Surely the Mayor didn't get a ticket yesterday with him being in the race for Mayor again....and I don't believe in gossip.

hmmmm

....and I don't believe in gossip.

but the gossip started with the first post in this thread.

Who cares if he got a ticket, as long as it wasn't assault or some other nasty offense. I think almost everybody has got a ticket at some point or another for speeding, no seatbelt, expired registration, ect.

Glass houses and stones... Spreading unverified rumor is called slander I believe.

If the man has done a good job, re-elect him, otherwise find a new candidate that will, and meets your high standards for ticketing.

Yes, Tori. One of my dogs escaped her kennel late on Tuesday night following the City Council meeting, was picked up at 11:50 p.m., and I was cited for a 1st violation of dog at-large.

Anything else you'd like to know?

Joe

Was it a lottery ticket? Did he win some money?

Joe, it's okay! I forgive you.

Considering the exorbitant salary and benefits Joe receives for being mayor of Miles City, I suspect this is just his way of giving a little something back.

Hey "Tori", grow some 'nads and post using your full name. I dare you.

- Dave

"Tori" is for Victoria. My last name is Myers. Now, do you know anything more than you did?

Yes.

I can't believe a man who built his entire candidacy on eliminating at-large canines would behave this way. Joe Gingrich.

Well I for one won't be voting for anyone whose dog escaped for Mayor!!!!!

His dog was running for mayor? I'm not sure I'd vote for a dog either. Good call.

At least Joe is honest and does not use his position as mayor to get them dismissed. He is an honest man and he makes the mayor position honorable. Larry

He has my vote. I was quite impressed with him actually. Was quite worried when it got down to the wire and heard he had not put in for reelection. Was concerned about the others running for mayor.

Honest? He drove without a license and no insurance....

the Mayor is a very impressive and honest man and Miles City is lucky to have him at such a low salary too... Tori, wake up and smell the roses and stop trying to smear the mayor...It is quite unbecoming...Also the powers that be should give him a raise as well...

[This message has been edited by howdy (7/15/2011)]

He already atoned for that

Tori... seems like you're holier than thou.. why dont YOU run for mayor?

All politicians have some type of skeleton in their closet, and compared what is revealed on the news and what not about our country's politicians, if driving with no papers is the worse than can be dug up about our mayor, then we have it good with Mr Whalen here in town.

Tori, why don't you use those super sleuthing skills and start digging on the other mayoral candidates. The results should be [will be] much more interesting.

I am certain that the Mayors dog escaped only to pee on the Udan's and Grenz's lawns. Seems like that would hardly be a ticketable offense.

I agree with Howdy. Joe is one of the first in a long time that serves as mayor for such low pay because he truly believes in the concept of public servanthood. Most that have served recently and several that are candidates are more interested in power and prestige, not necessarily being a public servant. That is unfortunate. Hopefully, Joe is reelected. Miles CIty has been well-served to-date by his leadership.

I'll bet if the mayor had hit you with no insurance, you would be singing a different tune! True, all politicians have some type of skeltons, but some people have sure been digging on Mr. Uden and Mr. Grenz. Freedom of speech is our right unless it is slanderous; I only write the truth.

Why don't YOU run for mayor?

Mary B: I don't know anything about the candidates other than the current one has been in past news with no license and no insurance. He was fined for dog at large. If this had happened to the other candidates, you betcha it would be in the news and on milescity.com. I have heard Mr. Grenz tried really hard but mostly he was criticized for wearing a dirty apron. Mr. Uden was before my time but I've heard he was a fair and decent man.

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Perhaps we should check with those who work directly with the mayor on a daily basis to see what kind of a mayor he is. From reading the newspaper, it seems that pool is getting smaller every week. Micromanagement, nit-picking and playing "Big Brother" seem to be his operative. It's a shame the city has lost years of great experience due to some boob who spends more time roaming from office to office with demands of senseless deadlines and an inflated ego.

Alright Tori. I'm sure you have got a ticket, or have done something not-so-legal in the past years. Nobody is perfect. However, our current Mayor has been the best we've had. He is community minded, and even though he got a ticket, he didn't try to hide it nor did he ignore you. What Mayor do YOU know that would willingly come forward on a public forum like this and admit he did wrong? Not too many.

Grow up, and quit being a tattletale.

Oh, does the major take lunch from 12 to 1 or 1 to 2 as I see he posted on here at 1:30.

Ha ha, Vickie, get a life.

Tori, I'm sure that he posted during his lunch...just, as according to city employes, as he incessantly views youtube during his "lunch".

as many unpaid hours of work put in by this mayor, I am sure Miles City owes this man many hours of leave, and the time he took to answer your post would take about 30 seconds of typing...Grow up young lady and learn the facts about ALL CANDIDATES, not just one...

Josh, to be honest, I have never had a ticket. Doesn't make me perfect, but just to answer that.

You said the mayor didn't try to hide the ticket. He hid driving with no license and no insurance until he was caught. He doesn't impress me that he came on a forum to admit a ticket - he was caught.

You only hear one side of the way the mayor is...not the other - the not so pretty - the way he treats his people.

I believe the mayor's job is designated and payed as a part time position. There are not set hours for him to be there other then at meeting. He chooses to be in office more so people have access to him, like someone with a question about a dog at large ticket.

