It's not 'class warfare,' it's Christianity
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
This article does a wonderful job of articulating something that been on my mind for a while. Enjoy.


Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor, Chicago Theological Seminary
http://www.washingtonpost..._blog.html

President Obama just drew the economic battlelines more clearly in his call to raise $1.5 trillion in new revenue primarily through increased taxes on the wealthy, letting the Bush tax cuts expire, and closing tax loopholes.

"Class warfare!" countered the Republicans.

Americans sharing more equally in the burden of pulling our country out of massive debt, and using tax revenue to stimulate the economy and create jobs isn't "class warfare," it's actually Christianity.
Many Christians are starting to find the increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of a few very rich people to be an enormous moral and ethical problem. Catholic theologians and ethicists took pains recently to challenge Speaker Boehner on Catholic values in regard to his views, particularly on the economy.

But not all Christians agree with those perspectives. Today, not only is economics a political battleground, it is a faith battleground particularly in Christianity. According to some Christian conservatives, unregulated capitalism, with all its inherent inequalities of wealth, is God's plan.
"Christian Captialism" in their view, isn't an oxymoron, it's God's will as revealed in the Bible. God wants you to own property and make money, and if some make a lot more money than others, that's okay. In fact, it's God's will too.

These competing views are very influential in our current public debates. The Christian conservative viewpoint, however, has been more instrumental in shaping our political shift to the right in recent years, not only on social issues, but also on economic issues. You can see this display in the "God Hates Taxes" signs carried at Tea Party rallies.

Let me be clear as I can be. We need to understand the so-called "Christian" underpinnings of the anti-tax, anti-government, anti-the-poor, "let him die" approach to economics and public policy today as completely un-Christian, as well as un-American. What we need to do is re-establish our national values of fairness, equality and opportunity for all, values that I believe are actually the core of the Christian faith, (as well as of other religious traditions and of humanist values).

First, in order to do that, we need to understand how we got to the place where the "ownership of private property" and amassing wealth is accepted by many as the "biblical perspective," and taking care of each other through shared sacrifice, is dismissed as secular humanism. Nothing against humanists here, but the Bible is all about taking care of each other, including taking care of each other by sharing what we have, not through amassing wealth.

Part of the way we got here is by Christian conservatives ignoring a lot of what the Bible says on wealth and poverty, and being highly selective in what they call "biblical." In all these reference to the "Bible," the self-styled Christian capitalists don't ever seem to recall that in the Book of Acts, the early disciples "shared all things in common." As I wrote for On Faith, the early church is Glenn Beck's worst nightmare because it was socialist.

This is what the Bible actually says about the economic practices of Jesus' followers: "Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need." Acts 4:32-35.
Glenn Beck's attacks on the Reverend Jim Wallis, an evangelical Christian who works on poverty issues from a biblical perspective, is illustrative of the need of the far right to discredit biblically based anti-poverty political work.

But as I, and Jim Wallis and others have shown over and over and over, the biblical practices on justice for the poor are far more radically egalitarian than anything being proposed in terms of economics today by Democrats.

Not only do we need to understand that "Christian Capitalism" isn't Christian, we need to understand how it is distorting capitalism. The "ultracapitalism" of people like Speaker Boehner and Paul Ryan (among others) is often called "market fundamentalism" and it is the nearly unshakeable faith held by its true believers that the best economic results are obtained when the market is allowed to function without the restraints of regulation. Just reduce taxes and let the "job creators" do their thing. Remember "trickle down economics" from the Reagan years? This is the belief system that launched the Reagan Revolution in the U.S. and started the decades long reduction in real wages of the American middle class and the rise in American poverty levels.

"Market fundamentalism" isn't good, it's the economic theory that is rotten to its core, and, as Kevin Phillips argues, "bad" for our economy. Phillips, in his book Bad Money: Reckless Finance, Failed Politics, and the Global Crisis of American Capitalism shows exactly how it is that the Christian conservative view that unregulated capitalism is God's will props up, or enables, the bad economic theory of unfettered, "reckless" capitalism. In his book, Phillips connects the dots on how conservative religion and market fundamentalism mutually reinforce one another, to the great detriment of the country and the world. He calls Christian fundamentalism the "enabler" of market fundamentalism and shows how conservative Christianity provided the cultural shift necessary so that ordinary Americans would become anesthetized to their previous suspicion of unregulated capitalism born in the 1930's.

Phillips observes that the complete breakdown in the United States these days of realistic thinking about how markets and financial systems actually do work has three sources: "homage to financial assets,.market efficiency" and "evangelical, fundamentalist, and Pentecostal Christianity, infused with a millennial preoccupation with terrorism, evil, and Islam." These are the three legs of the stool that caused the "de facto anesthetizing, over the last twenty years, of onetime populist southern and western" regions. It should be noted that these are the same sections of the country that are demographically the regions with the highest Tea Party concentration, especially the South.

"Anesthetizing" is a great metaphor for what's happening in our public square about the economy because you have to be nearly unconscious not to realize that "Christian capitalism" is neither good Christianity nor good capitalism. It's not "Christian" because it ignores the central teachings of Jesus on the moral imperative of taking care of the poor in the Sermon on the Mount, and it dismisses the actual economic practice of the disciples as described in the Book of Acts.

It is also lousy capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit in a competive market. The capitalist system relies on self-interest, not "stewardship" to actually run. Theories of markets actually assume that people will act according to their self-interest and not from a disinterested love of others.
This has been known for a very long time. In 1776, Adam Smith, sometimes considered the "father" of modern economics, related human nature and how markets work. "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the bakers that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantage."

