TURNED OFF.....
Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Just venting and hoping if someone reads this and thinks twice about this...then it is worth it.

Today...I was parked in my car waiting for a friend to finish inside the bank. Parked next to me was a man and woman with four kids in the car and one baby in a car seat.

What turned me off is that both of these adults were puffing away on their cigs with the windows rolled up and all I could see was these kids in a haze of smoke.

My friend took about 10 minutes doing her banking and when she was finished they were still sitting in their car...puffing away.

I was so upset...in this day and age when we know all about second hand smoke...and these innocent little kids inhaling those same toxins just got to me....SO, before we pulled away...I got out of my car and knocked on the woman's window....she rolled down her window and I told her it was very hard for the last 10 minutes to watch these children sucking up her smoke....!!!

Well...she told me to mind my own business and rolled her window back up. Maybe most of you feel the same way...but, I was so bothered by it and after sitting there that long and watching this ingnorance...I just had to speak my peace....for those children if nothing else....and it probably own't change anything...but, I hope they at least "THINK" about it.

Thanks for letting me vent...........!
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Posted by snickers (+825) 10 years ago
Montana's Statewide Toll-Free Child Abuse Hotline 1-866-820-KIDS (1-866-820-5437)
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Yeah, report that as child abuse, they'll really appreciate it.
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Posted by Patty O. (+226) 10 years ago
Can/should this really be turned in as child abuse? There are so many children that are being physically, emotional and God forbid sexually abused. Lets not forget neglect...food, clothing, comforts of a loving home.
Should we really have family serivices out investigating someone smoking around their children? This is going to happen no matter how much we dislike it. It's not illegal, yes it's forbid in restaurants and bars, but not in your homes.
I myself am a non-smoker, but I have grown up with my family members that have smoked. It's out there no matter how much we like it.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3718) 10 years ago
You should probably take the lady's advice and mind your own business.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15076) 10 years ago
Wow... I don't like cigarette smoke and understand that it is dangerous to be around. I think that turning the parents in for smoking in there car is over-reaching just a tad. If that is the biggest injustice you can find, maybe you need a new hobby... like a dog or feral cat or something.
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Posted by Maryann McDaniel (+255) 10 years ago
Feral cats are fun...we had about 18 at our lake house....finally took control, had all females fixed and the males disappeared. Eventually found homes for the females and fixed males. It was expensive. But a sort of, kind of fun hobby! First trying to catch them, get them fixed and confine them for several days in a kennel...As one who adopted two children who had been in foster care off and on for several years, their abuse was much greater before foster care than smoke in a car.
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Posted by Skye (+386) 10 years ago
Smoking around a child is not child abuse, but im sure all of you would just love to be stuck in a car with the windows rolled up filled with cigarette smoke. Fun times!! Think about that one...then think about how those kids felt.
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Posted by snickers (+825) 10 years ago
I never said it was child abuse I just posted the number for a person concerned about some kids and a baby
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Posted by Monica LN (+142) 10 years ago
not sure if this is a state law or not but in MN it is illegal to smoke in your vehicle with children present; it coincides with smoking bans in businesses within the state. Its not something police can pull you over for I believe but like the old seat belt rule they can issue a citation for it if they stop you for something else...

And yes, however awful it is to force your children to inhale secondhand smoke I am sorry to say I do not think it constitutes as child abuse...
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Richard...I think you might be starting to like me after all...LOL!
One day I am upset with animal abuse and now I am "turned off" with that couple filling those children's lungs with smoke...!

I never once said it was ABUSE...just felt like venting and if someone else read it and thought twice about it....maybe they would step outside next time....that's all.

Snickers, I think you and I would get along great...we both have tender hearts for kids and animals...those helpless and defenseless.

And to those of you that think I should mind my own business and should not of spoke my peace...that is your opinion...but, I feel like I would of felt worse leaving the parking lot with out saying something. The couple in the car smoking were thinking of themselves and the kids did not look very happy sitting in the haze of smoke...sometimes we need to give a voice to someone who can't.

Just want to make it clear....I never used the word ABUSE...just was hard to sit and watch....thanks.
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Posted by David Schott (+17439) 10 years ago
Apparently smoking inside a car with a child present is illegal in California and a few other states.

KABC-TV L.A. Law prohibits smoking in car with kids
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Thank you, David...! Great article....appears little one's do have some rights in certain states.

I hope the couple that could not wait to smoke their cig's...or could not step outside of the car...READ this.

[This message has been edited by luvlife (11/23/2011)]
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
It's not little ones having rights, it's adults being told how to live and raise their children. Thank God you live in a state where people can smoke up a car full of kids.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15076) 10 years ago
Richard...I think you might be starting to like me after all...LOL!


I never did not like you. I like all bell cows.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Buck....NO, I would "THANK GOD" if those little kids didn't have to suck in their parents toxins...or any other little ones.
Smoke your cigs if you want...just don't expect the rest of us that don't smoke...to want to inhale your leftovers.
Thank you for your wonderful input.