For that, I apoligize.

Thank you for calling me "young". As for being a "lady", I'm afraid my lady would be a bit upset to hear her beloved called a lady.

He was fined for dog at large. If this had happened to the other candidates, you betcha it would be in the news and on milescity.com.

Since when is a dog-at-large ticket newsworthy? I have had several in my lifetime, despite being responsible and having fences, kennels, etc. I sure hope that doesn't make me ineligible to run for Miles City's prestigious public servant positions, because I feel a candidacy or two coming on.

Because in a political race, anything is news.

Anything is news? Is that really your take on the political world? It's a very immature one. Now why don't you go back to watching Jerseylicious.

I've never watched it but nice that you enjoy it.

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Because in a political race, anything is news.

I disagree, in part. The salacious tendency of Americans has made this true. I like to think we are better than that. If you don't make trivial matters newsworthy, then they are not newsworthy. We, as evidenced by this thread and the plethora of trash checkstand magazines and 24-hour "news" programs, seem to have a problem with identifying the truly important issues of a political race.

We need to expect better of ourselves.

wow tori..

you never had this.. never done that...

Walmart has a special on batteries right now...

your Duracells need replacing in your glowing halo...

Why thank you

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Glad your dog is fine, and i would like to remind you that if a person has an IQ of 100 or more they cann't be a cop.

I have a 114 so I cann't have a gun. Only dumb killer bullies that beat up old ladies can have a gun and badge, PUT THE SIGN UP MAYOR!

Did you know that a cop's IQ can't be too high, or he will be rejected ...
At least in Connecticut: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht. The annual starting salaries for the various groups are as follows:
answers.yahoo.com/question/?index?qid=20070628075208AAkdlEC

Jeez, cash. What IQ test did you take?

Cash, I cannot comment as to your IQ post, but I do understand that Miles City has the lowest paid police officers and firemen in the state. Miles City has a budget in the black (something that not all cities have) and yet the mayor refuses to pay them decent salaries.

The Mayor negotiated a raise for said positions, City Council turned it down.

Really TJO? Is there a fireman who feels that he is not paid a decent wage for Miles City? I would like to see evidence of that.

family of trolls invading this thread now




name them as you like

Yeah, I started it, so who is invading it? You didn't put enough trolls.

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Mary B. -- I know of no one in ANY occupation who is amongst the lowest paid in the state in their field who believes they are paid a fair salary.

I asked specifically about firemen, since you singled out policemen and firemen. Please provide evidence of your claim that firemen in Miles City feel they do not receive a "decent salary". I happen to know several firemen, and what they earn in wages and benefits, and know that they would not claim to not receive a decent wage. Also, please back up your claim with evidence that our firemen are some of the lowest paid in the state for comparably sized Montana towns. Sticking to figures from towns of less than 10,000 people will probably give your argument more merit.

Mr. Grenz tried really hard...

To bankrupt the city with harassmant lawsuits? How procreateing dumb can you be?

And I don't know who brought up firemen's pay, but they're lucky to paid at all. Ever heard of volunteers? That's still pretty big in Montana.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (7/15/2011)]

I wasn't aware of the harassment lawsuits. Thank you for pointing that out so procreateing rude.

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Vickie's getting upset. Vickie, are you pulling for Butch "Sweet Cheeks" Grenz?

To all of you who are defending the mayor....I recently moved to Miles City and will shortly be voting alongside all of you. However, I will not be voting for him. I will not vote for a man who spends his time arguing on milescity.com, and by doing so condones his followers to jump on someone with a different opinion like a pack of bloodthirsty wolves.
As for those of you who ask for proof on every statement that Tori and TJO have made, where is all your proof to back up what you have said? Maybe you should follow your own example on that one. Keep going with your "holier than thou" comments. It just makes you look sad, considering you are all beginning to look like the church choir. To sum it all up, spending your time bashing people for their own opinions is not very good publicity for your candidate. Maybe a campaign poster would be a better way to spend your time if you feel the need to do something.

SLJ, what claims have I made that require supporting evidence? None would be the correct answer. TJO, on the other hand, has made statements that are both misleading and erroneous. If the information is accurate, he should have no problem providing factual data. Miles City's firemen are not some of the lowest paid in the state for comparably sized towns, period.

You cannot accuse someone of not paying them a decent wage, base it on the supposed fact that they don't earn a decent wage because they are some of the lowest paid in the state, and then refuse to provide where you obtained this information. If you do, you deserve to have your assertions questioned. As to it being the mayor's fault that they do not earn a "decent salary", I have yet to see Steve's post addressed. Why?

And, btw, for those who are both pro-Grenz and pro-firefighters, check your history.

Why is Tori being called Vicki when she said her real name was Victoria? Just curious.

I'm not from Miles City, but I do visit quite often. I don't have any idea of the inner workings (per se) of the local government. So my comment is based solely on the reading of this thread. (I did however research the comments made by both "mayor" and "Joe Whalen").

I cannot find one single post by either within the last 12 months that can even remotely be misconstrued as part of an argument. Seems like someone has an ax to grind.

