I'm angry. Angry at a system that has allowed us to go from the strongest proudest nation in the the world to a nation of wimps and cowards that is the laughingstock of the world.

Recently we had a shooting in one of our universities. It was allegedly perpetrated by someone who "had been bullied." who had "low self esteem."

No the attack was made by a whiny little puke who had probably never been spanked. Someone who had had it his way, and when he couldn't get it his way, got a gun. Basically, some crazy guy who should have been found out, and given help a long time ago.

But our health care system doesn't cover "mental health issues." You can get a sex change, an abortion, or even a face lift. But if you are insane, "Sorry, just go away. We don't want to help you. and if you can get help, don't do it here."

When the person does manage to get some help, the medications are so expensive that it would streach the budget of Bill Gates to pay for them. Never mind some poor insane person who because of his illness can't even get a job.

I'm angry that when someone attacks America we lower the flag as if to say, "Yes, you have cowed us. You have made us afraid. You set out to terrorize America into humble submission. You have succeeded."

Time to get tough! Time to stop whining and fight back! When some lunatic (foreign of domestic) decides to destroy the heart of America it's time to fly the flags at full staff, and say NEVER AGAIN! We just won't stand for it anymore.

Instead of searching citizens and confiscating everything longert than a paper clip, perhaps it's time to issue eveery citizen a loaded firearm every time we get on an airplane. The result? NO MORE HIJACKINGS! Too simplistic? Look in the US Constitution for words that say things like "Well regulated milita."

What has happened to us? We have gone from a nation of fighters to a group of prey. An old Chief Petty Officer once told me, "Boy, in this ocean (the world) there are only two kinds of fish. Sharks, and Guppies. Which are you?"

I don't suppose any of this will make one whit of difference. But ther is ar least one Citizen who refuses to be a guppy any longer.

Hear me terrorists, foreign and domestic. You have in the words of Imperial Japanese Admirial Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor, "Aroused a sleeping tiger, and filled him with a terrible resolve.

NEVER AGAIN!

Lee Akers

Amen, Lee, Amen!!

We need to bring the full shock and awe capability of the US military down on the heads of the religious pirates of radical Islam who want to destroy this country. The sooner the better. As an example, why does Iran still have a navy? We should have sunk their whole fleet after they captured the british soliders.

It is an abomination that our congressional leaders are such cowards and don't want us to succeed in the war against the pirates because it undermines their own personal quest for power.

It is irresponsible to campaign as populist, "conservative", and centrist, and then govern as a group of elite socialists. It is immoral to attempt to govern as though you have a "mandate" on issues which you did NOT have the "courage" to campaign.

I am also sick and tired of "compassionate conservatism". Frankly, the premillennial and pietistic tendencies of the evangelicals and other neo-cons who have a strangle hold on the republican party are doing us great harm. Please quit misinterpreting the Holy Scriptures. Quit using the book of Revelation as a weegie board. Predicting the end times is NOT the main focus or purpose of Scripture. We should stop using it in this manner to guide our foreign policy.

It is time we fly our flag at the top of the pole. It is time we take pride in our national heritage. It is time we appreciate the freedom we have in this country and do all that is in our power to preserve that freedom.

It IS time that we get tough.



[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 4/27/2007).]

One word answer "BUSH"

As someone that's been beat with a shovel I can say beating someone or bullying them around does not gain their respect or their cooperation. It only makes them despise you and hate you more with each knock down. Sinking some Podunk navy ship or dropping bombs among civilians in the Middle East would have the same result as our war in Iraq is having- we're making enemies among all sects of the Iraqi people. I say sects, because it has become a religious battle for them; it's about which sect will have the power, the money, the control, the authority to espouse their religious views.

The world is a lot smaller than it was prior to WWII. We're all more accessible and more vulnerable. Bullying a nation, a people, or an individual is small minded approach to leadership. It's time to get over trying to rule by force- it won't be long before China and Russia have sticks as big as ours; perhaps some "Third World" countries will as well. What's going to happen when they kick on our door? I'd rather befriend everyone I can. Maybe that's a woosey approach in your mind?

Who would you rather deal with? Someone willing to discuss an issue and reach a mutually beneficial compromise, or someone that wants to beat you into submission?

it's about which sect will have the power, the money, the control, the authority

Pretty much every war throughout history could be summed up this same way.

Now we're told the only way to win is to lay down and play nice... as if liberals are on to some unique new secret in human history.

What we've never been shown throughout history is any shred of evidence that a pacifist response to aggression has ever worked.

You say things are different now.
I say that (as the quote you gave up above should spell out) things are all too much the same.

Now we're told the only way to win is to lay down and play nice... as if liberals are on to some unique new secret in human history.

What we've never been shown throughout history is any shred of evidence that a pacifist response to aggression has ever worked.

-------------------------------

Rickenhawk:

You're a big tough, brave guy.
You're in your early 30's and in good health.
Be a man.
Step up to the plate and enlist, or shut your hole.
That is all.

"What we've never been shown throughout history is any shred of evidence that a pacifist response to aggression has ever worked."

How about MLK and the civil rights movement?