Richard (my friend)...and ALL (even Buck)...
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Then I'll tell you to stop being fat or drop the caffeine or any number of things. Taking away any freedom is bad. Black and white.
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Posted by Steve Allison (+975) 10 years ago
All freedoms are a balance. My father use to tell use boys, your freedom or right to get mad and throw a punch ends at the other persons nose. Finding the balance needs to be a well thought out, greatly discussed process. The balance can also shift as new facts are discovered or public standards change. A restricted freedom that saves someone else's life may be a good idea but it needs to be discussed and balanced. This is what I find so frustrating about the current political atmosphere. Not discussing and compromising is bad for everyone.
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Posted by Tucker Bolton (+3697) 10 years ago
As a responsible adult, I am far more offended by the fact that they had five children, assuming they were all biologically theirs. (Sorry, world Mom)

As a former smoker (my bad, I know) and a proud vasectomy scared, old guy I am constantly saddened by seeing people, in need, that continue to make a bad situation worse by rampant procreation. I certainly enjoy the recreational aspects afforded to those that chose to replace themselves then stop or adopt as many as they can afford.

OK, lets see who else I can offend now that I am on a roll. Those who subscribe to the edicts of the Holy Roman church of ulterior motive, the followers of the prophet that wrote the other book, school districts that don't allow sex education or any one else that choose to keep the populace ignorant.

If you choose to turn a blind eye to reality, volunteer at your local food bank, soup kitchen or action center and pay attention. Drive through any metropolitan area area and see how many people are living on the streets. We are all connected.

Does anyone know what the Zero Population Growth rate is now? When I had my vasectomy it was 2.3 children per family.

I applaud luvlife for his concern. I find ignoring the root problem abhorrent. Parenting is a thankless job that comes with responsibilities. It doesn't come with a how to book or a prescription. It doesn't end when the child leaves home and most of all, having children, in and of itself does NOT make you a parent. Real child abuse is having children that you are not capable of feeding or caring for.

Oh well, wear a condom and smoke em if you got em.
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 10 years ago
One of the best remarks ever made on any thread, Tucker...I totally agree with every word...tips imaginary hat...
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Buck....I get what you are trying to say....I really do...in saying that....making ones self obese...or drinking to much coffee..is hurting one's self....NOT the child.

Do you see what I am saying? I hurt for the kids...thats all.

Tucker...I agree with your comment...I did want to say that in my first post...as those kids did not look very well cared for...and I know life is a struggle and people are barely getting by...I SO agree....wear a condom.

Thanks for taking on this new direction...I was going to say...they did not look like 5 kids that where happy little, carefree kids...and that bothered me, too.

OH...if only....a PERFECT world.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
You're just saying you know how people should live their lives better than they do. Seems simple.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 10 years ago
But if folks bought condoms they wouldn't be able to afford their smokes.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Is that because condoms are expensive or because they prevent child tax credits?
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 10 years ago
child tax credits are not something I agree with totally...I have seen it abused time and time again...Hard to find the compromise IMO...
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Oh Buck....why are you "bucking" me so??? LOL!

I do not want to run anyone's life what so ever! I am all for our freedoms for heaven's sake.

Just speaking up for the little kids and a baby to boot. Can't you at least see my point as far as those little one's are concerned?

Just want to make it clear to Buck...that I do NOT want to run anyone's life...do as you choose...go for it. I just know at times...kids need someone to speak up for them...as they can't.

I feel good about approaching the woman and man in the car and I guess thats all that matters.

Hey Wendy...that is a tough decision for so many out there...what should I buy this week...CIGS???...or CONDOMS??? Both cost $$$...you can get Condom's FREE from the County Health Nurse...but, that would be to easy for some. Anyway...good to add some humor to this.

I'm all done....again....GOBBLE...GOBBLE...til you wobble.
HAPPY THANSGIVING to all!
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Posted by Jaylene Tennant (+123) 10 years ago
Kudos to you luvlife! Most people, myself included would not have had the "balls" to go up to a person's window and tell them how you really feel. It may not of changed a thing by you doing that but you are right, those children can't speak for themselves. Just think of it in the sense that maybe what you said did affect that family positively.
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Posted by Skye (+386) 10 years ago
Yes Tucker because not being capable of feeding or caring for your child is child abuse! Too all the people who have lost their jobs to the falling of the economy shame on you! To all of you who can't afford rent, car payments, heat, water, food, daycare and new clothing for your child, shame on you! To all of you who ask for hand outs to provide for your child because you are not capable of feeding or caring for your child, shame on you. I think we can agree that your definition of child abuse is a little far fetched.
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Posted by mule train (+1049) 10 years ago
Being a former smoker and all....I would say it should be illegal. If not child abuse now...then it should be in the future. Don't smoke with your kids in the car. It's that simple. Poor kids.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
This is why Butch is mayor...
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3718) 10 years ago
Nobody has ever changed their parenting because they got yelled at by a stranger in a parking lot. Surely you have some problem of your own that you should be attending to instead of driving around passing judgement on people you have never met.

