and yet a very old one in many ways as well...

http://www.addictinginfo....-daughter/

[This message has been edited by howdy (2/27/2012)]

I can understand why some people are uncomfortable with the subject.

I also find it incredible that in this day and age, there are so many who still think it's a choice...

I agree KDuffy, as evidenced by the terribly high suicide rate amongst Teen Gay community...If it were a choice, obviously they would chose to not be gay and live...You are born with this and anyone that treats them as outcasts or makes fun of them is nothing but dirt IMO...or even less than dirt maybe a better word would be trash...

This is appalling but hardly surprising.

Howdy, I promise I am not trying to bully you.

With that being said, I just have to point a couple things out to you. First, I am very happy that you don't view homosexuals in a negative way. That's a big, big plus in this discussion-one that I hope you understand I recognize as I respond.

I encourage you to reread your wording on your last post. I noticed right away that you said, 'they are born with it'. 'IT' is not a disease, or a mental disorder, or faulty chromisome. All of the medical assiciations and psychology institutions around the globe have made countless statements to that affect, on numerous occasions. This fact, along with what you mentioned about the glbt teen suicide rate, I couldn't help but respond and offer my perpective on the points you made.

Since it is, of course, a FACT that there is nothing physically, mentally or emotionally wrong with this trait being present in any person, it is hard to know so many people that are in this category take their lives, before they are even old enough to understand that there are people that DO recognize that, just simply not enough. What really needs to happen is society as a WHOLE needs to learn these facts, and keep them in mind when they interact with others and speak, so that the message will be more clear to these teens that they are accepted by society-for exactly who they are, and that people are informed of the nonexistence of any shortcomings on their part because they are glbt or whatever. Even well intentioned people can very much hurt someone part of this group, just by saying things in a way which shows their lack of understanding of the real facts about it.

I would like to toss another scenario on the table. This is my question: Do you believe that the suicide rate of gltb teens is as high as it is because the individual themselves think there is something wrong with THEM? That they hate THEMSELVES because of something that is a part of them that they know must not be something that they can control? I don't think that's it. Maybe on a very limited scale this may be the case, but I doubt it.
I think some of these teens don't hate themselves at all- I think they hate the world in which they have to live, the cultural and societal attitudes about people like them make them completely miserable, and end up feeling like life is not worth living being who they know they are if they have to be subjected to the completely torturous views of that society while they continue to live.

I think suicide is a very sad way to die, and I personally get distraught over it when it does happen. I believe that sometimes it happens because of the sadness people feel with themselves, but sometimes I think there are contributing factors like this that take a person that would have had decent chances of thriving in their life and completely limits them to a level that they think they can't find anywhere, because everywhere they look there seems to be more hurtful actions and words than encouraging ones...even when looking specifically for help and positive influence. GLBT teen suicide is especially bothersome because I can't help but wonder who might have chosen differently if they were surrounded by a more streamlined view of individual differences and sensitivity of those differences.

Is it EVER a choice? Does it even matter if it is, does it change whether or not it's to be acceptable?
These are questions I would like to hear some answers on!

Is it EVER a choice? Does it even matter if it is, does it change whether or not it's to be acceptable?
These are questions I would like to hear some answers on!

Seems like you could have asked this without nitpicking at Howdy. Seems like when you write, it's like you need someone to juxtapose your thought against. I think you could be a better writer if you would take another 5 minutes and sort through and outline your response a little more throughly.

The answer to your question is no, it is not a choice. No, it does not matter even if it is, which it isn't.

I wasn't trying to nitpick- just suggesting that she recognize how she was speaking. It isn't just her, it's very common...and it's really one of those things I think everyone as a whole should come together on in saying, 'it's not you, it's me' to people that differ in sexual prefrance than from most. What's been taught to be NOT normal and NOT appropriate is in fact, a completely harmless, less common, but equally as natural as heterosexuality is.

I just wanted to point out that even when people try to say 'it's ok', sometimes they unconsciously are saying 'it's not ok'.

I apologize if it came off otherwise.

Yo AD... Capernicous called. The universe doesn't revolve around you.

Ashley Dawn,

You seem to thrive on disparaging the good intentions and good reputations of numerous people who are usually far less offensive in their posts and far more involved in their community than you. It's a shame because I usually agree with or at least see your point - but that doesn't matter because you are just so offensive.

