a kiss," I guess a will have to do...)

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
Chip,
Looks like someone learned to directly cut and paste from Wikipedia! Next time it would be nice if you would at least rephrase it. Seriously, I'd love to continue to chat about Criminal Law with someone that actually knows what they are talking about.
If only I could blow a kiss back at you!
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
By the way, you said that "Everyone knows that selling/providing alcohol to persons that are underage is illegal, even if they are your own children." Obviously you didn't read your statute very well. Remeber 16-6-305(1)(a)?
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
Guy,

And hats off to you for copying and pasting my comment into your Google toolbar. Bravo!! Just seeing if you were getting your information from the same place, "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat." Haha You should really get on there and look up "douche." Didn't surprise me when I saw your picture.

again, they wouldn't have been in the situation they are unless they violated the law... Meaning, they must have provided them with an entoxicating amount, could you at least comment on a little more than technicalities?

Chipmunk Ninja

[This message has been edited by Chipmunk Ninja (edited 5/5/2007).]
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Posted by Mr. Natural (+67) 15 years ago
Blowing Kisses? Wow, maybe Chipmunk and Guy should get a room. I think MSN provides rooms for a moderately low rate.
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
You're right Mr. Natural, but there's always that chance I could contract a virus from Guy... I don't want to have to log off and tell all the other accounts on my computer that I gave them E-Herpes...

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Mr. Natural (+67) 15 years ago
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
[This message has been edited by Guy Hovis (edited 5/5/2007).]
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
It's too bad you removed your post about how you fictionalized this forum to coerce me into commenting "like I knew everything.". Almost got away with it! You are undoubtedly a very lonely man.

Let us all give a big hearty round of applause to Mr. Hovis. You and your silly shenanigans! It's actually funny that you would resort to something so adolescent to substantiate your suggested superiority on the subject. Are you sure you aren't suffering from incompetency issues? An inferiority complex? What's next? Are you going to punch a baby to prove that you're stronger?

Ah, the search to satisfy ones' self-worth. I hope this was a boost to you confidence; you must have been too sore to jerk off.

I can't wait to read about you in the new addition of the "Darwin Awards."

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by MilesCity.com Webmaster (+10021) 15 years ago
Please, let's try to stick to the topic of discussion and leave the insults out. Thanks.

Regards, Larry
MilesCity.com Webmaster
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
...So in other words, Guy just got PWNED. Well done Ninja, good show.








Jack.
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
"He is not and never will be a lawyer. I am quite concerned that those who read the forums will take this information and run with it, acting in a way that could result in trouble."

How do you know whether or not Chipmunk aspires to practice law?

Why do you take it upon yourself to protect people ignorant enough to take serious legal advice from someone with the screen name "Chipmunk Ninja?"


"I am quite concerned that those who read the forums will take this information and run with it, acting in a way that could result in trouble."

Yes, and I am afraid that the sheer sound of an electric guitar will cause my future children to run with the devil. Do they sell "Mob Torches" at ACE?


I look forward to the day that bracelets sporting "WWCND" are available in every gas station. Lawl.

Jack.
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Posted by Dave Golterman (+244) 15 years ago
Places like the Rimrock Foundation in Billings love parents like the ones you mentioned. Over the coming years more than a few of them will be checking in for 28 day stays costing approximately $500/day and up. Others will get lucky and go to AA meetings where they only have to put a couple bucks in the basket. Some won't be so lucky and will end up drinking and driving and killing themselves or others.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

Dave
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1340) 15 years ago
"...So in other words, Guy just got PWNED. Well done Ninja, good show."

In other words, Chipmunk has a degree in Google and Guy is someone with a knowledge of the law much greater then his knowledge of how the typical message board operates.

Guy is right, in Law precedent is more important then the words on paper that define the law. That is why you always see such issues arise over the appointments of new Judges. Liberal judges will intepret the law one way while conservatives another. These judgements that they make can then be used in their region to win court cases further down the line.

When you see a legal missive from an attourneys office it will usually be laced with references to other cases showing the precedent of that case and how it supports their clients position.

Example: http://recordingindustryv...1295233654

After receiving this letter the RIAA dropped their case because of the sheer amount of precedent cited even though technically the law is written in support of their position.