I do not live in Miles City, never have. I have never met the mayor nor any of his opponents in the upcoming election. However, I DO have family there, and visit quite often. Miles is a great place.

Hmmmm. Huh, "C.Kee"? Perhaps you'd like to tell us about your real name and your relationship to Vickie? Nothing to hide, right?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
I have said my name on here before...Cindy Kee

[This message has been edited by C.Kee (7/15/2011)]

We could start here:

http://milescity.com/foru...pid=201611

I posted that for Tori. When she found her dog, she posted. What's the big deal? What are you looking for? I assure you I am not in politics.

[This message has been edited by C.Kee (7/15/2011)]

I asked you what your relationship was to "Tori" and you said you have no idea what I'm talking about. I point out that "dog at large" (oh, the irony) thread and THEN you admit "Tori" is a "friend".

I get the feeling that I'm not getting the whole truth.

I didn't feel I had the right to say who she was on a forum - her privacy - you know. You need to find something to do.

I will not waste my time with you and am calling Tori to advise her to do the same. Have a nice day.

[This message has been edited by C.Kee (7/15/2011)]

Sorry, Tori. I meant Toddlers & Tiaras.

C. Kee, Tori revealed her identity in this thread yesterday.

Tori, if you agree that we should not give trivial matters more press than they deserve (per your comment that has since been edited), why start this thread in the first place?

Yep, Denise, "C.Kee" already knew that which makes her follow-up statement even more confusing. Tangled web?

C.Kee wrote:

Why is Tori being called Vicki when she said her real name was Victoria?

Followed by:

C.Kee wrote:

I didn't feel I had the right to say who she was on a forum - her privacy - you know.

In trying to protect my friend, and curious as to why David was calling her Vicki, I am now at the center of wolves BUT you are all loyal friends of the mayor, should be proud of yourselves as you have managed to turn this forum COMPLETELY away from him. Great job! Guess that's why he's the mayor - he has a great support system. You all win. I will not return to this forum.

[This message has been edited by Tori (7/15/2011)]

Now I'm really confused.

Been a while since we've had a good thread like this. If it's any consolation, I think Joe Whalen is a communist. If I could vote for him, I wouldn't anyway (lying). I'm a bloodthirsty dick no matter who you are.

P.S. You will be missed.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (7/15/2011)]

Why David, can't you figure out who this is, you being so smart and all?

To be honest, this thread should never have been about him in the first place, and I would maintain that position for ANY Miles Citian running for office. A ticket of this nature is NOT newsworthy and nothing but a distraction from the real issues. If you have legitimate concerns regarding pertinent issues about a candidate, they should absolutely be scrutinized and discussed. Petty issues have no place in that discussion.

And a dictator Buck, don't forget that. He's a communist and a dictator....

>>He's a communist and a dictator....

I heard that he worked at Walmart and rode with Ted Kennedy at the Bucking Horse Sale.

I had to sign up for an account so I could post; does anyone have a life other than throwing stones. How sad.

I had to sign up so I could throw stones.

David Schott I believe you are on to something. C.Kee and Tori are one in the same. She has many names she goes by on Mc.com, oh the tangled web we weave for sure!!

Cindy Kee and Victoria Myers may inhabit two bodies, but it is clear that they are of one mind.

Unfortunately, in their case 1+1=0 when it comes to brains.

Since someone asked for proof of such statements, I submit everything that both of them have posted on this thread.

[This message has been edited by jlc (7/15/2011)]

It's hilarious to see someone have conniptions about Mayor Whalen getting a ticket for dog-at-large and then extolling the virtues of a previous mayor who cost the City hundreds of thousands of dollars for his transgressions and abuse of that office. And then, when confronted with facts, simply shrink away with a "Oh, I didn't know" response.

Tori, here's an old rule: Have your excrement together before you start throwing it around - otherwise it ends up in your face every time.

Speaking of transgressions and abuse, I saw this article in yesterday's Star:

http://www.milescitystar....php#story3

Wow. Just what we needed. MORE excrement being thrown around by someone who THINKS he has it together when the facts are not in his favor.

After reading that article, it's clear that Council President Mark Ahner has forgotten that old rule about flinging excrement. Otherwise, he would have never given such an inaccurate and one-sided view of the incident that resulted in a VERIFIED harrassment complaint. I won't be shocked or surprised if Mr. Ahner's own bull... er, excrement ... comes flying back at him in at least three ways:

1) Several other witnesses can easily dispute the statements made by Ahner and Uden (e.g., since when can a simple request be heard across the hall?),

2) He abused his access to the press at the expense of the aggrieved employee who doesn't enjoy such a privileged position, adding further insult to the injury he originally inflicted upon that City employee and providing that employee with potentially another cause for grievance,

and

3) He threw the door wide open for the Star to investigate his version of the incident, regardless of whether the harrassment file is opened or NOT. In fact, one could argue that by printing Mr. Ahner's one-sided version of the event, the Star has taken on the obligation to inform the public of the truth.

If the Star should accept its responsibility, it will soon find that the harrassment complaint is a symptom of a much bigger problem involving Mr. Ahner at City Hall, that being the inappropriate relationship between Mr. Ahner and the former City Clerk. Hours and hours of the Clerk's City-paid time was thrown away while the two engaged in unseemly activity at her desk, which virtually destroyed the morale of numerous City employees who had to witness it on an almost daily basis.