Did Kacey get a new account?

[This message has been edited by Levi Forman (11/23/2011)]
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
OK LEVI....I said I was done with this...but, I need to set you straight....!
#1- this is NOT Kacey and I never YELLED at these people!!!

#2- I do not drive around town looking for sick situations...I was parked in a parking lot next to a car filled with kids...one child a baby...for about 15 minutes! Both the woman and man smoked the whole time...NO windows down, cracked...the kids looked unhappy in a haze of toxic fumes!

#3- YES...I have my own issue's and I am far from perfect...BUT, this is a web site that we are able to come and converse something of what I thought was of importance. I never said it was ABUSE...just plain ingnorance!

#4- I will speak up for children ANYDAY, ANYTIME and I also take care of my own issue's and TRY to better myself...! Can't a person just try and have a intelligent conversation on here without someone wanting to pick it apart.

#5- I know NOW, why I never come on this site...it always has the same ol' people on here...ready to "INSTEAD" God forbid...help a situation...pick it apart and would rather start a fight (of sorts)!

So...I guess this would not of bothered you in the least, huh, Levi?
Maybe your just to INTO yourself to care...you spend to much time on the computer trying to create issue's...and just ignore the world around you. Do you even have children???

THANK YOU to Jaylene...she gets it...understands and has a heart.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
BUCK...what does any of this have to do with Butch being mayor???
MORE IGNORANCE!!! ....and BTW...Butch got my vote...thank you for bringing him up!

Skye...this was NOT my definition of ABUSE...do people even read???

Mule Train...I LOVE how you have a heart and can understand all I was trying to say here w/out a arguement...helping children.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
I hate to say, "I told you so..."
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Please...EXPLAIN yourself, Buck...???

If you are comparing me with the majority of people...you lose!
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
You've explained it well enough.
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Posted by Skye (+386) 10 years ago
Luvlife...learn to read, my post was CLEARLY to Tucker! Thank you! And in my opinion you were right to stick up for these kids...but dont jump on me if you yourself cant read!
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Posted by Sunny (+372) 10 years ago
Tucker,
Last I heard, population growth rate was 1.9 children per family.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Skye, I apologize to you...I did re-read your response and I see where I had misunderstood.
Thank you and I hope you have a wonderful Holiday.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
Just about every contributor to this thread made at least one good point. But you really have to sift through the excrement to find them. Luvlife brought up a real-life situation that presented a difficult choice for any responsible person witnessing it (speak up on behalf of the kids/remain silent and MYOB). Luvlife chose to act, but then asked what others would have done. It's too bad people didn't respond in the spirit of that question instead of passing judgment and getting all verklempt.

I personally think that Luvlife did the right thing given the evidence of how harmful secondhand smoke is, and I hope I would have had the gumption to do the same thing in the same situation.

While I wouldn't categorize the situation as abusive, the adults were certainly being irresponsible and and exposing their children to an easily avoidable risk. In other words, they were being stupid and needed educatin' by somebody - and Luvlife was that somebody. Although the "adults" in that car reacted defensively, the probability that they will act more responsibly in the future is now much higher because of Luvlife's interaction with them.

What Luvlife did was act on behalf of children who couldn't speak for themselves. Well done, Luvlife! <pat on the back>

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/24/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago

One of the best remarks ever made on any thread, Tucker...I totally agree with every word...tips imaginary hat...


Actually, think Steve Allison's remarks is - if not the best, then at least the wisest comment. We, as Americans, should all heed the advice he offers.

As for Buck's point, overeating and drinking caffiene are "punches" that don't reach other people's noses, whereas smoking not only literally punches them in the nose, but in their lungs as well. And it isn't fair or responsible of adults to place children in a situation where their right (and NEED) to breathe clean air is taken away.
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 10 years ago
After reading Steve Allisons post, have to agree...I am quite guilty of only reading a few responses and not the entire thread...thanks for correcting me Steve....tips hat again...:-)
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Posted by Dona Stebbins (+825) 10 years ago
I probably would have knocked on the window - when they rolled it down, I would have activated my hand-held fire extinguisher and evacuated the children. But that's just me...
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
Howdy Howdy! I wasn't correcting you, dear. Only offering a different opinion. I liked Tucker's comment, too - but then again, I tend to like everything about Tucker.

To Tucker: I miss ya, Big Guy. Have you learned to play the banjo yet?