Capitalism isn't "God's Plan," it's an economic system that runs on the human desire for more, our own self-interest. This is not necessarily evil. It can actually be a very productive system, but it is not beneficent. In order for there to be good values in our economic life, capitalism needs to be regulated so it does not wreck the whole ship with unfettered greed (as happened in the banking industry starting in 2008), and it needs to be supplemented with social safety nets and tax policy to achieve an approximate (not absolute) "freedom from want" as in Franklin Roosevelt's wonderful phrase. It was Roosevelt who translated "freedom from want" into a series of government programs to make it a reality such as Social Security, unemployment insurance, aid to dependent children, the minimum wage, housing, stock market regulation, and federal deposit insurance for banks.

The Christian approach to economics is to be the conscience of the nation and to insist that we regulate capitalism so it does not become reckless and destructive. Christians must call on the nation's politicians to have us share the burdens and the sacrifices, as President Obama is doing, in order get to the "freedom from want" that is in our democratic values and our faith values.

We do this because the Christian conscience is driven by duty to "love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself."

That's in the Bible. Luke 10:27. Look it up.
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 10 years ago
Excellent article Richard. Thanks for sharing.
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Posted by Cory Cutting (+1272) 10 years ago
You know who else ignores parts of the "bible" to suit their own brand of the world?????

TERRORISTS!

Anyone who is a student of terrorism knows that "radical Muslims" do this.

I believe we should refer to the extreme Republicans not as Tea Party members, but as

REPUBLICAN TERRORISTS.
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Posted by Glenn Shelhamer (+83) 10 years ago
There aren't enough "rich" people in our country to save America from tanking like Greece, if ignorant freeloaders continue to be spoon feed with entitlements like every failing social democracy in Europe continues to do. .

This Government is breaking a law just as cruel as gravity: "We can't spend more then we bring in." The answer isn't stealing from the rich to give to the poor. It's to help wean the millions of social vampires from living off the blood of the disapearing ranks of thoses of us still honorable enough to get up every day and go to work.

Enough already.
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Posted by Mary1 (+158) 10 years ago
entitlements: this does not mean what you think it does because social security into which people paid is an entitlement as are VA benefits and I know that my veteran friends paid for their benefits too many with their bodies and their minds. If you mean welfare than use that term.

However you can't get money from poor people and you can't make them un-poor just because you take away any aid they get for their families. Tell me a plan you have to get these people back in the work force (seeing as we have no jobs for them in many communities) and back into a position to pay taxes. We have given corporations tax breaks for years and we don't have new jobs, they ship them overseas...so tell me your plan because I don't have one.
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Posted by Glenn Shelhamer (+83) 10 years ago
Well for one.....lets throw out the entire quagmire of current US tax codes, and install in it's place a national sales tax. Then EVERYBODY can help support the programs that are so important to you.

Look, I spent the majority of my life in the Marine Corps and Law Enforcement. I believe that there is a absolute need for a helping hand to be offered (on a temporary basis) to people in need. Retirement income be forwarded to those who have earned it. And social programs to aid in medical treatment for thoses in critical need etc. It's the "welfare mindset" that we as a nation have allowed to grow that I object to. It's the multi-generational sub culture that infests society I'm talking about.

Do you realize that close to 50% of our citizens pay ZERO income taxes? Yet are standing in line at the ER for bee stings? Why not? All their medical treatments come free. Do you have any concept of the number of freeloaders who are drawing food stamps, and aid for dependant childern, and living in HUD housing, suplimented by tax payer money, who are out peddeling pot and meth for extra spending cash?

It drives me nuts thinking that a certain number of people in America think it's a good idea to borrow money from China to keep up this insanity.

It is class warfare that Obama is calling for. He is the figurehead of this loopy socialistic concept. Our nation will fail if there isn't enough clear headed people willing to help break this cycle. My greatest fear is that the scales may already be tipped to far in the direction of those who receive their free lunch from the horn of plenty as it exists today. Of course it doesn't make sence for a person to go to the voting polls and cast a ballot to do away with this grab bag of goodies he's been receiving for years. God help this nation if that is the case. In 50 years, starving Americans will be sneaking into mexico looking for a better life.
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Posted by Mary1 (+158) 10 years ago
Listen to Faux News much?

Ok so what is your plan to get rid of the "welfare mindset" please include in there the corporations that think the rest of us should foot their bills since there are several that don't pay taxes in the US, GE is one example.

Just saying that we should get rid of the mindset without a plan on how to do that so that children of these "freeloaders" don't die is what I'm looking for all you did was vomit Faux News "facts." This is the same news program that went on and on about $250,000 isn't much money but turned around and talked about rich teachers making tons for what they decided was part time work since the school day started at 8 am and ended at 3 pm not listing the time the teachers actually got to work and what time they left plus grading homework and all the school plans. I also want to say that teachers help us raise our kids whether you like it or not, they spend hours with them 5 days a week for 9 months a year but somehow they are over paid and people making over $250,000 need our help...I call bs on Faux News, they are just trying to divide a country.
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Posted by Tongue River Millworks & Meadows (+240) 10 years ago
All this chatter is in the name of God?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Hey Glenn, you forgot to post your phone number. The freeloaders won't be able to contact you to apply for one of your jobs.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Look, I spent the majority of my life worked 20 years and started collecting a pension from the Marine Corps and Law Enforcement. (Who pays those guys?)

Go procreate yourself, Glenn. Your outlook is based on a bunch of complete bullpoop misinformation spoon fed to you through radio. You didn't read Richard's article, you know damn well you didn't, there are too many letters.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (9/24/2011)]
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Posted by Tongue River Millworks & Meadows (+240) 10 years ago
Point taken.
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Posted by Glenn Shelhamer (+83) 10 years ago
To Buck and Mary 1.....Dang sorry to rattle your tree.