But before I go sounding off to another R.K. rant about nothing, let me just say that this thread is the biggest REDNECK thing I have ever seen. And if you don't believe me, then I'll drop you at 400 yards with my 7mm Mauser like I did to that six by six muley last fall.

You guys sound like representative Lang the babbling bully from Billings. Beating his chest to the sound of his self-proclaimed righteousness.

Lets solve the quagmire we are in now by getting into another quagmire so that we can pound our chest and show the world how viral we are. We won the war in Iraq. We can win any war we want to, it is the occupation we cannot handle, because occupation takes patience and intelligence. None of which this administration has. The indightments are falling and the house of cards is crumbling. We entered the Iraq war under false pretences and are now at risk of entering another under even more false pretenses. Oil, is it worth all these lives? What are we fighting for? Is it oil, democracy, freedom, WMD's, the republic or a crusade? Ah that's it- a crusade.

To even here a battle cry after learning the TRUTH about the GRAND OLD PARTY lately, is sickening and it is just scary how much blind, religious backed hatred there is in the world. I used to think it was ignorance but now I realize that it is hatred masked as patriotism. Anyone who does not fall into that line of thinking is a liberal, socialist, communist, pinko, fag. The Bush administration is bought and paid for by corporate America and they sold you a bill of goods by pulling the wool over your eyes by pretending to be something they weren't. There is nothing remotely Christian about the deaths in Iraq. If Jesus were alive he is probably be in Guantonamo Bay being tortured.

My entire life I have been hearing conspiracy theories about how if you vote for that "liberal flamer" you will vote for Satin himself, he will then put the mark of the devil on your body. Give me a break we have never had a more ignorant, hateful, power hunger, bought and paid administration-ever. Pseudo-religious, pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-patriotic pukes. Beware of False Profits. We should have listened.

So as you stand in judgment of others I am going to stand in judgment of you and God will stand in Judgment of all of us. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". As you cast your Western, Christian, Capitalistic, and republic stones on people that neither, want them or need them, think about what the Lord would have done. He would have sold his house and all his worldly possessions and moved to Iraq to become a missionary and he would have healed all the soldiers that were fragged and killed by friendly fire. He would have converted these heathens to Christianity and taught them the ways of capitalism -Greed is Good- and these Iraq's would have fallen right in line. They would have opened McDonalds, skateboard parks, baseball fields, strip clubs, casinos, reality TV, Hollywood horror movies and they would have opened schools and universities. Ah you get the picture.

WhoooWhaaa! Amen, God is Good God is Great lets NUKE the world.

well said Stone....Why can't everyone just concentrate on protecting our constitution and leave religion where it belongs which is definately out of politics....

If any of you bothered to read what I said, it had nothing to do with religion. In fact I basically said the opposite. It has nothing to do with religion. Isolationism will fail because it always has failed. We are no better than those who came before us. The stakes will only get higher.

As for the other big bad tough guys in the room, as soon as they go ahead and lay their identity on the line, we'll talk.

Until then, they lack the street cred. Believe me, it would be easy to talk some more smack, but I'd probably end up regretting it later, so I'll abstain. I guess it's the cost of non-anonymity.

I'm not sure the MLK/civil rights movement is really an effective analogy. Calling for social justice is a little different than defending yourself against those who want to wipe you and your way of life off the face of the map. Not sure the Gandhi strategy is really going to have much of an effect on a suicide bomber. They might find it mildly amusing if nothing else.

"because occupation takes patience and intelligence. None of which this administration has."

With all due respect, this is obviously crap. We've got many tens of thousands of troops still stationed in Korea, Japan and Germany to this day. 50 and 60 years after the fact. I'll make the point yet again... we never left these theaters. And during the years that war actually did rage, they were losing around 300 Americans per day, and untold foreign blood was spilled. Those Americans lost far more in two weeks than we've lost in 4 years. But retreat wasn't an option for those Americans, and they pressed on regardless.

That's patience.

You're calling for a complete withdrawal from Iraq almost immediately, based on a historically tiny casualty rate, and have been doing so since basically 2 years into it (if not sooner) I think the most incredible thing you could accuse your opposition of is a lack of "patience."

The whole "no blood for oil" schtick is also getting old, besides the fact that its irrelevant. We could have bought far more oil than we'll ever get back for the economic price we've payed. And most rational policymakers knew that before the war began.

That said, if your supply of oil was cut off tomorrow, you'd end up seeing what blood looks like first hand. You may as well be saying "No blood for food and water" You need oil whether you know it or not.

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (edited 4/28/2007).]

Hey Rick; "I'm your huckleberry."

Until then, they lack the street cred. Believe me, it would be easy to talk some more smack, but I'd probably end up regretting it later, so I'll abstain. I guess it's the cost of non-anonymity.

--------------------

Yup, Rick, nothing screams "street cred" like a guy from Miles City, MT.

Now we're told the only way to win is to lay down and play nice... as if liberals are on to some unique new secret in human history.

--------------

Here's an excerpt from that noted "lib'rul" William F. Buckley.

It is simply untrue that we are making decisive progress in Iraq. The indicators rise and fall from day to day, week to week, month to month. In South Vietnam there was an organized enemy. There is clearly organization in the strikes by the terrorists against our forces and against the civil government in Iraq, but whereas in Vietnam we had Hanoi as the operative headquarters of the enemy, we have no equivalent of that in Iraq, and that is a matter of paralyzing importance. All those bombings, explosions, assassinations: we are driven to believe that they are, so to speak, spontaneous.