As to the underage drinking, well I would say there is much precendent to support the position that you will go to jail for providing to minors however I think it is ignorant to assume that there are maliscious intentions behind a parent providing their child access to alcohol. It may not be the best idea but it is better then not caring at all.

Chipmunk, can you please tone the personal insults down a notch. I know that having better yahoo-fu then the rest of these posters might seem like lots of fun but it takes away from the good discussions that can take place on this forum.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4462) 15 years ago
I need to create 31 identities for myself, then I can have a cheering section like Chipmunk Ninja.
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
Dyba,

I'm confused, are you supporting underage drinking? Are you saying that the law should be changed to allow parents to provide their underage children with an intoxicating amount of alcohol?

"It may not be the best idea but it is better then not caring at all."

If they cared at all they would have explained to their children that alcohol has adverse effects on their bodies and minds greater to those that would occur at their legal drinking age. Also, they could have simply said that it's against the law for them to drink since they are underage. Parents aren't doing their children any service by letting them drink at home with them. Why have rules or laws at all if we ignore the boundaries?

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4462) 15 years ago
I didn't drink when I was underage either Chipmunk - it's sad that neither of us ever made any friends. We'll show them though, we'll live to be 100 and our records will be clean!
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
Buck,

I forgot that we were promoting the influences of peer pressure and popularity. Your feeble attempt at sarcasm makes me think of those cardboard children books that infants mostly chew on. "Aw," I thought, "that sure is cute."

Chipmunk Ninja
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Posted by Guy Hovis (+23) 15 years ago
Chipmunk Ninja isn't a very nice lady.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4462) 15 years ago
I don't need Guy's help. You've managed to overlook reality - peer pressure is real and the members of this board can attest to the fact that health lessons and well-intentioned lectures aren't too valuable in preventing underage drinking.

And frankly, I'm with Kacey - you're pi**ing contest are getting pretty tired and if I felt like it, I'd win all day.
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Posted by Chipmunk Ninja (+72) 15 years ago
Sounds like somebody's getting angry... (That often happens when you're wrong and don't like to admit it.)

I love it when people bring up "pissing contest" like they're being original with the phrase, its so cliché. Try to think of something that hasn't been said a billion times over. Some day you're just going to have to realize that you lead a futile existence, or maybe you already have and that's why you're promoting underage drinking so they can come to the same conclusion but sooner.

When you start to bring valid points to this argument, I'll give you your "Golden Shower."

Chipmunk Ninja

P.S. To Guy,

Quiet frankly you don't know whether I'm a man or a woman to be making a statement like that. I hope that wasn't an attempt to make a gender based joke towards me if you had the assumption that I am a man.
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admin
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Posted by MilesCity.com Webmaster (+10021) 15 years ago
Chipmunk Ninja:

Stop with the personal attacks, name callings, and insults.

It seems that you can express yourself quite well, so there is no need to resort to those tactics.

Regards, Larry
MilesCity.com Webmaster
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4462) 15 years ago
Told ya.

+9'6"

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (edited 5/6/2007).]
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1340) 15 years ago
I don't *support* underage drinking but I'm a big fan of facing reality.

Facts are facts. We can be the greatest parents in the world. We can monitor our kids TV habits, their internet usage and the friends they hang with but we still face a large percentage of their day being with other people outside our sphere of influence.

I'm a parent. My kids aren't at that age yet but I know I will have to cross that bridge and to be honest, I have no clue how I am going to handle it yet. We are going to try our hardest to give our children the greatest advantages possible to help them succeed through those years but we need to be prepared for all scenarios.

I will not lock my children in their room and not let them socialize in highschool. The day will most likely come where I will have to sit down and realistically make the decision about letting my children go out suspecting there will be drinking. I don't think I would be willing to completely ignore the possibility of having some control over the environment that drinking is being done in.

I look at the people who say "Our kids need something to do!!" The problem there is that kids are inherently stupid. My senior year the parents put a LOAD of time and effort into our Senior night. There were games and awesome prizes and food and drink and it was all FREE! WHEE. What a time to be had by all.

That still didn't change the fact that a majority of us got hammered before we went, snuck alcohol into the event, and some of us even left early to go to a party. It is in the nature of a lot of kids to just do dumb things. Despite how well we all were raised we still drank and had the fun we wanted to have.

Now I look at a large majority of these folks now and they are loving fathers and mothers. Husbands and wives. Strong contributors to the communities they live in.