I don't have any jobs to offer. Just a little of my life expierences to share.

All I can say is that I'm the father of six productive adult childern, and grand daddy of 11 fine youngsters. I'm retired after a life time of earning my own way in a great country that afforded the ability to do that.

Never asked for a hand out, wouldn't have wanted to muscle in on all those who were in need of so much.

Deep down in my heart I see the danger looming ahead for those I love, and I believe that the political path that the liberal thinking people adhear to are the cause of it.

It's obvious I'll not change your minds....guess this whole post was a waste of my time....guess all I can say is ..see ya on election day.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
So I assume you've rejected your Social Security. Or least will stop taking it once you've recovered your cost. After all, accepting anything more would be an entitlement.
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Posted by Mathew Schmitz (+284) 10 years ago
Glenn I think the last line of your first post here says it all. "Enough already"
A little clarification on emergency room fee's. Unless actual facts are gonna get in the way. Everybody that is treated in every emergency room is billed for services provided. Nobody gets treated for free. Whether that person can ever pay the bill is another topic altogether. But everybody gets a bill in the mail. Free services, and services you can't pay for are 2 different things. So if you got no funds, but find yourself in dire need of medical care, what should that person do? Rub some dirt on it and wait until Monday when Urgent Care is open? Bee stings kill hundreds in this country every year, but what the hell. No big deal I guess. Unless it's one of your grandkids? The world is not that black and white Glenn. Throw them lazy bastards off of unemployment and they will have to find a job! That will learn em. I guess thats the republicant way these days. I worked hard for mine, and I don't care if you can't work at all. Careful climbing down off that soap box. If you break a hip, my tax dollars have to pay for it.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
To Buck and Mary 1.....Dang sorry to rattle your tree.

I don't have any jobs to offer. Just a little of my life expierences to share.

All I can say is that I'm the father of six productive adult childern, and grand daddy of 11 fine youngsters. I'm retired after a life time of earning my own way in a great country that afforded the ability to do that.

Never asked for a hand out, wouldn't have wanted to muscle in on all those who were in need of so much.

Deep down in my heart I see the danger looming ahead for those I love, and I believe that the political path that the liberal thinking people adhear to are the cause of it.

It's obvious I'll not change your minds....guess this whole post was a waste of my time....guess all I can say is ..see ya on election day.


I feel validated.
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
There are approximately 315 million people in the U.S. and only about 230,000 are worth a million or more dollars (census bureau). I don't think increasing the tax on the people making a million or more will make a dent in all these so called entitlement programs. I am not saying that taxes won't have to be raised at some point, but until the government stops all the needless spending and cuts waste and fraud out of programs we already have increasing taxes on anyone is a waste of time and money.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
thanks Steve for this link....

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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Irony... if we're being honest, this is more Theonomic than anything Francis Schaeffer ever wrote.
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
I agree Jan. When people get hungry enough they will start working. Lots of jobs available, like some of the jobs the illegals are working. If I was hungry enough I would even work Walmart.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
and how do you propose a person pay rent of at least 400 to 500 per month plus food and utilities on minimum wage jobs??? if they have children even more so...what is your plan then for those folks...Let the kids go hungry?? let the kids and their parent or parents sleep in the street...where do the kids go when they aren't in school...how do they pay for daycare expecially in the summer when school isn't a factor...?? Tell us, oh wise one, what then?? and God forbid, if they get sick, how do they pay for medical care?? Just let them die??
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
No, they could apply for the difference in Welfare. At least they are trying to work even if they need additional help. It is the ones that won't even take a job. But they do not need extra's like big screen tv's and etc in the house if they collect welfare.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
If you are on welfare, I think it is required to work as part of it...Not sure but the Clinton welfare reform act had something like that in it didn't it??
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
I agree with taxpayer, If a person wants to work they can find a job. It may not pay what they were getting before they lost their job due to the recession, but they can find a job. Believe it or not people there are a lot of jobs out there. You just have to want to work.(there lies the problem for a lot of people, they just don't want to work). Then there are those who were working for 20 - 30 dollars an hour who won't work for anything less, so they stay on unemployment and as long as we keep extending the unemployment benefits they will continue to stay on those benefits. Why should anyone work if they can get a free handout ? I don't mind helping those who really need it or the disabled, or our servicemen returning home from a combat zone. But I do have a problem with fee loaders......korkyII..
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
have a friend with no education just a GED that has been job hunting for three weeks and has applied everywhere including fast food as well as Walmart and no offers whatsoever...this is in the Billings area...
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
a quote from one of your founding fathers....


and a quote from one of your former presidents


thanks Brian for these links

[This message has been edited by howdy (9/25/2011)]
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
Irony... if we're being honest, this is more Theonomic than anything Francis Schaeffer ever wrote.


Only by your definition of irony or honesty.
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
Howdy, is he registered with job service here in miles city ? They have an extensive listing of openings here in miles city. They also assist in writing resume's..etc.. I have a retired friend that wasn't able to make ends meet and decided to get a job. He utilized there services. Took him less than a day to find a job and get hired that pays well above minimum wage. Plus there are farmers and ranchers in the area that need help this time of year and these jobs quite often lead to full time employment with housing and utilities paid. A good place to start is by just typing in "miles city job service" on the computer and it will take you to their site and listings. (Miles City and state wide.......korkyII......
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
He lives in Billings, and is registered with them...His job resume along with his bad leg makes him a risk, I think, but he is willing to work but no employer wants him...very sad...I am sure there are lots of cases like him around...slighly disabled but willing to work...
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Posted by Mary1 (+158) 10 years ago
I would like everyone to remember that the 50% Faux talks about includes retired person collecting Social Security Benefits plus people like my younger brother who is receiving VA disability payments, no taxes there but I am 100% positive he would give you all your money back if you gave him his physical and mental health back.