When the Romans were challenged by Christianity, Rome fell. The generation of Christians moved by their faith overwhelmed the regimented reserves of the Roman state. It was four years ago that Mr. Cheney first observed that there was a real fear that each fallen terrorist leads to the materialization of another terrorist. What can a 'surge,' of the kind we are now relying upon, do to cope with endemic disease?

Rick you said, "If any of you bothered to read what I said, it had nothing to do with religion. In fact I basically said the opposite. It has nothing to do with religion. Isolationism will fail because it always has failed. We are no better than those who came before us. The stakes will only get higher."
Rick, it is modest of you to think that all these posts are directed at you. When it comes to religion I see nothing religious about your conservative mudslinging and your borderline hatred for liberals, and anybody who does not fall into your Republican Beltway, talk radio, indoctrinated line of crap. As for isolationism- the one time in US history that we were quasi-isolationistic we had one of the most prosperous economic periods in our history. I do not mind policing the world but there is a big difference between policing and all out oil genocide. We entered this war under false pretenses- no lie, but fact.

This was, from the beginning, Dick Cheany's war fought on behalf of Halliburton. Now the Dick Cheany machine is concentrating on getting you and your fat talk radio host to believe that there is no such thing as Global warming. Now with all the evidence they have changed their mind. Now they are saying that there is Global Warming but it is not caused by burning of fossil fuels. What is next, there is Global Warming and it is caused by the burning of fossil fuels but not the fossil fuels burned by Halliburton.

Rick, -"I'm not sure the MLK/civil rights movement is really an effective analogy. Calling for social justice is a little different than defending yourself against those who want to wipe you and your way of life off the face of the map. Not sure the Gandhi strategy is really going to have much of an effect on a suicide bomber. They might find it mildly amusing if nothing else."

-Have we ever tried a national piece policy or an isolation policy. NO. Why? Because we have to police the world so the world will be ready for our global swill and our western culture so that they may become fat consumers of everything good in the world. You better reread your Indian history if you think there was no blood shed in their independence. Rick not every Muslim or Rag head as you would want to call them is a terrorist and I do not think that you are on there radar. If somebody occupied your country like in your favorite movie "Red Dawn" which was part of the Hollywood hysteria known as the domino theory that catapulted Ronald Reagan to power, you would, I hope, strap pipe bombs to your chest and take out numerous Russian solider and yell "Wolverines" while dieing a traggic death of religous misconception.

Rick said, "With all due respect, this is obviously crap. We've got many tens of thousands of troops still stationed in Korea, Japan and Germany to this day. 50 and 60 years after the fact. But retreat wasn't an option for those Americans, and they pressed on regardless. That's patience."

Rick so you are saying that the post war occupation of these countries was a Republican success story. There were no democratic presidents during any of that occupation? I think that the Japanese and their anti-American protestor in (Okinawa) might have something to say about that. Patience was exercised by whom? Lets see Saudi Arabian men fly jets into the towers so we invade Iraq. We find NO WMD anywhere in Iraq. We could have accomplished what we did in Iraq with a single snipers bullet to Sadams head. Game Over, but that is not what the oil barons and religious zealots want. For different reasons of course but they wanted each wanted a crusade. One group wanted to start Armageddon (you think the Muslim religious fringe is whacked, check out the American Conservative Modern Christian movement better know as the cult movement- HATE) and the other group wanted to contain its flow of oil. You said it yourself, "That said, if your supply of oil was cut off tomorrow, you'd end up seeing what blood looks like first hand. You may as well be saying "No blood for food and water" You need oil whether you know it or not.

Exactly, Rick and Halliburton and Dick Cheany are going to make sure, at all cost, that we get all the oil we can consume and they are not going to let Iraq or Global Warming get in there way.

For the record Rick I am not calling for the immediate and complete withdrawal on Iraq. We need a staged withdrawal and an immediate UN embargo and blockade of Iran until they capitulate as for N. Korea we need to force China and Russia to deal with their regional problem. They can share in the price of Global Piece keeping. After all the communist country of China are the worlds fastest growing capitalistic economy the new Global World. So they should have a vested interest in anything that might impede their growth. We need to be tough but not stupid. A thousand points of light Rick-a thousand points of light. Stay the Course Rick-GLOBALISM AT ALL COST.

Bob - Rick's fighting the War on Straw, so he's a little busy right now.

Why should we bother reading what he writes when he'll just tell us what he really wrote in the next three or four posts?

as Eisenhower said long ago "beware the military industrial complex" ...

And in the very same speech he said:

Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology -- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger is poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle -- with liberty the stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.

Fits pretty well in today's world too, I think.

in eisenhowers reference to Military Industrial Complex wikipedia defined it as follows:
The term is most often used in reference to the United States, where it gained popularity after its use in the farewell address of President Dwight D. Eisenhower. As pejorative terms, the "MIC" or the "iron triangle" refer to an institutionalised collusion among defense contractors (industry), The Pentagon (military), and the United States government (Congress, Executive branch), as a cartel that works against the public interest, and whose motivation is profiteering.