And Dona, what a great idea (assuming you are able to get the kids out of the car first). I would pay to see a first class act like that!
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 10 years ago
I didn't mean that in a bad way, Steve...Just was yakkin and it came out that way...but thanks for showing me the other post...
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Posted by Wayne White (+261) 10 years ago
So there were 7 people in the car or six, wonder if they all had seat belts, and car seats if Mt has the same laws as Co.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Gonna have to disagree, Steve. You think fatty serves her kids white meat chicken while she has a #4 from Micky D's? Start with smokes and it will never end. Sure, give the parents a piece of your mind, but only do it if you are dead certain you are better parent/person because it's likely you don't know half the story. The non-smoker in the car next door beats the poop out of his kids, but not publicly.
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
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Posted by Dona Stebbins (+825) 10 years ago
It is obvious she is consuming far more than her share of the world's calories, and she yells at you? Begone, wench!
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15076) 10 years ago
If she hangs around that diesel pickup much longer with her mouth open she'll get "nox'd" up.
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Posted by David Schott (+17439) 10 years ago
Is it just coincidence that there appears to be not one but two Toyota Prius's parked next to that idling diesel?

Anyhow, that confrontation reminds of a live-and-in-person example of what transpires here on milescity.com on a daily basis.
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Posted by tammy auvil (+143) 10 years ago
I am a smoker I have been trying to quit for years now, when we moved to miles city ourlandlord. Said no smoking in house I said ok and it has helped I now have a smoke free house and even if its 10* degrees out I am still outside smoking I like it alot better smoking outside cause my house doesn't stink .and when me and my family go in the car and I need a ciggerate I roll down the window. I m not bragging but not all smokers are ignorant. I do care about my children and I pray I can quit soon
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Posted by cyndie (+346) 10 years ago
Tammy, Go to the web site - becomeanex.org. Give it a try. AWESOME site!!!
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Dear Buck-
Rest assured...I AM a better parent!
I would not accept my children to breathe in someone else's smoke and I would hope if the situation was reversed...someone would of told me how hard it was to watch the kids in a haze of toxic fumes.

I DO NOT beat my children and if I did not give a crap about kids I would not of politely told the lady how much it bothered me to see these little children in the car w/out a window cracked for the 15 minutes I sat there and watched....TURNED OFF!

I did not yell at the woman...just kindly spoke up for the children.
I am now convinced you just like to argue...as your last post made no sense what so ever.

Lastly...thank you to Steve Craddock for understanding and being a intelligent individual. These could of been anyone's children...I kindly spoke up for them and (in hopes) that someone would do the same for my children.

Thank you.
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
I really hate to bash religion (again), but I sort of feel this way when I hear parents say that their baby or small child is a Christian, or an atheist, or a Muslim. It's akin to this situation because the parents make decisions for their children, before the children can actually decide for themselves. Children should be allowed to decide by themselves when they are a worthy age, and until that time they shouldn't be called as their parents are.

When parents set their opinions onto their children, it undermines the children's sense of free will.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
John...while I appreciate your will to voice a opinion...just wondering what you said had to do with this post???

Thank you.
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
Rest assured lady, if you continue your holier than thou crusade of knocking on car windows to express your righteous indignation at someone else's actions, you will likely attain the martyrdom you apparently seek.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Be Rest Assured...Mr Roberts...I will continue to speak up for little children that do not have a voice.

What have I said that makes me sound "HOLY"??? I think if I were you I would use a different word...maybe...SENSIBLE!!!

Thank you.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6114) 10 years ago
"Holy" might not be the right word, but I certainly think that "sanctimonious" might be apt. Even if your heart is in the right place, luvlife, you've come across as Maude Flanders in this thread.



[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/28/2011)]
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
I didn't say that you sounded holy, I said that you have a "holier than thou" attitude.

I question you motives. I don't think that you started this thread to stimulate conversation about smoking around kids. Looks to me like you wanted a pat on the back and will argue your way to hell and back to get it.

You posted about a supposed act of bravery while hiding behind a pseudonym. I wonder if it really happened anyhow.

This week it's kids around smoke, next week we'll be back to feral cats, and you'll still be trying to tell me what words to use because as we all know, you're perfect and you know what's best for everyone.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
I'm sure she's as flawless as the woman in your video, Dave.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (11/28/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
Hey Buck. Not the first time we've disagreed, and I'm happy to leave it at that. BUT - if your neighbor really is beating his kids in private and out of sight, but you somehow know about it and you haven't done anything... well then, in my eyes you're nearly as guilty as him.

Dave R - WOW! You are taking some wild leaps there. It's fair game to question Luvlife's motives I suppose, but to accuse her of fabricating this just to get attention is somewhat over the top.

When I look back over this thread, it's funny how the ones accusing Luvlife of being sanctimonious are the same ones who see themselves as being 100% in-the-right.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 10 years ago
When I look back over this thread, it's funny how the ones accusing Luvlife of being sanctimonious are the same ones who see themselves as being 100% in-the-right.



It sure is ridiculous, Steve. Everyone knows that I'm the only one who's 100% right all the time.
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
Think about it Steve.

1- Out of the blue, she approached a car full of strangers, one of whom was an adult male, and knocks on the window.

Really? Was this a meek and dainty guy? Is luvlife packin' brass gonads? Has someone's cheese slid?

2- She told the adult female her opinion that was contrary to the occupants apparent modus operandi and was told to "mind my own business".