I just want all you "it's class warfare" people to know who is among those who pay no taxes. Veterans and senior citizens make up most of that 50% and if you don't think they earned it than I have nothing to say to you.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
Most seniors don't make enough to pay taxes...they live on very little and after they pay for their medicare and medicare supplements, that makes it much less...My hubby and I pay a great deal for our supplements plus medicare...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
No, they could apply for the difference in Welfare. At least they are trying to work even if they need additional help.


That sums up this whole stupid conversation. In one hand everyone is a cheat in the other we recognize that's not true. Pointless.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
Exactly, Buck, well put....
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Right, Richard. Got it. Low taxes... theonomic.

Raisin' taxes for Jeeeeeeezus. Just good public policy.

Makes sense.

There's only a small problem. You can't make Christians at gunpoint.

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (9/25/2011)]
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Posted by Mrs. M (+711) 10 years ago
I know this will get all kinds of sarcastic remarks about quoting scripture but am still going to do it because I think it's funny and yes I lean to the right.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
My heart inclines to my pacemaker I think LOL...Thankfully...
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
I guess I'm not most seniors then because I pay taxes on my retirement and also pay taxes on my SS and also pay taxes on my house.And this may alarm some of you, But I have no quarrels about paying those taxes. Howdy, it seems your friend needs to be on Disability. I have no problem with that. Now if we can get those idiots off disability that don't need to be there maybe we can pay your friend enough to live comfortably on........korkyII...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
All we really need is a committee of Jan, Glenn, and tax payer to determine who is disabled and who is a big sissy faker.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
There is a huge deduction for SS that makes it unusual to pay taxes on it unless you have a really large retirement...You must have that...Congrats as most seniors don't...A large corporation went broke where my hubby worked for 25 yrs and took his retirment with them...left him with only a small sum with no cost of living yearly...I would guess that you are retired from the government perhaps where they have nice cost of living percentages build in for everyone...most folks don't have that...of course we also pay taxes on our home...everyone does that owns one...we budget and allow for that...

plus my friend is too proud to say he is disabled and won't apply for disability as he is one of those that watches Faux News and thinks he should work...so he keeps trying and trying to no avail...another victim of the brain washing of Faux News IMO...

[This message has been edited by howdy (9/26/2011)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 10 years ago
If a person wants to work they can find a job.


So, according to Jan, there is NO unemployment! Wow! Tell the gubmint coz they sure think there is.

Getting a part-time minimum wage job does not improve the economy because those folks cannot buy houses, cars, appliances, etc. and have no disposable income. We need DECENT jobs that pay a LIVING wage to get out of this rut and cart runners at Wally World don't count.

We need manufacturing and construction and research and service and millions of other jobs that allow people to buy stuff.

By the way, there is a HUGE gap between the number of available jobs and the number of job seekers, maybe not in Miles City but we are not exactly representative of the rest of the USA.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 10 years ago
"maybe not in Miles City but we are not exactly representative of the rest of the USA."

Amorette. You're trying to argue with people who can't see past the end of their own noses and depend on Fox News for their facts.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
I've yet to see Wendy's question answered. I'm assuming all of you anti-entitlement crusaders, if already retired and drawing SS, have a date in mind that you will be withdrawing yourselves from the SS/Medicare system, once you've drawn what you contributed, and for those yet to retire, you must be planning on figuring out that date. Put your money where your mouth is.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
Well Korky II, what about it...you said you pay taxes on your SS so when are you going to refuse to take it...Since it is an entitlement...Answer Wendy and Mary!! Inquiring minds wish to know...Also since you have this large retirement that you also pay taxes on, you don't need it obviously...A man making that much in retirement shouldn't be a hog and instead should refuse it as long as he is requiring others to go without...
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
I know this will get all kinds of sarcastic remarks about quoting scripture but am still going to do it because I think it's funny and yes I lean to the right.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)


No one should make "all kinds of sarcastic remarks" about you quoting scripture. Quoting scripture out of context and applying your own homespun meaning is a different manner.

Using your reasoning, you should be very afraid of flying because you might be without Jesus. After all, Matt 28:20 says "Lo" (as opposed to high) "I will be with you always." NASB

Your citation and interpretation is precisely the kind of nonsense that the article at the beginning of this thread was talking about. We need to rid ourselves of this stupid "name it and claim it" christian capitalism mentality.

If the New Testament has any "action plan" for today it is that we love, care, provide, and protect our neighbors. We should do all within our power to make sure that all are "free from want". We should live our live by the Golden Rule which transcends individual religious points of view and is the common thread that unites us.

"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want [j]them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matt 7:12

Judaism:
Talmud, Shabbat 31a:
What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That is the entire Law (Torah); all the rest is commentary.

Islam:
Sunnah, Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13:
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Since Allah is the one God of everything, then everyone in the world is a brother.

Mishkat-el-Masabih:
Do unto all men as you would they should unto you, and reject for others what you would reject for yourself.

The Farewell Sermon, by Muhammad (delivered before his death, A.D. 632):
Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.

Buddhism:
Udana-Varga 5:18:
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.

Hinduism:
Mahabharata 5:1517:
This is the sum of duty: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you.

Panchatantra III.104:
Never do to others what would pain thyself.

Mencius Vii.A.4:
One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself.

Confucianism:
Analects 15:23:
Do not unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

Doctrine of the Mean 13.3:
Tse-kung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire."

Taoism:
T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien:
Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain and your neighbor' loss as your own loss.

Zoroastrianism:
Dadistan-I-dinik 94:5:
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself.

Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29:
Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others.

Jainism:
Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara:
In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self.