Since you seem incapable of judging for yourself when you are being completely inappropriate, obnoxious, and off-the-wall, here's a hint. When you feel compelled to begin a post with a disclaimer that you are not bullying, that's a good indicator that you are or have been bullying. And from what I've seen, nearly all of your posts should begin with that or a similar disclaimer.

Please take the advice that several folks before me have offered you. You (not to mention MC.com) will be better for it.

Richard wrote:

Yo AD... Capernicous called. The universe doesn't revolve around you.

Richard, I've always been a visual learner. This is in tribute.



[This message has been edited by Kelly (2/29/2012)]

Dollar to a donut that video was the brainchild of an astrophysicist who is also the parent of a very egocentric child (i.e., a brat!).

Steve, I know I can come off abrasive and rude. As I have mentioned in an earlier post on a different thread I try to be very clear when I am intentionally being so, and I was trying to be very clear at the time I started my first post on this thread that I was not making my point directly at and because of one person or post, only about something very common that happens and I notice, and also happened to notice it happened on this very thread.

I also recognized the good intentions behind what I pointed out, more than once. That in itself is very respectable and deserves to be regarded as such.

You're very correct in your observation of the many more actively involved people in the community than I on many of the issues I have directly questioned or brought attention to. You're right again. That's another reason I have tried to be direct in my posts, knowing that the impact of only my words on this forum will likely be the only way I will ever make my opinion about it heard, and only with hope that maybe it will spur the curiosity, interest, or agreement with someone in the community that really can make a more influential effort-to possibly encourage them to mention it to the 'right' people if the situation presented itself, who really could do something if it was the right thing to do. The fact that im not the 'right' people, or notion that my position doesn't deserve consideration or is perceived as having little value because that is so, is really very sad. I have always hoped that mc.com would be a place that I could get my opinion heard, regardless of who I am or what I do- that's part of what made it so appealing to me when I considered posting on a topic for the first time, and ultimately why I decided to go for it, knowing that almost every 'newcomer' almost always gets promptly attacked and bullied out of the forum by all of the 'regulars'.

But I still did, because a lot of people have access to the info on here. The stupid stuff I don't really care about watching people completely slaughter the subject or truth of- but this was about suicide and glbt teens and I had to say my piece. Who knows who might read my post and afterward feel encouraged to take a closer look at their own awareness about the things I mentioned, and who knows who could benefit from that.

Im not trying to make myself out to be this big influence on all kinds of people. Im just trying to share my observations and perspectives, just like everyone else. But I do understand the influence public forums can have on topics like this, that every responsible adult forms opinions about, and then lives their lives based on those opinions, teaches their children the same, etc. etc.

MC.com can be an awful place to start a discussion for some, or to disagree with others- depending on who you are and who they are. My position on that is simply I don't give a fu**. Im saying what I think and I don't care who its to- its to everybody. Especially to those that follow the activity on here enough to know that if I were to take a more softspoken, indirect approach about what I think, I would either be ignored or pushed out if the main group of people active on here disagreed with what I think. Maybe if some of the opinions themselves posted and the people from which some of those opinions come wearnt so offensive to ME, I wouldn't bother.

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (2/29/2012)]

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (2/29/2012)]

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (2/29/2012)]

Congratulations, Ashley. You just beat my record for longest self-indulgent post. Seriously, all I was saying is that if you would refrain from attacking people, you wouldn't have to explain yourself so much - or even at all. Frankly, most people are getting tired trying to figure out if you're being intentionally mean or not. And the remainder are wondering why they should even have to....

Steve, just as you are trying to point out to me that I may unintentionally be coming off as mean, I engaged in this thread with the very same purpose. The only difference was instead of only trying to inform just one person of it, I was trying to inform anyone interested in learning more about social tolerance that may share the opinion of Howdy, which I believe to be many- at least around this area.

I'm not sure what you meant about people wondering about my intentions, but everything I post is written exactly as I feel about it. I'm not a beat around the bush kind of gal, and being more descriptive about why I have the opinions I do usually only adds to their relevence to other people as far as I'm concerned, so it doesn't bother me at all. I wish you guys had a way of knowing how many people have been on the verge of entering into discussion on the mc.com threads, but have decided not to because they saw how quickly others that try are driven away. Another thing I've mentioned: people can disagree on stuff without creating a complete war zone, and although there are certain people's posts that I take issue with more often than others, it's always because of what their recent post contained, and not the poster themself. The same people I acknowledge when I agree with and appreciate a post they furnished. Another interesting factor I should mention, too, is that they are all guilty of the same as me, regularly, to others that don't have the energy to put up a fight about it- and from what I have seen, for things far less deserving of critical response than their own opinions and beliefs on some pretty important issues. They just get away with it because of the comradary between certain people on this forum, and because frankly the stuff they say usually isn't appealing enough for people to follow closely enough to even notice when it does happen.