As part of her investigation, the Star reporter should ask three simple questions regardless of whether the harrassment file is opened or not:

1) Why would Mr. Ahner make such a special request (politely or not) on behalf of a City employee who gave less than 24-hours notice of resignation? (especially when that employee was in a position of great responsibility and whose abrupt departure exposed the City to significant problems and risks???)

2) If his military background left him with "a clear view of the supervisory chain of command, and [he knows] what it means to violate that supervisory chain of command, and [he] would not do that," then why-oh-why would he so blatantly violate the principle that officers (councilmen) should not fraternize with (woo!!!) the troops (City Clerk)? (Perhaps his recollection of military protocol isn't as good as he thinks it is - or perhaps there is a difference between the Honor Code and the Ahner Code.)

and

3) Is Mr. Ahner, who prides himself on safeguarding the City's finances and led the drive to censure the Mayor over an issue that resulted in no financial impact upon the City, willing to reimburse the City for the hours and hours of time that he and the City Clerk spent inappropriately talking about things other than City business during business hours?

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/15/2011)]

After hearing all the crap over the years about Mr. Ahner, I think he might be more trouble than he is worth....

There is a fourth item that should be investigated. If there was a quorum present at the going away party and it was decided at the party that a check should be cut immediately, do these actions violate the MT open meetings law. If that investigation determines the law was broken charges should be filed.
~~~~

Is there no one in Ward 3 with the balls to start a write-in candidacy and relieve Mr. Ahner of his office?

After hearing all the crap over the years about Mr. Ahner, I think he might be more trouble than he is worth

I remember discussion from a few church elder meetings in the mid-1980's where Mr. Ahner and his wife were at the center of some problems and discord. Turned out that those same issue had occurred in the church they attended in Bozeman prior to moving to

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (7/15/2011)]

Love that emote Richard... Very cool...

lets look at the facts that can be observed from afar. This strange man comes to town and opens up a halfassed bookstore/ebay broker of junk business which fails miserably. why did he pick miles city to become rich in when he had a wonderful managerial job as a garden center manager at a Home Depot. What more could anyone ask out of life than that? Thru a serendepitous series of events he becomes mayor of this city. Then we find out he has exposed the city to massive liability by driving city vehiciles and his own with no license or insurance for 9 months. He is censured by the Council when he should have been recalled by the citizens. Has anyone ever seen a resume or done a background investigation on this man who just happened to pick MC to open his thriving store? Then we read that he has issued a dictatorial order that no city employee is to communicate in any fashion with a Council member without his permission. I wonder if he has ever read or been trained in professional managment and the art of delegation and management by results not means. His style of micromanagement indicates an insecure mistrustful nature, in my opinion. He is not getting my vote.

I wonder if he has ever read or been trained in professional managment and the art of delegation and management by results not means. His style of micromanagement indicates an insecure mistrustful nature, in my opinion.

In other words, you'd prefer candidates with 60+ years of "ole boy network cronyism" that are insecure, mistrustful, micro-managers. That makes a lot of sense. The "he isn't from around here and doesn't hang out in one of the coffee-clatches at the 600 cafe" mentality is one of the main reasons why is in the economic condition it is in. The only reason any "micro-management" is perhaps necessary right now is due to council members perpetrating their "ole boy network cronyism" and acting as though they have authority that they really don't have. Throw these council members out of office and the need for "micro-management" will disappear.

Ding Ding Ding...We have a winner!

I believe Mr. Ahner has not been using his brain, but another part of his anatomy, to make his decisions lately.

way to go richard, you missed the whole point...think

I don't think he missed the point. The point is a fallacy.

BTW loulee, it looks like you joined just to post on this topic, judging from the time you joined and the time you first posted.

[This message has been edited by Kelly (7/16/2011)]

I think the mayor made the right decision by posting a brief to-the-point description of what happened and then avoiding this thread like the plague. Let it die already.

The matter of Joe Whalen's "background check" has already been discussed here before:

http://milescity.com/foru...pid=121808

loulee = butthurt wife of good ol' boy

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (7/16/2011)]

Ouch! Why are people picking on Loulee? When and why she joined is irrelevant. We all joined at one point for one reason or another. So I, for one, would like to say "Welcome Loulee."

(Unless Loulee is just another disguise for Tori/C.Kee - if so, that's low)

Re: mayoral or council candidates - Nobody's perfect, and each candidate reflects a different balance of medicine vs. poison for the aches and ills that bedevil Miles City at the present. Loulee has every right to voice her issues with Joe or any other candidate in this forum (as long as she isn't making them up) - just as she has the right to advocate for who she considers the better candidate.

If Loulee looks at the current mayor and sees more poison than medicine, then she has a right to express that opinion without being pounced upon.

(Edit: I do wish she would do it less hysterically, however. She definitely has a flair for dramatic exaggeration! On the other hand, it appears that I am congenitally unable to write a short post, so we all have our weaknesses.)

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/16/2011)]

No matter how long or short, I always enjoy your posts, my friend Steve...