Really? Has Miles City gotten that tame? Did no one tell her where to stick her opinion and exactly how high to shove it? Where was the guy again? They'll smoke around kids but won't yell or swear?

3- Posts about it in Shipleyesque style complete with a melodramatic "OH...if only....a PERFECT world."

Really? I want to puke.

Real life scenario for you- I'm sitting in my truck smoking. A stranger (not wearing a badge) approaches my window. They get glared at by a very large man.

They knock on my window. They get asked "WTF do you want!?" and can hear me quite well through the window.

If they insist that I open the window, I open the door and if I haven't knocked them ass-end over tea kettle with the door, ask again "WTF do you want!?" while moving toward them like I'm about to do something really harmful to their person-

You see where I'm going here?

I don't buy it.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Mr. Roberts...what I did was not a "act of bravery"...nor did I post it to get a "pat on the back".
I posted this to raise awareness. I am not trying to save the world..or trying to tell anyone how to live...where did that come from out of this post, anyway?
If I "REALLY" wanted a big "high five"....I would post my real name. I am new to Miles City and I work at a place where I would rather keep my name anonoymous....as do many here.
Yes...you ususally find me replying to "kids and animal posts"...they are both defenseless and this is where my heart is...!
I understand the few that are trying to keep me going (rattled)...and I am just going to put this to a end....in hopes that if someone thought twice about it...then it was worth posting.
Thank you to Steve Craddock...you see my real heart in all of this.
Thank you.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Apparently Mr Roberts...you are a weak person.

I sat in a bank parking lot with I would say 3 cars around me...I waited for my friend to finish banking (about 15 min) to get back in the car.
I watched this go on for 15 min....I will TRY and be NICE about this.
The man (looked about 20 and not much on the ball)
The woman (about the same age)...had a baby next to her and they both kept blowing it right toward the child.
The small children in the back...looked UNHAPPY to say the least.

When my friend returned...I was so irrate at the ignorance of these people and was ill just thinking of those small children and I could NOT say anything and look the other way.

I politely knocked on her window and said that for 15 min I had been watching this and I felt bad for the little one's inhaling the leftover smoke.

If nothing else...I hope they thought about it...I don't think what I did was a "HEROIC" act or anything of the sorts...nor did I run down a bunch of hoodlems...it wasn't a SCARY thing...!!!

If you think this is false...why must you keep on and on...you said it...you don't care about a thing I have said...you don't sound like the sharpest knife in the drawer...and you probably smoke and are offended by my post...GROW UP!
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6114) 10 years ago
You are the World's Greatest Person, luvlife.

There, are you happy? Can we be done?

Or do we need to turn this thread into Family Ways of Upbringing, pt. 2?
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
Done deal, Brian...!

I think you and I could really be great friends...nice chatting with you tonight.

No one is ever going to see eye to eye...oh, if only a perfect world!
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 10 years ago
Newborn Mesmerized by Smoke Rings*



*From The Onion
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6114) 10 years ago
Atta boy, Bob!
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
You can repeat your story 'till your blue in the face, I don't believe it.

You can call me stupid, ignorant, rednecked, whatever else your little heart desires. Hide behind religion, children, animals, name it, it doesn't matter and won't change the fact that you claim to have put your nose in someone else's business.

Just read the other thread and know what's going on now. I'm autistic so it takes me a bit to understand people.

We'll probably never get along.
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Posted by luvlife (+291) 10 years ago
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
(quotes here aren't in exact sequence)

DR: "See where I'm going here?"

SC: Nope, I really can't follow your line of logic at all, mainly because your basic premise is faulty.

DR: "I'm autistic..."

SC: Oh, well, I must admit I didn't see that coming, but it does explain a lot --- that is, assuming it's true and you aren't pulling the same trick you suspect of LuvLife. And that wouldn't surprise me because one thing I've learned in life is that suspicious people are usually suspicious because they are capable of quite a bit of treachery themselves.

DR: "Has someone's cheese slid?"

SC: I think you'll find your answer in the question.
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
Posted by:luvlife

John...while I appreciate your will to voice a opinion...just wondering what you said had to do with this post???

Thank you.


It deals in relation to the conversation because parents making decisions for children before they are old enough to make those decisions for themselves is... I almost called it abuse, but in some cases I wouldn't go that far. In this particular situation yes I think that would be child abuse. If in the future those children decide they want to smoke then that's fine, but the parents making the decision of forcing the children to breath second hand smoke is abusive and dangerous.

I was only making an analogy on how parents labeling children with the parents' religious group or perhaps a political party undermines a child's free will just like smoking in a vehicle with your children inside, to a lesser extent of course.

Make sense?
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
I've spent most of my life studying interactions to at least try to emulate societal norms and not stick out like a sore thumb. I don't always succeed, but I do pretty well. Now you're telling me that it's acceptable behavior to accost strangers? Wow, if I'd known that...