Sikhism:
Guru Arjan Devji 259:
Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone.

Ancient Egyptian:
The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109-110 (1970-1640 BC):
Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do.

Native American:
The Great Law of Peace:
Respect for all life is the foundation.

The Shawnee:
Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not him that you injure, you injure yourself. But do good to him, therefore add to his days of happiness as you add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor, for it is not him that you wrong, you wrong yourself. But love him, for Moneto loves him also as he loves you.

Socrates:
Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you.

Plato:
May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me.

Roman Pagan Religion:
The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves.

Wicca (Neopagan Witchcraft):
Wiccan Rede:
An' it harm none, do what you will.

Secular Humanism (atheists):
British Humanist Society:
Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you.

President Obama:
Notre Dame Commencement Speech, May 17, 2009:

"For if there is one law that we can be most certain of, it is the law that binds people of all faiths and no faith together. It is no coincidence that it exists in Christianity and Judaism; in Islam and Hinduism; in Buddhism and humanism. It is, of course, the Golden Rule - the call to treat one another as we wish to be treated. The call to love. To serve. To do what we can to make a difference in the lives of those with whom we share the same brief moment on this Earth."

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (9/26/2011)]
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
wow, excellent post Richard....wish I had an applause emote LOL...Found one LOL...


[This message has been edited by howdy (9/26/2011)]
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Now if only someone tell me which translation of

Treat others as you would be treated

equals

Tax the $&*# out of the guy with the Mercedes
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
Howdy, for those of you who think social security is an entitlement you are wrong. If you pay into a retirement system how can it be an entitlement. What you receive in ss is based on how much you have contributed. If you have another income source in your retirement years and are getting ss, depending on that total amt will determine what part of your ss you must pay taxes on. As far as medicare goes, if you really want to know, I was forced to go on medicare when I turned 65 and it is actually costing me more to be on medicare than my previous health ins. It would be interesting to find out how many of you screaming for tax increases actually pay taxes. Tax increases aren't going to fix ss or medicare and if they do raise taxes, so be it but when it's all said and done the rich are still going to be rich, the poor are still going to be poor and ss and medicare are still going to be in a mess. If you want to criticize someone, tell O'bama to cut loose of some of that billion dollars he's got in his get reelected fund.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
You receive what you have contributed in a very short few years...doesn't take long...so if you just want what you have contributed, take a peek, you might have already run out...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
In other words and completely like every other procreateing idiot, "Keep your hands off my Medicare. Keep your hands off my Social Security. Keep your hands off my Veteran's Benefits." It's not an argument worth having, Bob is right and the end of the nose is as far as it goes. I'm a procreateing poet.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
Answer the question Korky. Straight up, are you going to forfeit SS and Medicare once you've been paid back what you contributed? Simple question.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I'm assuming all of you anti-entitlement crusaders, if already retired and drawing SS, have a date in mind that you will be withdrawing yourselves from the SS/Medicare system, once you've drawn what you contributed, and for those yet to retire, you must be planning on figuring out that date. Put your money where your mouth is.


I wonder who gets to pick up the tab for all these people collecting more than they paid in? Oh that's right. The Grandkids. Hopefully they'll figure it out and just push it off on their kids. The New American Dream.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
And some of the ones running their mouths the loudest about passing it off to the grandkids are in fact doing the very same thing themselves. You name me ONE example of someone who bitches about this that has every intention of withdrawing from the system once they've received what they paid. It can be done. Easy to bitch about everyone else being part of a problem without looking in the mirror.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
You name me ONE example of someone who bitches about this that has every intention of withdrawing from the system once they've received what they paid.


What about the poor (young) suckers who'll never have a chance to get back what they paid in because all of their money was burnt keeping the pyramid afloat?

Someone is getting the shaft one of these days. We can either plan now for a fair exit, or just let it crash and burn.

Either way this horse is on its last legs.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
So the ones bitching the loudest, you would think, would be the first to practice what they preach and take one for the (American) team. Yet to see anyone step up though. Hello? Anyone going to answer that? Korky? Glen? Calculated what date you are withdrawing from the system so you aren't one of those damn worthless leeches?
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
The sad fact about Social Security is it's not a good deal for anyone. If anyone were allowed to keep what they paid in, they'd get far better return than social security offers, even at simple bank interest rates.

So in real terms, Social Security costs everyone.
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Posted by David Schott (+17053) 10 years ago
Rick Kuchynka wrote:
So in real terms, Social Security costs everyone.

You mean society is financially responsible for its aged, sick, and disabled? Shocking.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
To be honest with you David, my biggest problem with SS isn't the safety net. It's the fact that it was basically preordained to serve as a mammoth slush fund for the federal government.

They collected all those trillions of dollars in the name of taking care of us, and then they spent it. It's all gone. Something needs to be done to prevent that from happening again.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
I wonder who gets to pick up the tab for all these people collecting more than they paid in? Oh that's right. The Grandkids. Hopefully they'll figure it out and just push it off on their kids.



This is exactly why there shouldn't be a cap on SS contributions.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
Amen Wendy!! Exactly right...

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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I like it when Bill Maher uses phrases like "The rest of us" as if he's just one of the folks.

I wonder how much his cameramen make.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
Now if only someone tell me which translation of

Treat others as you would be treated

equals

Tax the $&*# out of the guy with the Mercedes


Romans 13:1-8
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (9/26/2011)]
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Huh, just not seeing it there.

I need something more like "And pray to the Lord your God for more taxation on your Lexus'ed brethren, for only they can truly afford to help the afflicted."

or maybe a parable about the time when the Good Samaritan handed out the business card of a good social worker he knew, before going on his way

New Question of the day (nobody ever answers!)... since tithing is basically like a flat tax, is God Republican?

j/k
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
It's funny how suddenly Rick becomes a pietist when the discussion turns to economics.