Well, since nobody else has responded to Loulee's post in a substantial way, I guess I will. Mind you, I am no longer a citizen of Miles City and I have no dog in the hunt when it comes to whether or not Joe Whalen remains mayor or not. I know Joe well but we are not what I would consider close friends by any means. I knew him as an employee of the City, a regular attendee of Open Mic, and we once rafted down the Yellowstone with a large group of folks, but we weren't in the same raft.

Still, I think those experiences qualify me to provide a close-up perspective to the things that Loulee has viewed "from afar". Those are her words, not mine. I'll continue to use her words in this post thru the "quote" function.

Thru a serendepitous series of events he becomes mayor of this city.

I find this an interesting choice of words since the "serendepitous" [sic] events that Loulee refers to reflect the exact reason why Mr. Grenz should never even consider another run at public office. As mayor, Joe Whalen's actions always resulted in saving the City money - not costing it hundreds of thousands of dollars to settle lawsuits.

Then we find out he has exposed the city to massive liability by driving city vehiciles and his own with no license or insurance for 9 months.

Joe admitted lack of judgment re: the driver's license/liability insurance issue. He also explained the circumstances which, though not an excuse, provided sufficient cause for most reasonable people to understand how and why he was driving without a license and insurance. The City's attorney explained that the City's liability was rather minimal, not "massive." And that was academic anyway since Joe was not involved in any accidents which I attribute to the fact that he was a very careful driver regardless of whether he was in a city vehicle or his own.

He is censured by the Council when he should have been recalled by the citizens.

I agree that Joe should not have been censured by the Council, mainly because the Council had no such power under Montana law and the offense was minor by any standard of the law. Add to that the many times that the Councilman who led that particular initiative has also led the Council to blindly conduct various aspects of its business with callous disregard for local and state laws, and its clear that the Council lacked the moral qualifications to censure anyone. As to the idea of a recall by the citizens, that would have been a very expensive proposition. The upcoming REGULAR election can serve that purpose: If the citizens don't want Joe as mayor, they can say so now without incurring any additional (and unnecessary) expense.

** (edit/note: When I say "Council" here, I mean the Council as a whole. I observed several individual councilmembers who regularly exerted great energy and effort to comply with pertinent laws and take truly just and wise actions. Ackerman, Thibault, and Partridge come to mind most readily in this regard, and I apologize for including them in the "broad stroke" above.)

Has anyone ever seen a resume or done a background investigation on this man who just happened to pick MC to open his thriving store?

It is easy to detect your personal spite in this comment. As mentioned above, Joe's background has been explored previously and nothing (NOTHING!) of concern arose. If you are going to demand a background investigation of Joe, I hope 1) that you would demand an investigation of all candidates regardless of where they grew up (otherwise you are letting your xenophobia show thru big-time), and 2) you are willing to have your tax dollars fund those investigations.

Then we read that he has issued a dictatorial order that no city employee is to communicate in any fashion with a Council member without his permission.

I was an employee at the City when this directive was issued by the Mayor. Under Miles City's charter, the Mayor is the Chief Executive Officer and thus has responsibility for how the City's business is conducted. The Council is a legislative body responsible for setting policy and budgets. They have no managerial authority. Some councilmembers don't get that distinction, and unfortunately one manager in particular (the former City Clerk) was definitely unclear on that concept as well. Joe's memo cleared that up. And Loulee is very mistaken on a critical point: Joe didn't prohibit conversations between the council and employees; he simply required that all conversations of business-related matters be reported to him. In other words, he was fulfilling his duty as CEO to know what was going on. I've seen other CEOs take far more draconian measures to be sure that they are "in the loop" on things. Joe provided more flexibility to the Council members and employees than some of them deserved under the circumstances. Finally, I spoke with more than one of the managers who were consistently hassled by overreaching councilmembers, and you know what? They LIKED the memo!!!

His style of micromanagement indicates an insecure mistrustful nature, in my opinion.

Interesting you fault Joe for micromanagement as a CEO right after faulting him for taking action to curtail the completely inappropriate micromanagement by Councilmembers. Yes, I said micromanagement by Councilmembers. For instance, Mr. Uden's attempts to direct the police chief and Mr. Ahner's attempts to control the Finance department (don't get me started on his daily visits with the then City Clerk - oh, too late!). And regarding former mayor and current candidate Butch Grenz, how about his famous attempt to dismantle the fire department? That involved more than micromanagement, wouldn't you say? I suppose what it really comes down to is simply this: Anyone looking for a mayoral candidate that is immune from accusations of micromanaging is pretty much bound to be disappointed and may as well set out all future elections. Which would be dumb, right?

As for the rest of Loulee's statement re: insecurities, etc.: Micromanaging may be one sin, but openly practicing arm-chair psychiatry from "afar" should be the eighth deadly sin - in my opinion, anyway.

------------

In the end, I support and encourage Loulee and all other citizens of Miles City to exercise their right (and DUTY) to vote for the best candidate - whoever he/she/they think that is. But whenever someone enters the voting booth, I hope they take with them as much knowledge and awareness as possible and leave their fears, prejudices and half-truths at home. To do any less is a disservice to the candidates, their fellow citizens, and democracy as a whole.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/17/2011)]