Fight or Flight is a pretty universal instinct. My wife said that the mother would be more formidable than the dad, so I was probably off there. That was my basic premise, that I am by nature, hard wired to the fight response and figured that the father would be too. Then again, the gal in the video I posted got off easy as far as I can see. I know that I have a much shorter fuse than the dad in it.

Is there some special circumstance I'm not reading in this situation? It does happen. A lot. Is there a badge, a habit (nun), a halo, or another of those blanket Christianity / fundie / tree-hugger / pick-a-militant immunity clauses that I'll never grep?

I seriously can't wrap my brain around it.

I can't fathom condoning it either.

All I can interpret from this is that instead of calling the cops, or CPS, or whatever authority would handle her complaint, she took it upon herself to wield her own authority, or Jesus' authority, or the Sky Wizard's, help me out here, who gave what authority to whom?

You know as well as I do that there are a lot of bad people out there and if she thinks that she can preach (it's what she did, just from a different bible) at all of them and get away with it, maybe "martyrdom" was the best word I've come up with yet.

[This message has been edited by Dave Roberts (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
In a situation where someone is in danger, social norms are swept aside. These children were not in immediate danger, but they were definitely being exposed to a harmful substance. It may have been socially unacceptable to tell others how to raise their children, but social barriers are less important than safety. Actions are more important than beliefs.
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
You do know that many of us over 30 grew up with parents and grandparents that smoked? Back when restaurants had smoking sections, and bars were all smoking, cars all came with ashtrays, planes had smoking sections in the back?

This is some life shattering incident of kids inhaling second hand smoke that's going to ruin their lives?

You're going bypass social norms and risk what could blow up into a really bad scene to ram a sermon down their throats?

[This message has been edited by Dave Roberts (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by Bob L. (+5100) 10 years ago
My parents smoked in the car all the time, and I turned out just fine!
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
So did mine, and so did I. However, if you think that "not causing a scene" is more important than the the potential harms of the situation, then we're not going to convince each other of our views.
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
These children were not in immediate danger, but they were definitely being exposed to a harmful substance. It may have been socially unacceptable to tell others how to raise their children, but social barriers are less important than safety. Actions are more important than beliefs


Kids are exposed to hazardous hydrocarbons every time you gas your car, or drive by refineries, or eat chili. Can I get an amen!

Kids are exposed to hazardous lead when you take them fishing, or shooting. Oh lawdy! That's even worse!

Kids eat more hydrogenated, high-fructose, synthetic crap now than we ever did and have all of a sudden discovered allergies to things that were unheard of 20 years ago. Is it time to say hallelujah yet?

We used to ride our bikes without dressing like football players and learned right quickly what happens when you make stupid moves and bleed because of it. Definitely hallelujah time now!

No, we're too stupid to grow and learn and experience on our own. Let's legislate the poop out of it and play self proclaimed activist until they get more laws passed.

Ever wonder if maybe the $DIETY many profess belief in looks down and sees some of the really stupid situations people get themselves into and says to himself "You know what? Darwin had a point"
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
Kids are exposed to hazardous hydrocarbons every time you gas your car, or drive by refineries, or eat chili. Can I get an amen!

Kids are exposed to hazardous lead when you take them fishing, or shooting. Oh lawdy! That's even worse!

Kids eat more hydrogenated, high-fructose, synthetic crap now than we ever did and have all of a sudden discovered allergies to things that were unheard of 20 years ago. Is it time to say hallelujah yet?

We used to ride our bikes without dressing like football players and learned right quickly what happens when you make stupid moves and bleed because of it. Definitely hallelujah time now!

No, we're too stupid to grow and learn and experience on our own. Let's legislate the poop out of it and play self proclaimed activist until they get more laws passed.

Ever wonder if maybe the $DIETY many profess belief in looks down and sees some of the really stupid situations people get themselves into and says to himself "You know what? Darwin had a point"


I have to say you're an idiot. The analogies you have made in that atrocity above this text make absolutely no sense whatsoever. How is it again that fishing and being exposed to lead is akin to smoking in the car with the windows rolled up? In your idiocy, you seem to think that somehow, because you did things as a child that have the possibility of being harmful, that these experiences somehow relate to the one at hand, which they most certainly do not.

I'll analyze that first analogy you made to make my point.

You compare smoking in a car with the windows rolled down to fishing. The only possible correlation that connects these two is that they both involve potentially hazardous materials. The differences? I'll go through them slowly so your mind can fully wrap itself around the concept.

First of all, in comparison to the amount of lead exposed while fishing, and the danger of lead compared to smoke and nicotine, I really think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The poisonous capabilities of cigarette smoke filling a car with children inside far out way the danger of lead poisoning while fishing, I assure you.

And on that point, the two situations aren't even similar beyond that. A parent chooses to smoke in the car, thus exposing their children to second hand smoke.

Recreational fishing is completely different. What you're saying is that enjoying things sometimes takes risk, which I agree with. However, how can this possibly correlate with smoking? Is the smoke fun to breath just as children enjoy fishing?