FYIGM isn't in the bible either.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
It's a basic matter of free will, Bridgier. If you have to compel someone...if they don't do it by choice, it isn't (Christian) charity.

And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
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Posted by Jan Cornutt (+275) 10 years ago
FYI Mary B and everyone else I have no intention of giving up something I have worked for. I pay taxes which is probably more than most of you on this blog. I am still paying into ss which is probably more than most of (if not all) of you do. If any of you want to see what poor people are, go to ethiopia or better yet go to Djibouti, then you will understand what poor is. Most poor people here in the U.S. are far better off than most poor people elswhere in this world. I dont have a problem helping someone in need. I do have a problem with people thinking I owe them just because I have more than them. If any of you have a problem with that go talk with you rep in congress and get it changed. Setting here bitching like a bunch of 2 yr olds wont't change a thing........korkyII
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Posted by Bob L. (+5094) 10 years ago
korky wrote:
I pay taxes which is probably more than most of you on this blog.



Yes, Korky. You're the only one who pays taxes. You're an American hero.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
I guess, "Give unto Caesar," is just way too simple for you, eh Rick?
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
So, Kork, you don't think there will ever come a time that you collect more than you contribute? Is this something you know, or think you know? Have you sat down and done the math? Are you saying you continue to contribute at a rate faster than you collect? Be honest now.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
you are still paying into SS while getting SS???
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
I don't think I can live long enough to use up all that I paid in. When you add the interest I lost on the money if it was invested it becomes a very large amount.
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
Yes Howdy if you work you pay into soc.sec. even while you are getting it. If you make too much on your paycheck you don't get much or any back on your social sec. check.
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Posted by Bob L. (+5094) 10 years ago
Tax payer: Since you're likely an idiot, I'm fairly sure you would have invested poorly and would thus have almost nothing. Just sayin'
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
if you work, you are only allowed to make a lower sum of money...so you work plus get SS and your retirement...WOW...You must have a large amount coming in...How much of it is in government funds with automatic COLA's written in...NOTE: I am 66 and haven't yet filed for SS benefits, but got medicare at 65 and have to pay a fee monthly for it ($115.00)...Juat decided that I would wait a bit before filing for the SS...

[This message has been edited by howdy (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 10 years ago
It's a basic matter of free will, Bridgier. If you have to compel someone...if they don't do it by choice, it isn't (Christian) charity.

And (Christian) guilt/coercion is free will, Rick?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
tax_payer: it doesn't make you a rascist, but it makes me thing you're not very bright.

My favorite Herman Cain quote: "I would have died under obmamacare!!" Uhmm... yeah. Because the death panels have a mandate to cap any CEO's that come before them. Idiot. I'd love to see what kind of insurance his cancer-ridden ass would have gotten before "ObamaCare" if he wasn't, you know... rich.

As for the rest... I don't understand why it's a (conservative) Christian's duty in a representative democracy to advocate for certain laws (abortion limits, prohibitions on gay marriage, etc) because their conscience demands it, but OTHER things are totally off limits (tax rates, abolition of the death penalty, health care, yadda yadda yadda), even those things would appear to be the most effective way of fulfilling the tenets of their professed religion.

Which is why I don't really think most Christians really take faith seriously beyond a means of identifying the other people who think like them.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by Glenn Shelhamer (+83) 10 years ago
Howdy, you and cronies make me sick. Why do you begruge anyone who was willing to work all those years and now have a retirement coming in? Your complaining out both sides of your mouth. On the one side, your crying about rich folks who don't give up enough of the dollars they've earned. In the next breath your accusing a regular blue collar worker of being NON Christian for drawing money from the very same system your on your soap box supporting.

Everybody I know agrees with you that given the extended life expectantcies in today's world....most of us do have a good chance of drawing more then we contributed to our retirement accounts. That's the reason the whole mess is going under.

I'm a big enough man to understand, and am willing to take a reasonable hit...so the whole system will continue for those young people working today.

I think your just a cronic complainer. I got a good idea for you, since begging seems to be your thing.....Why don't you ask Buck if he'll kick in half of his SS check to you? See how big his heart is.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
That's... not really what we're talking about glenn.

Korky's one of the rubes who thinks the world will end if one of the other crabs gets out of the bucket first.

Please ignore my non-sequitor to tax_payer above... it was supposed to go in the "How bad can the GOP get" thread instead.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 10 years ago
Glenn - I don't know you, and you don't know me. But I do know Howdy.

Not only are you wrong regarding your assumptions about her, but you are a gaping a**hole and a blooming idiot.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
As for the rest... I don't understand why it's a (conservative) Christian's duty in a representative democracy to advocate for certain laws (abortion limits, prohibitions on gay marriage, etc) because their conscience demands it, but OTHER things are totally off limits (tax rates, abolition of the death penalty, health care, yadda yadda yadda), even those things would appear to be the most effective way of fulfilling the tenets of their professed religion.

Which is why I don't really think most Christians really take faith seriously beyond a means of identifying the other people who think like them.


Well stated!
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
Howdy the only retirement fund I get is what I put in the bank myself. So why would you bitch about what I saved. To the other poster that thinks I would have gone broke if I invested my own money instead of the government is as all the liberal people say a f...ing idiot. If you can't beat em join em... Ever notice the right never call names, but the left have to when they open their mouth?
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Because all you've got to do is open your mouth...
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
Ever notice the right never call names, but the left have to when they open their mouth?


Really? I mean....really? Would you like examples?

It's probably best not to martyr one particular party, especially in print. Neither has a monopoly on sticking a collective foot in the mouth.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 10 years ago
THE RIGHT NEVER CALL NAMES!