It is just one of those subjects where there is a lot of subjective gray area and to definitively condemn someone for actions that you don't agree with is short-sighted. In my opinion.
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Posted by Jeremy Orthman (+436) 15 years ago
Josh,

I understand your position, but you don't have to lock them up. You give them the best information you can and let them make the right or wrong decisions.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3714) 15 years ago
^^ Right on. Pushing the boundaries and rules is the reason kids go out and drink. Removing those rules doesn't help the situation. You have to provide the moral compass for your kids. You know full well that they aren't going to adhere to it 100%, but you can at least show them that you have principles that you are willing to stick to. I am willing to bet that even though they are bound to rebel, they will respect you more for sticking up for what you and they know is the right thing than letting them do what they want even though both of you know that it's wrong.

Oh and I had a good time at the senior bash and didn't drink before or after

[This message has been edited by Levi Forman (edited 5/7/2007).]
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Posted by Kacey (+3161) 15 years ago
Kids learn from what they see their parents do way more than from what their parents say. If Mom and Dad or either one has a habit of drinking on a regular basis, kids grow up thinking that is normal and to be expected. We didn't keep liquor in the house, we didn't drink in my house, no one did. My kids grew up knowing by my actions that drinking was NOT acceptable behavior in our family. Kids who have parents who drink and think it's ok for their kids to drink are at a disadvantage. There are a couple of kids I know who watched their mom get drunk a lot and come home mean and angry. They learned from her behavior and never touched a drop of alcohol. But the point being, they learn from what they watch their parents do. Words go in one ear and out the other with kids. So parents, set an example for your kids.
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1340) 15 years ago
Just to clarify:
I am not going to be letting my children drink in my home nor will I be providing access to alcohol to them or their friends. There will be strict consequences for breaking my rules.

My entire underlying point is that condemning someone else for actions they take in an attempt to avoid their kids ending up in a wheelchair is a bit harsh.

The law will deal with it but from a community aspect I would hate to see someone ostracized over that kind of decision.
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Posted by Bob L. (+5096) 15 years ago
Kacey:

I completely agree with what you said.

However, I knew kids who completely melted down in college once they had freedom from their parents and access to alcohol/drugs.

Their parents were too restrictive and the kids didn't know how to handle the freedom.

I'm not blaming the parents, just saying there's a balance.
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Posted by Kacey (+3161) 15 years ago
Along with showing by example, kids need to have plenty of opportunity to make choices as they grow up. It starts with little things that don't matter, like what kind of ice cream they want. Then it goes to things like finding out if you eat too much desert you will get a tummy ache. Small object lesson, but a lesson that there are consequences to your actions. Parents who are overly controlling do their children a disservice. Growing up is about learning as you get older, having more responsibility to make decisions, and ultimately accountability for those actions. Kids need to be given the chance to experience those things or they may go wild when they "get free" from their parental controls. I personally know a lifelong friend who did that to her daughter. Her every movement was controlled. When the daughter turned 16 her mother then decided that she was going to drink anyway so started inviting friends of her daughter over for a "controlled" party with alcohol. The daughter ended up doing drugs, drinking and having two children by 20. Yet the mom still believes she did the right thing. It was her daughter who made the mistakes. Some days.....
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
"Why is intoxication our inspiration?"

"Apathy?"

"We're not asking for much, all we want is options."

"Give us a reason to stop hurting ourselves."

These among many other pieces of graffiti could be seen on the old hospital. Perhaps this was a way of the youth of Miles City voicing their opinion about this topic.



Jack.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3714) 15 years ago
Hmm, I guess I missed those hehe. All I noticed was "Miles Sh1tty" and some very poorly done nudes :-)
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Posted by Hal Neumann (+10257) 15 years ago
Does anyone have answers to the questions posed early on in this thread:

Was this adult providing alcohol to other people's children as well as their own?**
Why/how did law enforcement become involved/aware of the situation?


**If other children were involved, was it with their parent's permission?
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Posted by Jack H4X0R (+40) 15 years ago
"It's too bad you removed your post about how you fictionalized this forum to coerce me into commenting "like I knew everything.". Almost got away with it! You are undoubtedly a very lonely man."

-Chipmunk Ninja




This forum's initial post is irrelevant because it's not true. Apparently it was fabricated to get a rise out of Chipmunk Ninja.




Jack.
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