I find everything you typed to be completely ridiculous, an utter waste of time, and an ignorant moron's shotty attempt to defend something completely unworthy of defending; The reason for which, I can only speculate.

P.S. What the hell does Darwin or A Deity have anything to doe with this? That's completely irrelevant and incoherent at best.

[This message has been edited by John W. Lennon (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by Dave Roberts (+1511) 10 years ago
I'm just pointing out other hazards for you and others to preach about. You're free to buck societal norms, and to risk injury or worse to do so. Just like you're free to smoke in your car around kids and have a nutjob preach at you about it.

The Darwin crack was pointing out a bit of irony in your jumping on the preaching from a different bible bandwagon. I can explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
I'm just pointing out other hazards for you and others to preach about. You're free to buck societal norms, and to risk injury or worse to do so. Just like you're free to smoke in your car around kids and have a nutjob preach at you about it.

The Darwin crack was pointing out a bit of irony in your jumping on the preaching from a different bible bandwagon. I can explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.


Please, explain the "preaching from a different bible bandwagon". I'm interested to know.
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Posted by SeptyTwo (+667) 10 years ago
how about keeping this thread ON topic?

John, you have started the other thread where your last question is more suited....

His last line in the list DOES NOT go off topic, I am sure most people would understand it but now since you posted in this thread with that question you are THISCLOSE to exposing yourself as just a little troll...

So you cannot grasp or understand what Dave Roberts listed in his post? Lol... Dude... (is that better?) dude... then it seems like you were not born in that time, which was only about 30 - 40 years ago... and you just made yourself look like another of those "I'm from the 90's, grew up in the '00's and now I know EVERYTHING better than anybody older than me"

If I'm wrong about your age and wisdom.. then.. I'm sorry...

for you

Pardon my grammar and spelling and my lack of eloquence of stating my point, but.. dude... please.. dont hijack this thread.. you have a perfectly suitable thread over THAR------>
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Posted by John W. Lennon (+20) 10 years ago
That's actually saddened me quite a bit. No, I am not a troll. Yes, I did grow up in the 90's and 00's, I won't lie. But just because I'm younger in no way does that make my opinion any more valid than mine or his. I respect his opinion, and I can actually understand it, I just don't agree. And no, I do "assume that I know everything better than anyone older than me". Nor do I assume that someone who is older knows everything better. I am however, fairly insulted by your assumption that I am only disagreeing because I am younger, and then apologize later for it, but only if I'm not from the generation you insulted. As if it's perfectly okay to insult people whose views are different than you as long as they're from a younger generation.

Anyway, like you said I was getting off topic, but I do believe I've said everything I can that is on topic in this thread. I do hope in the future you consider someone's argument on it's content, not the giver's age.

Edit- I'm heartily confused as to how what I've said here has anything to do with the thread I created, but I suppose that's a conversation for another thread as well.

[This message has been edited by John W. Lennon (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by SeptyTwo (+667) 10 years ago
I am however, fairly insulted by your assumption that I am only disagreeing because I am younger, and then apologize later for it, but only if I'm not from the generation you insulted.


Context.. I didn't apologize for anything



As if it's perfectly okay to insult people whose views are different than you as long as they're from a younger generation.


If you took that as an insult.. well... grow up... Context yet again... not once did I state what my beliefs are or are not or what my views may be



Anyway, like you said I was getting off topic, but I do believe I've said everything I can that is on topic in this thread. I do hope in the future you consider someone's argument on it's content, not the giver's age.


Context again...



Edit- I'm heartily confused as to how what I've said here has anything to do with the thread I created, but I suppose that's a conversation for another thread as well.


You seem to be confused a lot...


But I think you got what you wanted... at least in this thread.. let's see if you get what you want in the food bank thread
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Hey Buck. Not the first time we've disagreed, and I'm happy to leave it at that. BUT - if your neighbor really is beating his kids in private and out of sight, but you somehow know about it and you haven't done anything... well then, in my eyes you're nearly as guilty as him.


Steve, you used to be pretty good at getting the point...

1. Impossible to know what goes on behind closed doors (if smoking is the worst of it then the world is a great place)
2. In Montana, don't expect to be congratulated for butting into someone's business (this applies most everywhere, but especially Montana)
3. The woman in Dave's video is luvlife
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Posted by SeptyTwo (+667) 10 years ago
soup kitchen thread.. not the food bank thread...


oops...
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Posted by mule train (+1049) 10 years ago
There would be no scene if it were a law. Don't smoke in the car with your kids. You can't smoke in a bar. You can't smoke in a restaurant. You can't smoke near the entry to a public building. So why in the f#ck should you be able to smoke in a car with kids? Common f$cking sense.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 10 years ago
The world would be a much better place if Generation X could just fix the problems given to us by The Greatest Generation and The Boomers without having to listen to a bunch of lip from the Millenials.