I didn't have to go somewhere to see what someone else thought he said or meant - I simply went to the speech.

http://coursesa.matrix.ms...ndust.html

I stand by my previous post.

I wasnt doing anything but defining my own comment and what I had meant by it.....Had nothing to do with the entire speech....opposing viewpoints are sorta like chocolate and vanilla icecream...They make life more interesting and flavorful and are to simply be enjoyed...

One of the undeniable truths of life is that every nation that has come to power and maintained their sovereignty throughout world history has done so through the aggressive use of force. When a nation is not able or unwilling to defend itself than nation ceases to exist.

For thirty years we have watched the religious pirates of radical Islam conduct their suicide bomb campaign around the world. In many of those places around the world they have been successful in conquering countries. They have killed millions of people who do not agree with their religious views.

The notion that we are on a "crusade" for the purpose of religious conversion is not true. From a Christian perspective, only God can create converts. In the war against the religious pirates of radical Islam, we are on a "crusade" to preserve as many lives as possible. The religious views of those we are currently defending is immaterial to the situation. This war is ultimatley about preserving as many lives as possible, which again from the Christan perspective is one of the God ordained purposes of a government. It is really ignorant to put your head in the sand and insist that religion and politics must be separate, when they are inter-related on so many levels.

Several of our "administrations" have tried the "we need to talk to our enemies" approach. It has not worked. All pacifism has done is bring us more and larger attacks, emboldening those who want to conquer our nation. Small minded leadership is insisting we can/should continue to "talk" when we are under attack. Rather, we need to get tough!


[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 4/30/2007).]

Richard -

When you say "get tough", what, precisely, do you mean?

What are the specific forign policies that you would adopt, and what would their ramifications be, both positive and negative?

The President defined Iran, Iraq, and North Korea as the "axis of evil". Yet, Iran defied the world with the capture of the British sailors and it was a least a week before our President said anything about it. Iran basically got away with thumbing their nose at us. It won't be long before they try something else.

When I say "get tough" I mean that we should pursue whatever action necessary to make certain such action don't occur again. If that means we sink their navy or blowup a gas refinery then we should send a clear message that we are not going to tolerate such behavior. Right now, we are marginalized in our ability to respond because there is so much hyper-sensitivity about the use of force.

When I say "get though" we ought to get in Russia's face about helping Saddam move the WMD's. (You can read Bill Gertz to learn about this incident).

My biggest arena for "getting tough" is the wimpy attitude and actions of the republicans. This is the biggest area where we need some toughness. There is no outcry from republican congressional leaders over the outrageous comments of Sen. Harry Reid. Republicans should be demanding this guy resign. It angers me that Harry can declare the "war is lost" when it is not. And even if it is, why give the religious pirates of radical Islam any hope? The silence of republicans is deafening.

The republicans should be confronting the issue of democrats acting as though they have a mandates on issues that the democrats did not campaign. No one in the republican party is pointing out the hypocrisy. The silence of republicans is deafening.

The republicans ought to be leading the charge to keep our economy strong by further reductions in taxes and commensurate reductions in spending. Again, the silence is deafening. And tax rates for everyone are going up.

We have a president who from the second day in office started in with the "new tone in Washington" crap and because it is the "PC" thing to do the republicans continue their march to the left. There is a huge vacuum of leadership that stands on principle.

The lack of toughness has left me very disillusioned, disappointed, and discouraged about the future of the greatest nation on earth.

I am also frustrated that it takes 100 million dollars to change the situation.


[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 5/1/2007).]

Richard, I'm asking for specific ideas, not vague manly posturing and bitching about what those evil Democrats have done.

Particularly, I'd like to see some evidence that you are willing to think through the consequences of what it is you are suggesting, once you get around to suggesting something beyond "blowing sh*t up".

Bridgier:

My frustration is with REPUBLICANS and what they are not doing, not with democrats are doing. Democrats are what they are.

Hopefully, blowing up strategic targets destabilizes the region and more relationtional minds will rise to power and occupy the void left by the religious pirates.

When I say "get though" we ought to get in Russia's face about helping Saddam move the WMD's. (You can read Bill Gertz to learn about this incident).

--------------------

Oh, good grief.

Bill Gertz????

Um, OK. *backing away slowly*

Richard,

By your belief that we should be involved, or blow something up.... then shouldn't we be sticking our noses into Turkish politics where the government is shifting to a fundamentalist Islamic doctrine? Their own military is threatening to stage a coup.

If they have publicly threatened us, then yes.

I think we should just nuke the entire region. Turn that sand into glass. Who care if the fallout kills us all.

Being tuff is one thing, attacking the wrong country under false pretenses is yet another.

Once again, a single snipers bullet could have accomplished what we did in Iraq. Iran's nuclear capability is much more important than Sadam was.

What ever happened to Osama bin Laden? Why are there photos of the Bin Laden family and the Bush family standing together? OIL?

It is not about oil.

So here are a few more specific actions we should take to finish up in Iraq. We ought to focus our attention on eliminating the threats from the religious pirates of radical Islam and leave the nation building to the Iraqi people. That is why we went there in the first place.