Whether I'm intentionally or unintentionally being mean, I try and make very clear. People unintentionally are naiive and I think it's ridiculous that they get the tolerance of others and 'waiver of liability' but I get scolded for trying to help, unable to just let it continue and be represented unquestioned, to anyone that glances at the thread and it's progression. God, if people are gonna spend a bunch of time on here, don't you think it would be nice if they learned a little about the stuff they feel is important enough to post about? That's why I have started every thread I have, and can't really see any other reason to.

Buck says 'essay for college course ending in 100'- and he is right. Consider the audience. (no, not all you regulars, I'm not calling you all dumb. The other people that silently follow the activity on this forum.) I'm sure you are all too warped to see it, but there's a whole bunch of people watching this stuff. I know I keep saying it, but it's true. Everything I might say to Howdy might be disregarded by all of you as me just being mean, but for many other people it's not, and rightfully so. Each of my responses to anyone on here are in direct response to another post, with no other association I am factoring in, of any sort. I'm self-indulgent? How about all of you for making this forum virtually unapproachable to others unless they have the luxury of knowing all of the little games constantly being played, and exactly the right time to get involved, and all of the previous thread topics and the content in them. How great it must feel to be included in something so many others fail at trying to involve themselves in.

Everything is so personal, sheesh! Here I thought we were talking about something worth a crap.

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (3/1/2012)]

D-

Try to be more concise.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (3/1/2012)]

Ashley - Obviously you think you have a mission. Just as obviously you have divided the world into two parts: MC.com "regulars" and the rest of the world. And that's where things go wrong, because those two categories don't exist anywhere except in your head. It's sad that you don't realize how much more effective you would be, and how many more allies you would have, if you would just refrain from berating people with your didatics and escape the "us(you) vs. them" dichotomy you have created.

To take the most recent example: You take Howdy to task for being intolerant of gays by twisting her supportive words into something that you think might possibly cause a young gay or lesbian to commit suicide. That was preposterous enough, but then you went on and on and on about it which did two things: it added insult to injury, and it exposed you for being completely incapable of self-awareness. Apparently the irony of you berating one person for being insensitive by being offensive yourself is beyond your comprehension. And when it is pointed out to you, you dismiss the criticism as not being important. Hopefully by now you've begun to see why this is important, but just in case you haven't, let me spell it out: You're are losing (or have lost) all credibility; People don't listen to hypocrites.

And that's a shame because, as I've said before, there are some true gems buried in the mass of your posts. Which is the only reason I've taken the time to engage you in this conversation. I think you've got good ideas, but you are your own worst enemy at getting them across to people because you seem more concerned with destroying your perceived and imaginary enemies than building bridges with those who share more in common with you than you recognize.

I encourage you to do a little self reflection because there is much truth in the old saying: When you speak about others, it reveals more about you than them.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no reward for finding the faults of other people.

Couldn't agree more Ben...Good saying...

More paragraph breaks, less words.

I agree completely. AD I start to read your posts but soon give up.
Posts should usually be short,concise and too the point if you want
them widely read.

Steve, your perception of my original post is outrageously far from it's TRUE intent, which I can confirm because I wrote it. Clear and concise. Got it?

As writer, I can tell you how the reader perceives something is what counts. You can mean one thing but if the reader takes away something completely different, you failed. It's that basic.

(grabbing the wheel and steering the car back onto the road)....

We should not be suprised at all by the behavior of this priest. It's ironic that a priest would be judgmental of someone regarding their sexual preferences; it's sad that someone who is supposed to be supportive of everyone, despite their 'sins'* would act this way; it's also sad that people in America act this way toward each other.

However, this problem of beliefs and actions will never change. We as a society can make headway and improvement. The idea can become more widely accepted, but in some people's hearts and minds, the civil rights of people are not defined by acceptance in society.

Judge Cebull is a prime example, and even more egregious!


*I use the word 'sin' above as reference to what the church believes and it's view toward 'sin'.