All you other cohorts can eat a bag of salted dicks - you've either had your turn at the wheel, or can wait another 15 years.

That's all.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
There would be no scene if it were a law. Don't smoke in the car with your kids. You can't smoke in a bar. You can't smoke in a restaurant. You can't smoke near the entry to a public building. So why in the f#ck should you be able to smoke in a car with kids? Common f$cking sense.


Please tell me you don't teach history.
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Posted by mule train (+1049) 10 years ago
I don't
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Posted by mule train (+1049) 10 years ago
Please don't tell me you're a bobcat fan.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
That all depends on what happens Nov. 3
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
To all of you who are justifying smoking in a car with kids with the windows rolled up because your parents did it to you, here's a different take on it:

My father smoked in the car when I was a kid (back in the 60s), and in the winter the windows were usually rolled up. All through my childhood we thought I was prone to motion sickness because when we'd go on long trips I'd always get nauseated to the point of vomiting and then suffer horrible headaches.

It took several years to figure out I had no problem with motion -- I was simply allergic to smoke (and I avoid smoke-filled rooms to this day because of it). I would have been spared a LOT of misery had we figured that out sooner. I'm sure my Dad would have stopped smoking in the car if he'd had ANY idea that was causing the problem.

And it wasn't just me. I've talked to many of my contemporaties who suffered the same thing back before the phrase "secondhand smoke" had been coined. If it was a common allergy back then, and I'm sure it still is - maybe even more so given the higher rates of various maladies that kids have in these modern times.

The point is, now we know the problems that secondhand smoke causes, there is no excuse for subjecting kids to that kind of misery.

And LuvLife didn't cause a scene. The smokers in the car did by being immature and reacting defensively (big surprise there). Good parents should be grateful whenever someone shows concern for their kids - even if it is a tad embarrassing at the moment.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 10 years ago
Does smoking cause cancer? Does secondhand smoke cause cancer? Should you be allowed to harm the health of of your child simply because he or she is your child? The answer to two of these questions is already known, so perhaps we should talk about the third one.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
We should probably make another law to find that out... and make sure to leave the door open (literally and figuratively) so the authorities can see if you're hotboxing in the house.

It's not healthy to smoke around kids. People are stupid and do it, anyway. Sure, tell people you see not to do it (you look like the lady in the video, but go for it), but for God sake we don't need another law. It was screwed and un-American to tell tavern owners how to run their business, sure it made a lot of people happy, but it's procreateed. Go read howdy's Ben Franklin quote in the latest "Obama blew it" thread.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
At the heart of Bridgier's third question is yet another question:

Are children "private property" or "human beings"?

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/29/2011)]
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
Once we've eliminated the need to make decisions for ourselves, will we be human beings or public property?
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Posted by Cheryl Pieters (+480) 10 years ago
I think making decisions for ourselves is one thing, but your children will have to live with the decisions you make for them. Maybe people smoke around their children because they don't realize the lifelong effects smoking will have on their health. SIDS is also attributed to smoking around babies in large part. I applaud people that at least try to stand up for the little kids who are passive smokers because their parents don't know any better (or at least one would hope that's why they do it)
http://www.emro.who.int/P...moking.pdf

On another note, seeing pregnant women smoke is a whole 'nother topic:



Finally, for those of you that cannot stop smoking because you NEED the nicotine in order to function, there are elecronic cigarettes that have just as much nicotine without all of the carcinogenic tars and smoke. They cost about the same as regular cigarettes and do not release dangerous smoke into the air to scar your children's lungs or make your home and car smell like smoke. I suppose only time will tell as to whether or not people that switch to these can forgo COPD or Lung Cancer, but at the very least you have cut out the dangerous exhaled smoke and tars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w..._cigarette
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
Gee Buck, you've strongly argued against LuvLife's doing what she believed was the RIGHT thing to do, and then you've told her to mind her own business. Isn't that akin to taking away her right to make her own decision?

Isn't it true that whenever we discuss what rules we are going to use to be able to live in close proximity to one another, aren't we of necessity determining and agreeing to certain limits on our individual freedom?

And isn't giving one individual total freedom the same thing as limiting the freedoms of those around that person? In fact, isn't that another word for tyranny?

One final question: Did you make that last post with tongue-in-cheek? It's sometimes hard for me to tell.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4454) 10 years ago
The difference between total freedom and being nannied is a little more than splitting hairs. This is a simple difference of opinion and regardless of how wrong it is to not see that this is another example of the problem with everything, it's clear the rational among us are going to have to deal with it.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3718) 10 years ago
I would just like to say that I couldn't be more bored with this thread. Nothing in the last 50 posts is any different than what was in the first 50, we're just using more words to say the same thing over and over.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2737) 10 years ago
Nobody's forcing you...

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/30/2011)]
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Posted by hat_3275 (+70) 10 years ago
Maybe you could try minding your own business!!!
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 10 years ago
Drat! I thought this may be an update reporting the children involved in the original post had been diagnosed with lung cancer.
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