-We should immediately pull our military our of Baghdad and use them to seal the borders with Syria and Iran. This will cut off the supply of bomb making parts and insurgent troops. Let Iraq security take care of religious pirates in Baghdad.

-The Sunni triangle seems to be one of the locations for the religious pirates. We should give this area 72 hours to get the women and children out and then we should level that area. There are a couple of other hot-spots where we should use this strategy.

-Iraq should be divided into four regions as it was in the 20's by the league of nations and a portion given to each of the four sects of Islam.

-We need to put the entire region on notice that they need to leave us alone. Future events like 9-11 will be met with shock and awe the likes of which they have never seen.

-Bring our national guard troops home so that we can focus on homeland security at home.

Richard, by most of your posts I agree with and you sound like a patriotic American. However, I fundamentally disagree with you on the importance of OIL and its influence on the decision to invade Iraq after 9/11. I believe that we invaded the wrong country. Nonetheless I like your ideas about pulling out of Baghdad and controlling the boarders. I agree that the country will have to be divided into three or four regions. I believe that we need a staged withdrawal of Iraq to avoid all out civil war and genocide.

"-We need to put the entire region on notice that they need to leave us alone. Future events like 9-11 will be met with shock and awe the likes of which they have never seen."

How can they leave us alone when thousands of American Civilian oil workers are in the region? We continually support Israel's Arab hating behavior and we fund Israel's war machine. Historically we have been sticking our noses in Arabian affairs since WWI. Maybe we should leave them alone. But that would be isolationism and counter productive to the Global Economy and the oil machine. Shock and awe even the name screams arrogance and self-righteousness and redneck. Once again Iraq had very little if anything to do with 9/11. So like you I am growing tired of this debate as I am repeating myself.

How many Iraq's were on the 9/11 flights?
Where is Osama bin Laden?
Why does the Bush family and the bin Laden family know each other?
Why was Bin Laden family members aloud to fly out of the U.S. when every other plane was grounded?

This is a crusade not a crusade as you say, of "conversion" but one of Revelation. Certain Rednecks in the White House think they can speed up the rapture by speeding up Armageddon.

Richard stated that, "Several of our "administrations" have tried the "we need to talk to our enemies" approach. It has not worked. All pacifism has done is bring us more and larger attacks, emboldening those who want to conquer our nation." Conquer our nation?? What?? They do not want to conquer infidels. Only Dr. Evil wants to conquer us.

So as Jesus died on the cross for our sins he should have not turned the other cheek but instead he should have went shock and awe on there as---. Behold the rider on the pale horse for his name is Richard and he has a full can of Shock and Awe.

Pirates. Arrgh.

"The Sunni triangle seems to be one of the locations for the religious pirates. We should give this area 72 hours to get the women and children out and then we should level that area. There are a couple of other hot-spots where we should use this strategy."

This is a war crime. And something you should probably discuss with your pastor, as there appears to be a failure to grasp certain core tenents of the Christianity you espouse elsewhere.

Control Iraq's borders? We can't even control our own!

Stone: "So as Jesus died on the cross for our sins he should have not turned the other cheek but instead he should have went shock and awe on there as---. Behold the rider on the pale horse for his name is Richard and he has a full can of Shock and Awe."

You are attempting to paint me with your jaundiced, sarcastic, and cookie-cutter view of Christians. When I consider my personal depravity and the depravity of man in general, I am in "shock and awe" with regard to the actions of Christ on the cross. You shouldn't mock this event.

Bridgier: "This is a war crime. And something you should probably discuss with your pastor, as there appears to be a failure to grasp certain core tenants of the Christianity you espouse elsewhere."

This maybe war crime only because the UN defines it that way. Who is the UN?

There is no failure in my ability to grasp the core tenants of Christianity. I would encourage both of you to go read what Martin Luther wrote about being citizens of two Kingdoms,the interactions between those kingdoms, and why God establishes governments. The actions I suggested in the Sunni triangle will result in a lot of lives being saved.

Also, you should read George Tenents new book where he confirms that Alkida was in Iraq on 911. We went to Iraq because we are after
Alkida.

Neither Bush or Cheney has ever said that Saddam was operationally involved in 911. The "drive-by media" would like to believe that they have said those things, but it is not true.


[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 5/2/2007).]

Stone: "Why was Bin Laden family members aloud to fly out of the U.S. when every other plane was grounded?"

I know you may want to believe this but.....

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

Pirates. Arrgh.

--------------------

When I hear the term religious pirates, I think of Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart or someone of their ilk.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Atta-boy Richard! You're starting to sound like me!

*Hy-Yah*

Chipmunk Ninja ver. 2.0 (NOW w/ more Potassium!)

It's a war crime because your soul should recoil from the very idea of "flattening" the people who realisticly would be unable to meet your deadline - children, the poor, the sick, the lame.

I simply don't see how this solution can be squared with a Christian faith. If "I was just following orders" didn't cut it at Nuremburg, why would it at the pearly gates?

Richard, with all due respect I know that your theological knowledge is immense. Nonetheless, I do not believe that Jesus would have ever believed that killing would be done in his name.