Ashley, could you PLEASE drop the whole passive aggressive routine? It is disruptive and getting quite old.

http://www.patheos.com/bl...eadership/

A pretty good round-up of thoughts about this. Do you think he would deny the eucharist from someone working in the rape-factory division of the RCC?

Webmaster, as long as Im not breaking any rules on this forum, I should be able to say what I think. If what I say bothers others, that's really not my problem.

Ashley, I've silently witnessed your past attacks on Howdy, Amorette, and Connie Muggli, not to mention many others. This thread was the last straw. You've now proven that you capacity for self deception is as large as your capacity for self reflection is small. It must be exhausting for you. Perhaps you should take a nice long break.

Ashley, this is the part of the story where discretion becomes the better part of valor.

Oops - too late.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (3/1/2012)]

I'm going to put a positive spin on this. I like the thought-provoking question Ashley puts forth..."Why would it matter if it was a choice?"

I know I personally spend far too much time engaging people in this conversation from the perspective that it is NOT a choice, and why I believe that to be the case. It sure simplifies matters to say it is immaterial whether or not it is a choice.

I know a lot of people who choose to work on Sundays, or who covet their neighbors' houses, cars, lives. They CHOOSE to sin.

Yet, somehow, we still allow them to marry.

This was a good point, Ashley. The rest was extraneous and had the effect of confusing the reader as to your intent.

Howdy was the first to toss attacks in my direction, Steve. I guess you missed that part. My post on this thread was not an attack to her.

By the way, I actually really like Amorette. Connie, not so much- just to clear that up.

SHUT UP!!! God you are annoying! Nobody gives 2 procreates about you or your opinion due to things you have done. Please go away.

Can we PLEASE have a conversation about the topic of this thread?

(Woops! Post deleted.)

[This message has been edited by Former (3/1/2012)]

{Helping Cory get the car back on the right track)

this article is very good and another must read...IMO all the rhetoric lately from the conservative politicians about this subject as well as racism is making all these things much worse and in Colorado, they just said the membership of the KKK is growing...How very scary...

http://taboojive.com/diss...-of-lgbts/

Awww, Larry...why'dja have to go and give AD the boot?

I know a couple of ladies who got married during that brief moment of sanity in California, before the bigots got back in control. Very nice folks. Their being married has had absolutely NO effect on my marriage. None. Which was a huge surprise, since I was given the impression by the religo-matics that a gay marriage would ruin my straight marriage.

None. Although Katy Perry and Russell Brand did do some damage.

Per her request, I'm going to give Ashley another chance to play nice.

I can't believe that of all the posts I have written, that my posts on this thread caused someone to complain to Larry about it! I just don't get it.

Nonetheless, this is my nice, tolerant face.
Miss me, guys? It was a scary moment there!

P.S. Cory, just a warning that name calling like that can get a person's posting privaleges revoked. Take it from me, I know.
Also don't post things in response to people that don't like you, even if they are nice.

What a great time to turn the convo again back to the original intent, exercising social tolerance. One two three GO!

http://slog.thestranger.c...ng-to-hell

But I'll bet she didn't use the procreate-word ONCE at that assembly - so civil, such manners, just like in the Good Old Days.

Calling someone annoying is not a MC.com sin....

So let's talk about Santorum a sec... He's way whacko about all this!

Santorum is about as unamerican as can be considering his desire to turn us into a theocracy (sp?) instead of a republic...his thoughts and opinions fly in the face of the constitution and our founding fathers as evidenced in the founding fathers thread...it is scary as well as disgusting...

http://www.portlandmercur...?oid=27714

I love this guy.

Ashley, this will be my last post to you, and even then only because some of the statements in your post above require a response.

You stated: "I can't believe that of all the posts I have written, that my posts on this thread caused someone to complain." Well, have you heard of cumulative effects. As I said earlier, your "out of left field" attack on Howdy today was the last straw - at least for me, but it came after witnessing many other unprovoked attacks.

You then warn Cody to not post things in response to people that don't like you. Well, I can't say that I like you or dislike you because I don't know you. I like some of your opinions, but the way you express them by attacking others is disturbing. So what I dislike is your behavior, and I was trying to focus on that problem - not you personally. Perhaps that is why you thought I was being "nice."

You also seem to imply that it was me who complained to Larry. Wrong. My objective was for you to grow up, not shut up.

