Cars, Motorcycles, and other things that go Brrrrrrppahhhh!
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Posted by Chad (+1765) 16 years ago
Bruce-

Only rear or mid-engine models are real Porsche's. The 924, 928, 944 series cars are okay, but the true performers are the rear and mid-engine models. Vette's are okay, but I don't know why US manufacturers can't get more out of thier engines? If Porsche can put two 3L motors together to form a 6.0 flat 12 with 100 HP per cylinder in 1971, the big three should be able to catch up by now. And if Honda can squeeze 50 mpg out of a 1.5L motor making 100 HP, why can't the big three?

It's a sad state of affairs.
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supporter
Posted by Ken Minow (+377) 16 years ago
Corvette ZO6 cost-$50,000
405 hp 0-60 4.9 seconds quarter mile ET 12.4 @ 116 mph

Porsche 911 Turbo cost- $110,000
415 hp 0-60 3.9 seconds quarter mile ET 12.3 @ 115 mph

I'd say that the American manufactorers have more than caught up.The new Shelby Mustang kicks out 500 hp for under 40 grand and it's not a glorified Volkswagon!
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Posted by Rick Goff (+73) 16 years ago
The C6 Z06 is (under)rated at 505hp, hits 60 in 3.4 seconds, does 11s in the quarter, and runs ~$70k. I'm guessing the number you posted were for the older C5 Z06 ??

Also, the current 911 Turbo (997) has 480hp, and can hit 60 in 3.2, and is upwards of $120k.

Speaking of Porsches, one of my highlights from last year was seeing Roberto Alvares run his $480k Carrera GT at the track in Lewistown. That car is unbelieveable, and he wasn't afraid to drive it
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Posted by Chad (+1765) 16 years ago
Ken,

I will agree that Gm has greatly improved the Corvette, especially since the junk they made in the 70's and 80's. It has become a very good performing car. But.... my question was why do American cars need so many cubic inches to get the horse power?

2006 Z06: 505HP/420 CI (7L) = 1.2 HP per CI

2006 911 TURBO: 480HP/216 CI = 2.2 HP per CI

I realize the turbocharger is a big difference, but even the non-turbo Carrera puts out 1.5 HP per CI.

GM and Ford ought to be able to win hands down- Like Ford did with the GT40 in the mid/late 60's. The new Ford GT is awesome, yet it produces 1.7 HP per CI.

Horsepower is only a part of the picture- factor in braking, cornering (lateral G's), mileage, and creature comfort and the picture can shift drastically.

I'd talk about Ferrari's, but they're made for shrimps- anyone over 6 ft tall has to squeeze into them. I've driven a 308, and old 246 and a '59 TestaRossa, few cars sound as cool. But I'm to darn big for them.
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founder
Posted by Rick Goff (+73) 16 years ago
Not that I put much weight in the figure, but figuring my hp/ci, it comes to 2.3. But it is Japanese. And Turbo.
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founder
Posted by Chad (+1765) 16 years ago
The way the Tuners tweak out power from those little Honda motors is crazy.

I was around some Formula One stuff a while back. It's scary what they get out of a 1.5 litre motor. They don't last long, but Honda actually applies what they learn to production cars. They burn some nasty solvents for fuel-benzene, TCE, hexene, truly nasty exhaust by-products you don't want to breathe.
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Posted by Bruce Helland (+588) 16 years ago
That is the key. They don't last long. A small engine stress to give equivilant performance has a shorter life. The replacement for displacement is forced induction. Boost a larger engine to the same level and you have much more power.

Of course there are the trade-offs of mass (recipocating and rotating). Also consider overhead valve vs. overhead cam design. One thing to note is as the Japanese have entered the truck market their engines have grown larger. Given the constrants of street driven; both engine styles give equal performance. As far as mileage mass and air resistance seem to play greater roles. I'm talking start and stop, not steady state. At steady state only a given HP is needed. Interesting to note: Large 'obsolete' Harley motors return greater mileage than 'modern' Japanese designs. Reason: lower RPM less frictional loss. Thats why cars us 5/30 oil now.
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founder
Posted by Chad (+1765) 16 years ago
This from the guy that put a turbo on his Harley? Come on Bruce. Are you telling me that when a testosterone laden man goes out and buys a car that goes 150 MPH he's thinking, "I sure hope it lasts 230,000 miles"? I don't believe longevity is in the thought process.

As for the Japanese pickups using larger engines, I think it's more a matter of perception that a pickup has to have a big engine. Americans have gotten used to big engines & big horsepower so we don't have to slow down at all going up that hill.

For pulling a 460 or 454 used to be the choice, but they're such pigs on gas! I drove a 460 to Nor Cal and back and it never did better than 5 mpg. I was broke when I got back. Today we're opting for diesels, with turbos- they're being hopped up to 500 HP and 6-700 ft/# of torque. It's nuts.
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Posted by Bruce Helland (+588) 16 years ago
I admit: Its an ego thing. Most of our lives are devoted to bigger, better, faster. The diesel thing: Early models weren't that capable of much towing capacity. (Exception, Cummins) Now the platforms are more capable. Interesting enough, the tricked out diesels dont get any better mileage than their gas counterparts. That was the diesels original selling point. No matter, I still enjoy blowing their doors off with my bike.
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supporter
Posted by john newcomer (+289) 16 years ago
How about this?
The super-sport sedan is now the most sophisticated and powerful 5 Series ever, powered by an incredibly advanced V-10 engine, with a five-liter capacity, 10 cylinders, 500-hp (SAE net) output, 383 lb-ft maximum torque, and engine speeds in excess of 8,000 rpm. The BMW M5 boasts the most innovative drive concept in its class, the best power-to-weight ratio, super-car handling, as well as luxurious appointments and outstanding everyday driving characteristics. And it's a 4 door-you can take the wifey and kids to the store and still spank poor unsuspecting vette owners in the twisties. Boy this ought to start something. Ken? Whacha say to that? huh?huh?
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supporter
Posted by Ken Minow (+377) 16 years ago
BMW's are no doubt one of the better built cars available anywhere.Unfortunately,the $82,500 starting price for the M5 puts it out of a lot of people's price range.I still stand by my original statement-for under 40K,a 500 hp Mustang is hard to beat.
As far as the horsepower vs cubic inches arguement goes,since nobody cares about fuel mileage when they're talking about these hi-perf vehicles-who cares how many cylinders they have? The bottom line is horsepower,correct?
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supporter
Posted by john newcomer (+289) 16 years ago
Yeah the price tag does kind of put a damper on things. I get the feeling the customers with them have just a tad more disposable income than us normal mortals,and quite honestly a well set up mustang would probably surprise the heck out of them.
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