Secondly you and I fundamentally disagree on the reason that the U.S. entered the war in Iraq instead of going after Bin Laden and the countries that truly fund terror. Terrorist are country less much like the funny pirates. Every country in the world should declare war on terrorist not Countries.

Richard I did not intend to make fun of your beliefs, I to believe that Jesus died for our sins. What makes me made is dogma and church hierarchy killing in his name. I also stated that I liked your ideas about what to do in Iraq. However, I just do not think that we should have been there in the first place. I stand by my belief that we hastily went to the wrong country. Or should have we gone to any country? Strategically bomb cells, assassinate them, and freeze their assets.

Russell, you got me there but the pictures of Bush and Bin Laden together do not lie.
Anyway Richard I did not mean to offend you only to present a differing philosophy. By the way there are many countries with dictators that have no oil- why do we not take them out?

America is a bully. The Divided States of Embarrassment received a long overdue wake up call on 9/11...Never again? I wonder how many times the battered peoples of other countries have screamed "Never Again" in response to America's shenanigans.

Oh yeah, Jesus was a hippie. He was most likely a homosexual as well. Not intending to insult here.

Particularly, I'd like to see some evidence that you are willing to think through the consequences of what it is you are suggesting

So who on your side is really addressing the consequences of surrender in Iraq?

Or do consequences only exist where there are video cameras and reporters?

"We continually support Israel's Arab hating behavior and we fund Israel's war machine."

I guess as Michael Jordan used to say, "It's gotta be the Jews"

an excuse as old as history.

anyway, blaming Isreal for our war with Islam is like blaming the Czechs for World War II. Those who would sacrifice them for "peace" should really read about the Sudetenland.

But for those of us who believe history repeats itself, here's a little taste of what comes after:

http://fe24.news.re3.yaho...spain_dc_1
Al Qaeda has said it wants to regain once-Muslim lands like Al-Andalus -- the southern swathe of Spain now called Andalucia.

Damn us and our 1000AD reconquest of Spain. We're just asking for it. I'm sure they won't invade Poland afterwards though.




[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (edited 5/3/2007).]

Richard asks "Who is the UN?" It's the same group the right wing holds up as a reason to invade Iraq. Saddam broke 19 different UN resolutions, so we have to invade his country, and kills tens of thousands of his people. You can't have it both ways Richard. Either the UN sucks, and you have to quit using it as an excuse for invading Iraq, or they are a relevant organization in this world, doing some good wherever they can.. You pick.
Your idea about a 24 hour time period before bombing the Sunni Triangle has some merit. But as a Christian, I suspect you put some credence in the Ten Commandments? I think it's the 5th commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill" No comma, no what if, no nothing. Plain and simple - Thou shalt not kill. Again, you seem to be cherry picking the very beliefs that most Christians hold dear. Either the Ten Commandments are relevant to you as a Christian, or they are not. Is it really OK to toss out the inconvenient ones?

"and kills tens of thousands of his people"

It was easily (and irrefutably) hundreds of thousands, if not a million.

Of course I'm not correcting for the liberal coefficient of cameras and/or reporters present.

So 400,000(dead people) x 0 (cameras/reporters) = 10,000? I guess

I have a hard time with the "new math"

And how many times do we have to have this "Thou shalt not kill" discussion. Murder is obviously the more correct translation.

"... something you should probably discuss with your pastor, as there appears to be a failure to grasp certain core tenents of the Christianity you espouse elsewhere."

And I think you might want to go over with your priest how (at this juncture) leaving Iraq to the Iraqis is any different than Pilate leaving the fate of the King of the Jews to the Jews.

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (edited 5/3/2007).]

Rick, I happen to be a Quaker, not a Catholic.

The topic of this thread is "Get Tough". I'm trying to determine what that means - upon further examination, it seems that "Get Tough" means "Killing People". Since Richard brought up the religious angle, I felt it was fair game to ask him to square that with his professed desire to see the deaths of women and children, so that his his way of life would feel secure.

If you want to change the subject to What's Wrong With Weasely Defeatocrats, please start another thread.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (edited 5/3/2007).]

I mis-typed that Rick. I meant, WE invade Iraq and kill tens of thousands of Saddam's people. And, I was refering to Richards idea of mass bombing in the Sunni Triangle when I mentioned the Ten Commandments. According to the 5th commandment, our country is quite guilty of murder. Murder being your word of choice, not mine.

And I think you might want to go over with your priest how (at this juncture) leaving Iraq to the Iraqis is any different than Pilate leaving the fate of the King of the Jews to the Jews.

-------------

Rick:

Perhaps you should stick to one wildly inappropriate analogy, instead of working two of them into the same thread.

Iraq War = WWII
Iraq War = Crucifixion of Christ

And yet somehow:
Iraq War <> Vietnam War

Well, all right then.

Let's break it down.
U.S. = Romans???
Nancy Pelosi = Pontius Pilate???
Maliki = Jesus???
Iraqi People = Jews

No, that doesn't work.

Iraq Government = Romans
Bush = Pontius Pilate
Rick K. = Jesus
Al Queda = Jews

No....


Help me out here.

If my priest told me that our current situation in Iraq is analagous to the crucifixion, I'd call the Diocese and suggest he be sent to the Old Priest's home. But that's just me.

Amen Brother.

