Lying for the Lord
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
Does anyone want to attempt to disabuse me of the notion that Mitt RMoney has mastered this practice of his religion???


Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified.

For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. "Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.


http://www.mormonwiki.org...r_the_Lord
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Posted by Mary B. (+196) 9 years ago
Not to hijack your thread, Richard, but I find the placement of a Rehberg sign on the First Presbyterian Church lawn very peculiar.

By not taxing churches, the government is prevented from directly interfering with how those churches operate. By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate such that the effectively endorse that person's opponent.

What this means is that charitable and religious organizations which receive a 501(c)(3) tax exemption have a clear and simple choice to make: they can engage in religious activities and retain their exemption, or they can engage in political activity and lose it, but they cannot engage in political activity and retain their exemption.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Mary...I just put that information on my Facebook page. Thank you.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6172) 9 years ago
Richard, I'm really disappointed that you would buy into the gunk spewed by this obviously anti-Mormon website. I daresay that all religions have some really weird doctrine and all religions have less than admirable histories. In all the 18 years I've lived in Utah I have never heard this particular doctrine mentioned.

This emphasis on Romney's religion puzzles me a little. Would we be examining it this closely if he were Presbyterian? Probably not. While I'm sure his faith has shaped some of his character I would not attribute all his unattractive personality traits to his LDS faith. It's really not fair. I think he's just naturally an opportunist. I think he's naturally a bully. The fact that he's a politician means he lies frequently. I don't think God has much to do with it.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
Sorry, I think those that want to practice literalism while seeking public office need to be exposed. Rmoney's brand of literalism is more toxic than other flavors.

I think his missionary training in this doctrine explains a large part of his windsock nature.
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Posted by Larry (+150) 9 years ago
Just one question. When Romney is elected president, can we then blame obama for the mess we are in. Just wondering
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17732) 9 years ago
No. When Romney is elected president, we still have to blame the guy who caused the mess, George W. Bush. Obama only partially fixed Bush's mess.

Note that Obama would have probably fixed Bush's mess, if it were not for the scorched earth tactics of the Republican party. There is the real source of the mess we are in.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Have any of you read, "Billionaires & Ballot Bandits: How To Steal an Election in 9 Easy Steps" by Greg Palast? If not...please do so. I just downloaded it onto my Kindle and have not been able to set it down. Serious.
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 9 years ago
Will download a copy, Jeri, thanks for the tip...
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 9 years ago
Thanks To Brian Reed for this one....

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Posted by SD (+1532) 9 years ago
I wonder how hard it would be to download a birth certificate that says you are B. Hussein Obama. Can`t be too hard. He did it.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Actually, you can go to snopes.com and really have a choice of Birth Certificates...different variations. Sometimes when people try to prove their point and embellish..rats..they forget something. Entertaining.
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founder
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11978) 9 years ago
All religions have silly and weird rituals. Human being love silly and weird rituals. Much of the LDS stuff comes from Masonic ritual because Joseph Smith was a Mason and he ran out of imagination after the golden tablets.
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Posted by Kacey (+3154) 9 years ago
SD,

HOW ignornant does a person have to be to still hold on to this nonsense? I realize there are people who would say it was dark while the sun was shining JUST to be oppositional. But give it up already.
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Posted by Mufasa (+87) 9 years ago
The sun is always shining whether it is light or dark.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
I wonder if you can do this if you are member of the Presbyterian church. It's stories like this that make Mitts religion relevant to the election.




By David Edwards
Monday, October 29, 2012 15:08 EDT
Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney used a loophole to "rent" the Mormon church's tax exemption status and defer paying taxes for 15 years, according to a new report.

Tax returns obtained by Bloomberg News through a Freedom of Information Act request indicated that Romney set up a charitable remainder unitrust (CRUT) in June 1996 just before Congress cracked down on the loophole in 1997.