Your last line indicates that you think that the issue we were grappling with was social tolerance - or the lack thereof. Wrong again. It was about civil discourse, and the absence of it in the majority of your posts up to this point. My guess is Larry pulled the plug on you because of your failure to pick up on that simple point. Hopefully his action taught you the lesson none of the rest of us could, and you will take advantage of the second chance he has given you. I, for one, am glad he did. Please don't waste it.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program....

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (3/1/2012)]

While Gloves is scary in his own right, In-Sanity-orum is as wing nut as they get. The REALLY scary part is the run he's made toward the nomination. I don't believe he will get there, but man, he had some strong state wins. That just shows that the public is dumb, dumb, dumb....and that the -isms are alive and well in America.

I could not believe that he got as many votes out there as he did...I was amazed...He really is looney toons, to me at least...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/0...?hpt=hp_c1

AshleyDawn and Steve: pistols at 20 paces!

Steve,
It's Cory, not Cody.

Social tolerance IS what this thread was talking about- before someone (*not this poster this time*) made it about me.

I was telling Cory that a person shouldn't disagree with another one person on this forum too often, even if that person is trying to disagree in a nice way. I was honestly teasing him, and poking fun at myself a little, too.

You said I 'Seem to imply', meaning just a hunch you have, tinged with a little paranoia. That's what it sounded like to me when you said that. I don't care if you did complain Steve, and I don't think anyone else does, either. (Other than maybe Larry, who I'm sure has better things to worry about than babysitting). I am glad that I was able to continue posting on here, especially in light of the fact that, as I already explained, my involvement in this thread was made with only pleasant regard in mind.

I did learn from getting the 'plug pulled' for a minute. I learned that when I post in reference to other people's comments, I need to stay aware of how it might be interpreted by others if it's in response to someone that I have recently shared conflict with. Just because I mean well doesn't mean others will know that, just like Amorette said. Her comment carried a very good point. Every person I have ever disagreed with about something has also made posts that I very much agree with, but difference of opinion does seem to happen more often between some than others- I think it's kind of the nature of debate, and just human nature too. Just because I find error in some people's posts more often than some other people's doesn't mean I intentionally do, I just do. Everyone is guilty of that and shouldn't have to apologize for it.

Cumulative effects and how I feel about it is something I touched on earlier when responding to you, but maybe you misunderstood that, too.

I'm afraid if I sound to others 'too nice' when acknowledging certain individuals, then people will just take it as sarcasm. These are the very reasons I try to look at other people's posts for exactly what they say each time, because once I forget to do that I will start missing out on the genuinely useful information I could learn, simply because I am holding a grudge over something completely irrelevant. It's not a perfect system, and I can say that I have noticed myself automatically thinking a post will be stupid, or taking something someone says and look at it in an irrationally negative way, being too critical than neccessary/appropraite. I really try to catch myself when I do that, and I think it could work pretty nicely for other posters if they try. I sometimes wonder how differently some threads might progress if more people tried that.

It was very hard to respond to your last comment, Steve, because I had to spend so much time trying to sort out the assumptions and how I could without unintentionally instigating even more.

Sorry, guys. Back to the discussion AGAIN and I apologize for my part in continuing to interrupt it.

I really do care about this stuff,too. Maybe after this post I can focus more on talking about that instead of me. (Yes I really just said that, and meant it.)

Ash

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (3/1/2012)]

[This message has been edited by AshleyDawn (3/2/2012)]

That's all folks!

Tolerance is just another way of saying " I put up with you because people say I should, but I still hate you."
Acceptance should be taught in schools, not tolerance.

Oh, forgot....the story in the OP, that's just messed up. I'm speechless at such a cold act.

[This message has been edited by ABE (3/2/2012)]

for ABE.

Thank you for wittingly pointing out how I was sounding. Unconsciously, of course.

Acceptance is ideal. Not just saying it, but having it.
Tolerance should be mandatory. IMO tolerance is mandatory.

I kinda make up my own rules sometimes.

'At least it's nice out, have a good one. Stay out of trouble.'

Rick Santorum blames abortion for the Social Security crisis. True fact. He said if we had more workers to support people on SSI, we would be totally kosh. But abortion kills all of those potential workers. And he said it just. like. that.

Circus show material.

Hey guys, did you read this article? Makes me sick.


http://www.addictinginfo....-daughter/

( lol, only on milescity.com can one hijack a thread by linking the original post!)

[This message has been edited by ABE (3/2/2012)]

George is so smokin hot. And smart.
This is my most favoritest post you have ever posted, Howdy.