What planet do you live on?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
Ever notice the right never call names, but the left have to when they open their mouth?


It is really sad that threads like this seem to degenerate into a kindergarden level class-warfare argument along the lines of the starred-belly sneetches. It is no wonder we have the problems we currently face. It is really really sad.



[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
Geez Amorette...look at the posts on here and you can tell who calls the names. Just like your post..instead of disagreeing you have to make a smart remark. I never went far enough to say I was talking about this site.
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
I agree Richard. Instead of discussing things some seem to have to bring the name calling in.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Discussing things? That's rich.

In this thread you've more or less stated that people collecting welfare or disability are cheats, then you said you couldn't apply that rule 100% of the time. That's where a "discussion" would have ended, but you have no problem operating solely on contradictions. I'm suprised space and time haven't collapsed on themselves.
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Posted by tax payer (+344) 10 years ago
Okay Buck I will admitt my post was wrong. But a good percentage of people that CAN (with no disability of holding down any job) need to go hungry before they can go on welfare if a job is available and they choose welfare over a job. If the job doesn't provide a simple life for them, then welfare can kick in. I mean it doesn't pay enough to put food on the table and pay for medical treatments that is really needed. Do you agree or disagree?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Here's the deal on SS:

Under full retirement age: If you also work your SS benefit may be reduced. Any benefits you do receive may also be included in your taxable income (up to 85% of SS may be included in income) and taxed.

At or over full retirement age: The amount of SS benefits you receive is not affected by any other income. But just like above, up to 85% of your SS benefits may be included in your income and taxed.

Yes, you can be paying into SS and getting it at the same time if you work while you are getting benefits.

In keeping with the schoolyard spat we're having, p.s. to korky: I probably paid more tax last year than you did.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
thanks Brian for your support in this thread...appreciate it...(tip of my hat to ya)...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
I'm not sure what you're asking me to agree on. Work is a better alternative than welfare, yes. Do a lot of people use welfare to bridge the gap between their unlivable wage and living? I believe that is one of Wal-Mart's practices and probably not uncommon. I guess we agree on some things. I'm not going to use terms like "majority" unless I'm saying something like, "The majority of Tea Party members want to secure US borders because they are afraid the supremacy of white males will be threatened by a more determined brown workforce."
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
Or, "the majority of Tea Party members flunked civics and economics and make Robert Heinlein look like a genius of philosophic thought. And their ideas are stupid. Jaw droppingly stupid."
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Yeah, but usually with more profanity.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I guess, "Give unto Caesar," is just way too simple for you, eh Rick?


Yeah, Buck, because everyone who's read the bible or Roman history understands that when Jesus said 'render to Caeser' he was talking about supporting Roman acts of public charity and kindness. Context is everything.

but OTHER things are totally off limits (tax rates, abolition of the death penalty, health care


This is your creation of a false dilemma, where you assume others see things the way your caricature says they should. I've never made the argument that Christianity mandates that your topics are 'off limits'

You said that the bible states we should give more money (in reality other people's money) to the government to take care of the poor.

I'm saying your claim has no basis in reality. But that doesn't mean I'm claiming the bible says the opposite, or forbids what you're saying either.

We can have the 'government is the best kind of charity' debate all day if you like. History has shown that it isn't, and human nature means it never will be. But if your side wins the argument and gets the votes to make it happen, then I'll have to pay more attention to the rendering unto Caesar stuff when the time comes.

But all you've done here is throw a cheap Christian veneer over your argument so you can accuse your opposition of apostasy. The SOCAStrian irony of it all is interesting to say the least.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 10 years ago
Socrastian irony. Jesus Christ.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
"The majority of Tea Party members want to secure US borders because they are afraid the supremacy of white males will be threatened by a more determined brown workforce."


You could say the same thing about the no-free-traders and anti-NAFTAteers as well. Same principle at work. Read into it what you want.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."


Father of the Constitution, Writer of the First Amendment, and apparently terrible Christian... James Madison

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
Father of the Constitution, Writer of the First Amendment, and apparently terrible Christian... James Madison


GOOD NEWS RICKY.... you finally got something sorta right. If anything, Madison was a deist and/or free mason. He wasn't a Christian at all.


http://www.earlyamerica.c...cular.html

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (9/27/2011)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
The fact that you see the commonweal as "kindness and charity" is illuminating.

You're either being reductive to the point of nonsense (do roads and bridges count as "kindness and charity"? Why not? How about education? Again, if not then why not?) or else your vision for America comes straight out of the Gilded age.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I've read memorial and remonstrance, Richard. I suggest you do so as well to get what it's really all about. What Madison said there makes him nothing more than a Protestant (Specifically Episcopal) who had seen what political power had done to the "one true" church.

It's important to remember that this was in the 1700's. Reformation was still kind of a big deal.

Bridgier, I'm still confused. Should we build roads and bridges in His Holy Name? Or is there really no such thing as separation when it comes to your favorite pet projects?
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Rick, it is that effing simple. Give Caesar anything he asks of you because this life is only temporary. You have kids, right? If one of them is less than five years old, maybe you can start running things by them before you post. It's the childishly simple stuff that makes you (and Republicans and now Christians) look like selfish a-holes. The simplest lessons in the Bible... sad.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Might want to reread, Buck. Render to Caesar is about respecting the wishes of those placed in authority, which in our case is our representative Republican government.

As I said, if Bridgier and Richard win the day and get action from our 'Caesar' then that changes things.

Until then, saying

"Richard and Bridgier think rich people should give their money to the poor, so Render to Caesar!"

makes no sense whatsoever.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
But rick... aren't WE part of that representative republican government?