"In this instance, Romney used the tax-exempt status of a charity - the Mormon Church, according to a 2007 filing - to defer taxes for more than 15 years," Bloomberg's Jesse Drucker explained. "At the same time he is benefitting, the trust will probably leave the church with less than what current law requires."


Estates lawyer Jonathan Blattmachr told Bloomberg that Romney's trust benefits from the Mormon church's exempt status because charities don't pay capital gains taxes when they make a profit from the sale of assets.

"The main benefit from a charitable remainder trust is the renting from your favorite charity of its exemption from taxation," Blattmachr said, adding that the charitable contribution "is just a throwaway" and the church would receive little if any financial benefit from the trust.

"I used to structure them so the value dedicated to charity was as close to zero as possible without being zero," he pointed out.

The CRUT allows individuals to "defer capital gains taxes on any profit from the sale of the assets, and receive a small upfront charitable deduction and a stream of yearly cash payments," Drucker wrote. "Like an individual retirement account, the trust allows money to grow tax deferred, while like an annuity it also pays Romney a steady income. After the funder's death, the trust's remaining assets go to a designated charity."

In fact, the amount available to go to the Mormon church has decreased from at least $750,000 in 2001 to $421,203 at the end of 2011 as Romney has collected yearly cash payments from the trust.

The Romney campaign declined to answer questions about the trust but insisted that it was "operated in accordance with the law" in an email to Bloomberg.


The trust represents a small fraction of Romney's more than $250 million fortune and is only one of several methods the formal Bain Capital CEO has employed to avoid paying taxes.

Earlier this year, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV), who is also a Mormon, had suggested that the Republican presidential nominee refused to release his tax returns because he had not paid any income taxes over a 10-year period.

In a September speech on the Senate floor, Reid said that leaked tapes insulting the 47 percent of Americans who don't pay income taxes as "dependant" on the government have gave the world a "rare look at the real Mitt Romney."

"For all we know Mitt Romney could be one of those who have paid no federal income tax. Thousands of families making more than a million dollars per year pay nothing in federal income tax," the Nevada Democrat observed. "Is Mitt Romney among those? We'll never know because he refuses to release his tax returns."

"We know that Mitt Romney pays a lower tax rate than middle-class families, thanks to a number of things he's done: Swiss bank accounts, Cayman Islands tax shelters. And we can only imagine what new secrets would be revealed if he showed the American people a dozen years of tax returns like his dad did."

Reid noted that most of "those people" who Romney talked about "are not avoiding their tax bills using Cayman Islands tax shelters or Swiss Bank accounts like Mitt Romney. Millions of the 47 percent are seniors on Social Security, who don't have Bain Capital retirement funds or inherited stock to fall back on."


http://www.rawstory.com/r...-15-years/
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
Here is the REAL Mitt RMoney!

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Posted by Elizabeth Emilsson (+792) 9 years ago
Since Billy Gramham endorsed Romney I have come to believe that lying for the Lord is not just a Mormon thing but is wide spread among the Evangelicans. In fact it looks like they all worship the same god, The Almighty Dollar.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Sorry to always be suggesting books...but, "Crazy for God: How I grew up as one of the elect, Helped found the Religious Right, and lived to take all (or almost all) of it back" is quite a good read. Frank Schaffer is the author and it is really interesting as to what goes on behind the scenes other than the public "thumping". His Father was a biggie along with Falwell and the group.
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Posted by Elizabeth Emilsson (+792) 9 years ago
By the way, "Evangelicans' is a my coined expression, meaning Republicans who profess to be Evangeicals.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
You should trademark that expression and charge Gunnar and Bridgier for its use.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 9 years ago
it's just too bad that evangelicans doesn't rhyme with pelicans.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Bridgier does use some "upper level" words. I am reading a book with an essay centered on "eolithism" and had to look it up and would love to see it used in a sentence that makes sense:-) Nothing about religion..sorry, I jump-shifted. Seeking common sense help.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11978) 9 years ago
It amuses me that for YEARS the Billy Graham folks said Mormonism was a "cult" and Mormons were definitely notChristians. Rmoney met with the Senior Cracker and low! and behold! voila! The Crackers has spoken and the reference to Mormonism are gone from the Cracker website.