Steve, once again, I have to give you props for clear vision and an excellent post!

And short, Dona. Don't forget short, cuz "concise" is my forte!
Seriously - Thanks.

Well, since nobody else has responded to Loulee's post in a substantial way, I guess I will.

Umm.... I think I did by not accepting the faulty premise in the first place.

And that's valid for you, Richard, cuz you know that the majority of Loulee's post was based on false premises and half-of-the-story.

But there are a lot of folks who might not be familiar with the "other half". Hopefully they will find helpful at least some of the info that was included in my response to Loulee.

good post Steve..

But I have a question which arises from a certain word you used:

What if I have a Xenophobic Dog?

Keep him on a leash. If you let a xenophobic dog run at-large, a ticket will be the least of your worries!

edit: Oh, and if that xenophobe of yours happens to be a bitch (which most are, regardless of sex), then name it Xena!

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/17/2011)]

Steve, if we accept your line of reasoning, then why are we encouraged to contact members of Congress if we have a problem. We then expect them to contact the appropriate person in the executive branch to help us. It is called democracy. In law school we learn to always prepare for the worst possible event and protect against it or suffer the consequences. The fact that the mayor did not run over a kid or kill a bus full of nuns does not excuse his knowly breaking the law and exposing himself and the city to liability. Sometimes being a careful driver does not save an unfortunate incident. Lets be thankful that it turned out to be incident free. It is ridiculous to think the President would issue an order that someone at BLM couldnt respond to Testor, Baucus or Rehberg or not appear at a congressional hearing. The city government has a legislative, executive and judicial branch too. Oh, excuse me, I forgot about executive privilage.

You seem to be forgetting a lot of things, Loulee. And you've exposed your very poor understanding of law, government and professional management. I feel no obligation to help you review (or perhaps learn) the rudimentary basics of administrative law, governmental structure, or Management 101 --- (edit) but against my better judgement (and because I have nothing better to do at the moment) here goes:

1. Congressional officials provide constituent services, as do councilmembers. I don't see where this fact is even pertinent to the issues discussed above. When elected officials approach a federal, state or local agency on behalf of a constituent, it isn't "democracy" per se (that is how we elect officials to pass laws) -- it is called "advocacy" and it does NOT include directing the departments to take action - it involves making sure the client was given due consideration. If Congress suspects that the executive branch is not implementing policy as intended, it can investigate.** At no point does a member of the legislative branch - Senate, House, City Council, etc. - have any authority to direct or manage even the lowest employee on the totem pole of any executive department. if you have studied any law at all, you should understand that. In fact, if you passed high school civics, you should understand that.

(** Note that I used the word CONGRESS here. No member of Congress can initiate an investigation individually - investigations must be initiated by a body of Congress, usually through a committee with the blessing of Congressional leadership.)

2. Apparently you missed the valid point in my first response to you that the Mayor's directive to City employees DID NOT prevent communication between employees and councilmembers. But he would have had that power if he had wanted. And if you think any member of an executive branch department appears before Congress to testify without first getting the permission of the White House (usually through the cabinet level appointee with authority over that department), then you just plain don't understand how government agencies function. And if you don't understand that, then you really have no business criticizing how Mayor Whalen has run City Hall in an efficient yet very democratic manner. It's a difficult balance to find.

I agree with you that it was fortunate that no accidents occurred while Joe was operating a City vehicle with no insurance. But judges are allowed to consider the circumstances, and when I look at the whole picture and the otherwise good job Joe did (and continues to do) as mayor, I don't think he committed an impeachable offense or "high crime" - especially when compared to the transgressions of members of the Council. (Need I remind you that several members of Congress have resigned for lesser things than Mr. Ahner has done during his recent tenure. I only bring this up because he is the one who led the censure charge, which I find highly hypocritical.) So, in my book, belaboring the "no insurance" misdemeanor is making a mountain out of a molehill. You are certainly free to disagree.

All things considered, I stand by my post.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/17/2011)]

Let's take a moment to review this fine thread:

1. Anonymous user "Tori" comes on to "tsk, tsk" the mayor getting a dog-at-large citation.
2. Anonymous user "C.Kee" who might be *really good friends* with "Tori" offers a disapproving, "hmmmm".
3. Anonymous user "Tori" implies she is approaching sainthood with her lifelong good behavior.
4. "Tori" and "C.Kee" don't really wish to discuss the matter of "Tori's" own dog being at-large.
5. Not-so-anonymous user "Tori" aka "Victoria Myers" comes on and boos the mayor for posting to this forum on city time.
6. Steve Allison points out the mayor position is part-time and the mayor is putting in more hours than past mayors. "Tori", who admittedly "don't know anything about the candidates other than the current one has been in past news" "apoligizes" [sic] for trying to make an issue of when the mayor posts.
7. Anonymous user "TJO" also piles on the mayor for watching YouTube on his lunch break. No apology from "TJO".
8. Anonymous user "TJO" continues to bash the current mayor for having the lowest paid police force in the state and, despite having a budget in the black, the mayor refuses to give the cops a pay raise.