And if so, then isn't it a Christian's duty to advocate for policies that align with their conscience?

"I want to keep my monies" is a statement of conscience, I suppose... but it's not a terribly christian one. Nor is "we must torture others so that we might be safe", or "the needs of the corporations are more important than the needs of the people", etc, etc, etc...

Also... why does "Episcopalian" indicate anything useful here? If you'd said "Quaker" or "Baptist" then I could see your point, as these denominations were, at the time, religious and political nonconformists. Episcopalian was then, as it is now, the sect of the Establishment and Proper People.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
was also a part of the Church of England (Episcopalian)
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
You know, this is the trap in which I always find myself in participating here. Rick is spouting total ignorance and mischaracterization concerning Madison, and the whole "Christian Capitalism is God's plan" idea which started this thread. I'd like to correct that... but to what end? The minute details of the argument will change to suit his purpose.

I believe that we are to live life by the golden rule and make sure that all are free from want. IMO, government has a role in achieving that objective as a distribution mechanism because of its nature and size of scale. If that means that those who are blessed with more, give more, so be it. We should all be funnels of our good fortune to charity, not buckets that trap and hoard. Piggy banks inside of caskets are pointless. We individually and corporately have a responsibility to look after and care for those in our circle of influence. Cows don't give milk, you have to take it away from them.

While I believe that the defending the truth is important, there comes a time when continuing to correct or counter-point the fallacious statements of the belligerent trolls who frequent this site becomes an exercise in futility. I guess they will have to wallow in their own vapid point of view until the school of hard knocks changes their manner of thinking.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (9/28/2011)]
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
well stated Richard!! Amen brother!!
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Rick, it doesn't make sense because you have complicated everything that should be simple. If you want to play the role of Christian, act Christian. Concern yourself with what lies beyond and render unto Caesar what he asks of you. It doesn't matter if it's road construction or shrimp-on-a-treadmill research or medicine for the needy, you just give him what he asks so he doesn't crucify you and you move on with your day because your lifetime is the blink of an eye compared to the eternity you'll spend in Hell for being such an ignorant bastard. Really, go ask a 5 year old.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
But rick... aren't WE part of that representative republican government?

And if so, then isn't it a Christian's duty to advocate for policies that align with their conscience?


Hey, you, me, and Mr Schaeffer are all on the same page for once. And so far Richard's head hasn't exploded.

"I want to keep my monies" is a statement of conscience, I suppose... but it's not a terribly christian one.


"I want to keep my monies, but I heard the guy across the street has a Rolex!"

Yeah, not much better. Probably worse, actually.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Rick is spouting total ignorance and mischaracterization concerning Madison, and the whole "Christian Capitalism is God's plan" idea which started this thread.


All I'm saying Richard is that if you find some partisan site that makes a reference, check that reference out. If it tells you a document says something, read the document itself. You'll be surprised at how people will make a document say whatever they want it to.

I believe that we are to live life by the golden rule and make sure that all are free from want. IMO, government has a role in achieving that objective as a distribution mechanism because of its nature and size of scale.


"To each according to his need?" It's been tried. Doesn't work. The best way to help our poor is to give them jobs. And not just shoveling dirt with spoons, as Milton Friedman liked to say. The real opportunities come when people find real work that needs doing.

Fun quote of the day, I'll let you find who said it

The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual and moral distintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of sound policy.

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (9/29/2011)]
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
Holy crap. Who should actually read whole docs for context now?
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 10 years ago
Your ability to cherry-pick and completely separate yourself from any sort of context never fails to amaze, Rick. The depth of your contempt for the world in which we ALL live - yes, even you - is truly befuddling.

I am convinced, more than ever, that you were hatched from a pod, Rick. Clearly, this is the only way your I-Live-In-A-Vacuum world could possibly make sense.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 10 years ago
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 10 years ago
Rick:

Do your jaw and knees ever get tired?

Edit: I wasn't going to say it, but my shadenfreude side is overriding the other voices in my head, so...

What's it like being a Koch Whore like Gov. Rick Perry?

[This message has been edited by Kelly (10/2/2011)]

Second Edit...His name is Rick, which rhymes with >>>

















Nick. HA HA

[This message has been edited by Kelly (10/2/2011)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 10 years ago
Sycophant.
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Posted by Kyle L. Varnell (+3745) 10 years ago
Brian, how are ya? Been a while.
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supporter
Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Heh. Koch Whore. Nice. I didn't see so much liberal cliche in the forecast today. Oh well, that's the way weather goes sometimes.

Reminded me of something I read awhile back though.

http://reason.com/blog/20...os-support

The KOCH brothers must be stopped. They gave $40K to Scott Walker, the MAX allowed by state law. That's small potatoes compared to the $100+ million they give to other organizations. These organizations will terrify you. If the anti-union thing weren't enough, here are bigger and better reasons to stop the evil Kochs. They are trying to:

decriminalize drugs,
legalize gay marriage,
repeal the Patriot Act,
end the police state,
cut defense spending.

Who hates the police? Only the criminals using drugs, amirite? We need the Patriot Act to allow government to go through our emails and tap our phones to catch people who smoke marijuana and put them in prison. Oh, it's also good for terrorists

...

Now, I don't know why the KOCH brothers want gay people to have the right to marry. Everybody knows marriage is for a man and a woman. Even Obama said that. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve amirite? I haven't figured out the angle. Maybe it's like this:

legalize drugs
legalize gay marriage
sell drugs and oil to gays
????
PROFIT$$$
I don't know exactly how it would work, but we can all agree that they're evil.


Conspiratorializing is hard!
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
As I said before... a koch koch ain't gonna clean itself.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Are you trying to make a koch koch joke?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
Speaking of those who should quit while they are ahead...
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