I see Rick is back, it is much like passing a stone.

An intense discussion . . . it's interesting to see how far apart folks are on this.

I've nothing to add (that would likely sway anyone's opinion one way or the other), except to offer a couple suggestions on additional information sources.

I heard a piece on NPR earlier this week dealing with suicide bombers in Iraq. It seemed to have broader implications than just the bombers/bombings . . . and (at least in my mind) touched on some of themes that have emerged in this thread:
http://www.npr.org/templa...Id=9966084

But what caught my attention was information cited in the piece that had been gathered by Robert Pape. Pape, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, is the director of the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism.

I think I'll get a copy of his latest book and give it a read:

Robert Pape, DYING TO WIN: THE STRATEGIC LOGIC OF SUICIDE TERRORISM (Random House,2005).
Reviewed in Wikipedia, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w..._Terrorism

A sample of Pape's writing can be found here, if you want to check him out before investing in the book.

Robert A. Pape, "The Strategic Logic Of Suicide Terrorism," AMERICAN POLITICAL SCIENCE REVIEW, Vol. 97, No. 3 August 2003.
http://www.danieldrezner..../Pape1.pdf
= = = = = = = = =


If you keep your wits about you and employ some critical thinking skills these aren't bad resources:

The two blogs I mentioned in another thread often provide good leads to information:
http://milescity.com/foru...fpid=27273

As do these web sites:

The Joint Threat Anticipation Center, a collaborative project of the University of Chicago Center for International Studies and Argonne National Laboratory.
http://jtac.uchicago.edu/conferences/05/

STRATEGIC INSIGHTS, the Center for Contemporary Conflict, U.S. Naval Postgraduate School.
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/index.asp

MIDDLE EAST In Focus, Foreign Policy In Focus (FPIF) a joint project of International Relations Center & Institute for Policy Studies.
http://www.fpif.org/indic...deast.html

Additionally, the Center for Contemporary Conflict maintains a pretty decent set of links to resources that are useful in research along these lines:
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.m...meland.asp

Matt said I think it's the 5th commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill" No comma, no what if, no nothing. Plain and simple - Thou shalt not kill.

And Rick replied And how many times do we have to have this "Thou shalt not kill" discussion. Murder is obviously the more correct translation.

Sorry Rick, but the Hebrew of the fifth commandment doesn't obviously say murder. It says kill. But the Hebrew could be descriptive rather than a command, "you will not kill" Either way, the challenge and relevency to this discussion is not the kill/murder, but who "you" is. Does it apply to all people? Does it apply to the government/law-making entities acting on behalf of the society? Or does it apply only to the individual? The problem is in the interpretation.

One of the most difficult interpretations for the 5th commandment comes a few years later. you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matt 5:21-22)

So to Jesus, the fifth commandment extended beyond killing and murdering. It included being angry with one's brother or calling him names. (with twelve of them, I'm guilty.)

So is there a difference between actually taking a life and calling your brother names? (I would answer that in the kingdom of heaven, no, but in the kingdom of this world, yes)

In the context of war, whose guilty of killing? The person pulling the trigger? The one giving the order? The government that begins the hostilities? The government that is attacked? To use theology to justify or defend political action is a little more difficult than just quoting a commandment.

I personally find the Just War concept valuable. As a grunt, I would be guilty of murder, but with God there is forgiveness.

Maybe this is a case for "Sin boldly"

[This message has been edited by Jon Bonine (edited 5/5/2007).]

I can't say I agree with you on your interpretation (I guess in this case of the Hebrew "ratsah"

From what I've read it was much more widely used in a context closer (in English) to "murder" than "kill" Now I'm not qualified in any way to know this from any language study, but I believe the murder interpretation is cemented by other references in the bible.

How could god lay down a bedrock commandment that says "Do Not Kill" but then go about advocating death for this or that offense, or guide his people to go to war?

In many cases it's impossible to have an exact translation from one language to another, and this appears to be one of those cases.

"it is much like passing a stone"

How do you know, did you ask your mom?

Matt, sorry, I should have caught your meaning. I obviously didn't read that correctly.

OH MY! I leave for a couple of days and look what happens.

-Just as one should not drink and drive, one should read thoroughly before they rant.

-I find it interesting, ironic, and irritating that I was asked for substantive solutions to extricate our military from Iraq and rather than debate the merit or lack thereof, my personal theology becomes the main focus. Unfortunately, much of what I have said is best characterized as "to those who "believe", no explanation is necessary, to those who do not "believe", no explanation is possible".

-Let me start by adding to what Jon said about the fifth commandment. If you read Exodus in context you progress from the giving for the Ten Commandments to God telling the Israelites to wipe out all of the "ites" in the promise land. Is God a hypocrite? By definition, He can't be God if He is hypocritical. So there must be another explanation.

I believe that God establishes government for His divine purposes. One of those functions of government is the protection of the people. (This is clearly stated in the Book of Romans.)

Earlier I suggested that you read Luther's doctrine of the two kingdoms to understand my perspective. Martin Luther's doctrine of the two kingdoms (or two reigns) of God teaches that God is the ruler of the whole world and that he rules in two ways.