9. Steve Allison points out that "TJO" is incorrect, the mayor negotiated a raise for the cops, but the city council took it away. No apology from "TJO".
10. Anonymous user "SLJ" comes on and declares that he/she will not vote for the mayor because he spends all his time arguing on milescity.com.
11. Devon Banister comes on and points out that he can't find a single instance of the mayor "arguing" on milescity.com in the past 12 months. No rebuttal or apology from "SLJ".
12. Anonymous user "loulee" comes on and says the mayor forbade interaction between city councilmembers and city staff.
13. Former City employee Steve Craddock points out that the mayor didn't forbid interaction, only requested to be briefed about interaction that occurs on city time.
14. Anonymous user "loulee" comes back and seemingly reasserts that the mayor forbade interaction between city councilmembers and city staff, "It is ridiculous to think the President would issue an order that someone at BLM couldnt respond to Testor [sic], Baucus or Rehberg or not appear at a congressional hearing."

There must be something about being anonymous that emboldens people to act like fruity flakes. Either that or fruity flakes favor anonymity (can't blame them).

Here's something to try folks. Create an account here using your real name. Then make a post that goes something like this:

"I support candidate X for mayor of Miles City because: [now list the candidate's positive attributes that you think qualify them for the job]"

Or, if you like to focus on the negative, that's fine:

"I do not support candidate x because: [now list the candidate's negative attributes that you think preclude them from the job]"

But, please, make sure you have your facts straight before you post.

[This message has been edited by David Schott (7/17/2011)]

mr craddock, you seem like a nice fellow and i have no desire to argue whether my political science undergraduate major makes me devoid of any knowledge of government and i have absolutely no knowledge of which head Mr. Ahner thinks with. I fail to see why smearing him absolves the mayor of deliberately breaking the law and hiding it for months. Flirting with a city clerk, as previous threads insinuate of Mr. Ahner, is not a crime as far as I know. Since I have never met either gentleman, it just seems to me that a long term criminal act is worse than inappropriate flirting. Thank you for the honest discussion. By the way, what happened to the Michelle Bachman forum? There is nothing worse that a know-it-all holier-than-thou teabagger.

Hmm. I wonder where that former City Clerk is these days.

I'll tell you where its going.Steve and dave are a couple of nerds that have nothing to do but run their pie holes.If they have a problem with that I would be glad to meet them and shut them up.

More big talk from anonymous.

"pie holes" indeed.

You're a punk to.

I can't believe Alyce Jerrel is threatening to shut my piehole. Must be Joe instead.

Loulee,
If you are a PoliSci undergrad, then I am ashamed to admit that I hold a B.S. in PoliSci, as well as a Masters degree. It would work in your favor to proofread your posts for grammatical errors, brevity and your general inability to make your statements relevant to the topic at hand. I believe it would hold more weight, as it were, despite any disagreement.

As far as the Mayor and the issues of his candidacy or personal life: I know enough about the situation to know I don't know enough about the situation. Wouldn't your studies assure that you are aware of this as well, and the need to remain silent, rather than appear ignorant?

By the way, Jade is my real name.

See,You're a nerd! Still wana meet?

Is that a threat, Joe Jerrel?

It has always been known that a person with intelegence is a "nerd." But a person who has no intelegence, example: mtgman, is a jackass.

boys, boys, LouLee is my real name, Jade. Lordy, pileing on an ole lady? It has been fun. I didn't realize this was English Composition class or I would have been more careful. My three degrees have nothing to do with my education. Life and learning about the personalities of people is education. Oh, Jade none of my degrees are in spelling. I had professionals do that for me before i defended. Have a nice day, Steve. I can tell you are a progressive man. I wish you all the best.

My three degrees have nothing to do with my education

University Of Phoenix? Or Brown Mackie?

The School of Hardknocks, Bridgier. The School of Hardknocks.

Hi LouLee,

I'll just respond to the two items that you addressed to me. I have no intention of smearing Mr. Ahner - Mr. Ahner has done that to himself. My sole goal is to hold Mr. Ahner accountable for his actions and let the public know that the functioning of City Hall was severely disrupted for many months because of the inappropriate relationship between him and the City Clerk. If he had limited his behavior to mere "flirting", as you have so casually termed it (from afar again, I might add), then it wouldn't really matter to me. In fact, if he and Ms. Pray had legitimized their personal relationship and taken steps to separate it from their professional responsibilities, I would have been fine with that. But they didn't and the damage they caused in lost time, lost productivity, low morale, and finally the abuse and harrassment of a fine City employee in the exercise of her duties is NOT TOLERABLE. Again, U.S. congressmen have resigned and a president was impeached over such shenanigans and the lies and manipulations that inevitable go along with them. Why do you find that so easy to dismiss?

The fact that Mr. Ahner used a City Council meeting to further distort the facts surrounding his relationship with Ms. Pray further legitimizes the discussion of his behaviors in this public forum. Mr. Ahner asked for special treatment of a person he had a special relationship with. According to statements from other knowledgable and trustworthy people, he orchestrated an illegal vote of the Council to provide that special treatment. And in trying to provide that special treatment, he violated city policy and state law as well as mistreated a good City employee.