A Revelation!
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 9 years ago
I think "eolithic" is kind of a made up word - is this the essay you're talking about: http://secure.pdcnet.org/...e_type=pdf

Judging from the abstract, I'd say that it has to do with technology and solutions that occur via availability of in-situ materials/opportunities, as opposed to solutions that are planned for and prepared in advance. Macgyver is eolithic.

Now, as to Billy Graham - I'm pretty sure he's not calling the shots anymore in the Graham Evangelical-Industrial Complex. It's his weasel of a son, Franklin, that's running the show anymore.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (11/6/2012)]
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+3267) 9 years ago
Bridgier...That is a bit easier. Thank you. I am reading "Mind and Mechanism in Education" (1968)..by the American Engineer-novelist Hans Otto Storm. A few more adjectives:-)

Right on...it is poor old Billy's kid. I think Billy is pretty ill and has a bad case of dementia. Anyhow..."Forward"
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Posted by worldmom (+417) 9 years ago
I am a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I have never heard the phrase "lying for the Lord" in reference to my faith. I don't know much about this "Mormon wiki" site, but if this entry is representative of the other entries, I wouldn't put much stock in it.

If you want to know more about what Mitt Romney and other LDS members actually believe, consider consulting mormon.org or lds.org. I've had many mutually beneficial discussions about my church with all sorts of people, but when folks dig up their "facts" from groups and websites that are bent on discrediting us - reality be darned - it makes for a pretty difficult exchange.

I find it ironic that people argue that we're secretive and closed-off from the world. My oldest son is spending thousands of dollars of his own hard-earned money and sacrificing two years of his young life to go tell anyone who will listen about what we DO believe!

I'm no huge Romney fan, so say what you will about his leadership and political abilities (or lack thereof). But if you're going to bring the LDS Church into discussions about the presidency, I hope you'll allow us the courtesy of correcting misconceptions. We try to be decent, hardworking people who love God and our Savior, Jesus Christ. We try to show this love in our actions. I hope I always do.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 9 years ago
I am related to, and have known in my life, many outstanding examples of humanity who are of the Mormon faith. Mitt Romney's personal faith should remain just that, personal, and not subject to attack, as long as he does not allow his personal beliefs to limit the rights of American citizens. He used to claim that he could separate his own religious beliefs from his governance. I'm no longer sure of any claim he makes, as it changes daily, but let's hope, if he is elected, he sees the value in separation.

Just as Romney's faith should not be up for ridicule, past Presidents' personal faiths, whether Protestant or Catholic, should not have been subject to attack. It is unfortunate that the same courtesy was not extended to President Obama, where he was consistently, and against all logic continues to be, accused of being Muslim, something for which there is no basis, and which should be irrelevant.

I find it interesting that Billy Graham, who has spent his entire life calling Mormonism a "cult", and whose Evangelistic Association just removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults only three weeks ago, is now endorsing Mitt Romney. Apparently he should have checked out mormon.org or lds.org years ago. But that would have been too open-minded.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15082) 9 years ago
Are we to ignore the fact that ones religious views usually inform there worldview? I think not.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 9 years ago
Let's be honest. As Wendy already said, "I daresay that all religions have some really weird doctrine and all religions have less than admirable histories."

All religions have some funky, seemingly crazy foundational beliefs, which is not one bit surprising given the uneducated and superstitious natures of human beings in the eras when these religions were first developed. It does not mean that every member today, or even the majority of members, are literalists to these original views.

If we must disallow one religion from holding office, we must disallow them all, and well, that leaves Atheists, a pretty small pool from which to currently choose, though I'm sure a pool which would thrill B.A.R.
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