He rules the earthly or left-hand kingdom through secular (and, though this point is often misunderstood, also churchly) government, by means of law (i.e., the sword or compulsion) and in the heavenly or righthand kingdom (his spiritual kingdom, that is, Christians insofar as they are a new creation who spontaneously and voluntarily obey) through the gospel or grace.

Here is a link that better explains this doctrine:
http://www.lca.org.au/res...ngdoms.pdf

War is justified to protect a citizenry from the tyranny of an enemy who wants to kills us all. If bombing the Sunni triangle removes some of the threat to our national security then it is justified, especially when in the big picture more lives are spared than are taken.

"Getting Tough" means using all tools and tactics at our disposal to convince the enemy that it is no longer worth fighting. Harry Truman "got tough" and ended WWII with Japan. Our current policy of attempting to fight a war in a "PC" manner will ultimately result in more "innocent" people being killed than if we were to simply eliminate the enemy.

Again, one of the undeniable truths of life is that every nation that has come to power and maintained their sovereignty throughout world history has done so through the aggressive use of force. When a nation is not able or unwilling to defend itself than nation ceases to exist.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 5/5/2007).]

Come on, you're not even trying...

The WWII analogy (in this case) was in reference to Arab/Israeli relations, on a totally different line of discussion.

The Pilate analogy was in regards to our responsibility (of authority) in Iraq.

Trying to say that every character in an analogy needs a corresponding actor is obviously wrong, and meant to distract from the validity of my point. Beyond that, you're not even making an honest attempt to cast people in their correct places.

Iraq War = WWII
Iraq War = Crucifixion of Christ


Not really what I said.

Throwing Israel under a bus = WWII
Our Current Role in Iraq = The dilemma of Pilate (before the Crucifixion)

or if you're referencing previous WWII analogies of mine, my WWII analogy for Iraq is Italy.

Let's break it down.
U.S. = Romans???
Nancy Pelosi = Pontius Pilate???
Maliki = Jesus???
Iraqi People = Jews

Again, for this analogy to work, really only the role of Pilate needs to be understood.

But since we're giving it a shot.

the US = Pilate
The Iraqi people = Jesus
Democrats = the Jewish mob

and just for fun
Harry Reid = Judas
Nancy Pelosi = Beelzebub

Rick, Rick, Rick... Don't turn on the Bonines. They're the closest thing you have to political allies (though there are definitely points of difference) and you can bet they own theology on this forum.

God is viewed as a political "cop out" among some, (sometimes myself, and since he's a gambling man, I'd bet Bob L. (I'm looking at Gunnar too and these parentheses are going all Mr. Potts)) but the Bonine clan's faith never waivers - they don't contradict their own beliefs, as far as I've seen, but when the bible becomes a convenience you're looking at real problems. Things are usually pretty even around here, stick to your guns - Iraq is a hotbead of terrorism and Iran is a nuclear threat - those are justified arguments.

I haven't turned on any Bonines. Just a friendly discussion for me to try to learn something from.

Also, from reading more, I spelled the Hebrew word wrong above. The word is actually "ratsach" "ratsah" is also a hebrew word, but it's meaning is totally unrelated. Sorry if I confused anyone.

>> Also, from reading more, I spelled the Hebrew word wrong above. The word is actually "ratsach". . . Sorry if I confused anyone.

I read it as "rasta" the first time - that was really confusing

Good - both you and the Bonines have opened my mind. Right now, I'm in the land of the left-wing, it's surprising how conservative I think when I'm confronted by people that forget how the rest of the world thinks.

Who's not trying?


-----------------------------

"The WWII analogy (in this case) was in reference to Arab/Israeli relations, on a totally different line of discussion."


How about this one?

We've got many tens of thousands of troops still stationed in Korea, Japan and Germany to this day. 50 and 60 years after the fact. I'll make the point yet again... we never left these theaters. And during the years that war actually did rage, they were losing around 300 Americans per day, and untold foreign blood was spilled. Those Americans lost far more in two weeks than we've lost in 4 years. But retreat wasn't an option for those Americans, and they pressed on regardless.

------------------------------------------------------------


"The Pilate analogy was in regards to our responsibility (of authority) in Iraq."

"Again, for this analogy to work, really only the role of Pilate needs to be understood."



What? Here's your unhinged quote:

"And I think you might want to go over with your priest how (at this juncture) leaving Iraq to the Iraqis is any different than Pilate leaving the fate of the King of the Jews to the Jews"


Maybe you shouldn't specifically refer to Jesus and the Jews if they're not part of your analogy. Who's the "King of the Jews in your analogy?"

God is viewed as a political "cop out" among some, (sometimes myself, and since he's a gambling man, I'd bet Bob L.

---------------------------------------

You got me there, Buckaroo. What have you been up to since you lost the Texas job?

I often view the use of God and the Bible as a political cop out. But not because I occasionally gamble.

I'm old enough to remember when people used the Bible to justify their racist views.

Buckaroo, if you were a betting man, which side of the civil rights argument do you think Rick K. would have been on? Do you think there would have been some Old Testament quotes thrown around?

Speaking of gambling, can anyone give me some good Biblical quotes that are anti-gambling? Anyone? Bueller?

How about the 9th commandment? (10th according to some accountings)

You will not covet...