Ideally those facts and others will be sought out and printed by a professional reporter at the Miles City Star or Billings Gazette. But I'm not counting on that, so I write about it here on MC.com. As a FORMER city employee, I'm in a unique position to speak the truth about what went on at City Hall on a daily basis for a long, long time. It wasn't pretty, it occurred deliberately over an extended period, and it turned a great place to work into a hellhole. And although it's hard to quantify it in financial terms, those things cost the City real money.

You seem like a very nice lady, too, and I take no pleasure in calling you on your statements. But once again I think you mischaracterize Joe's motor vehicle law violations as a criminal act. Both violations were misdemeanors, nobody was hurt and the city suffered no financial loss. I concur that, as you correctly pointed out, the potential for such was there. But the potential risk in the studied opinion of the City's attorney, who conferred with the City's risk pool manager, was not "massive" as you stated earlier, but was in fact marginal.

In the end, one thing is clear. Mr. Whalen and Mr. Ahner have both acted in ways that they shouldn't have. They have to obey all the same laws we "little people" do. Their offices make them no bigger and certainly no better than the rest of us. My point is Mr. Whalen admitted his transgressions and took immediate action to pay his fines and make right his wrongs. Mr. Ahner has yet to take responsibility for anything. That, to me, makes him less honorable than Mayor Whalen. Apparently you think differently.

So, I guess we agree to disagree like civilized people often do. Which is fine. Perhaps we should both turn our attention to teaching MtManchild (or whatever he is) just how important that concept is.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/17/2011)]

I didn't realize there was a degree field for spelling. However, your age is irrelevant, as is mine. I am not as young, or as liberal as some people think. If you missed my point, then my attempts to throw you a bone went by the wayside.

Certainly, as a PoliSci undergrad you would agree that command of the English language would add to your credibility? English 101 is a still a prerequisite, I imagine.

Perhaps I should check out one of those diploma mills.

my goodness, steve, I was only going by the posted threads. I had no idea that Mr. Ahner was the nefarious scalawag you paint him to be. It apparenty was more than innocent inappropriate flirting. I am sorry i understated the situation. OH, I understand the mayor went without license and insurance for 9 months and didn't come forward voluntarily. Am I wrong in that too?

Am I wrong in stating that you masturbate while watching kittens suffer?

No, LouLee, you aren't wrong about the mayor not coming forward voluntarily. He was issued a citation for driving without a license and not having valid insurance. The next day (or maybe even that night) he offered his resignation to council, but the resignation was not immediate and never took effect (long story there0. What was immediate and effective is that he pled guilty to the charges, paid his fines, and walked to work until he was able to clear up the administrative redtape problems that were the root cause for him not getting his license in the first place.

So, I'm not saying the Mayor was blameless in letting a problem become a moving violation of Montana's motor vehicle laws. It's clear that he made a big mistake. But it's also clear that he took responsibility for that mistake and made things right as quickly as he could. That's what big people do.

Mark Ahner hasn't done anything but deny and obfuscate. He reminds me of the Governor character in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas who sings a song called The Sidestep in which he artfully dodges all questions about (and responsibility for) his actions. It's time for Ahner to man up and resign. Instead he's running for re-election. It's hard to believe anyone could be that small....
_____________

P.S. Pay no attention to Buck. Sometimes he's hilarious - the funniest man on MC.com (whereas Ricardo is the punniest). Unfortunately, now is not one of those times.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (7/17/2011)]

Remember, it is not slander if you can prove it. Since Buck said last night he was a founding father, I wonder if he and Ben were friends. Ben had a misplaced sense of humor too.

Puns are for children, not groan readers.

i just had to say i miss you Steve. Thank god you still post on this site.

Hi Kmama - I miss you guys, too - more than you know. For one thing, I don't think there is a single belly dancer in all of Elko - let alone one who goes everywhere with her own budding baseball team in tow!

Ditto on the thank God for Steve and his very concise and great posts...Best writer on this web site bar none!!

lol, and those boys can dance too! you should see the oldest do his "tummy roll". btw, this thread is slightly amusing but also extremely depressing...your posts are the only reason i kept reading.

Ricardo - that may be your best one yet. Do all of us MC.commies a favor and make a pilgrimage to Austin some spring to enter the O.Henry Pun Off.
http://www.punpunpun.com/

LouLee said

Remember, it is not slander if you can prove it.

I guess your three degrees didn't teach you the difference between slander and libel.

Aw c'mon Steve, you're wasting civilized discourse where masturbation jokes belong.

Come on people let it go!!!!!!!!

Let it go??? This is just starting to get good!

After coming off a four day Smith River float trip, reading a good old fashion mc.com thread like this is hilarious.

Particularly this nugget:

why did he pick miles city to become rich in when he had a wonderful managerial job as a garden center manager at a Home Depot. What more could anyone ask out of life than that?

That is just way too funny.

let it go

Or you'll ALL GO BLIND!!!!

How did this thread descend into Wanker Madness so quickly?

I agree with Glenna - time to let this go - or at least let the professionals take over. Are you listening Star and Gazette and Eastern Montana News people?

As for the libel/slander distinction, neither one is pertinent here. As I've said before, my intent here is not to slander anyone and everything I've said is true. The information I've provided has either been previously reported in the Douglas newspaper or the Star, and/or can be verified by many other witnesses. Mr. Ahner is the one who motivated me to "go public" with this. His misleading public statement at the last City Council meeting where he virtually called the victim of this whole unseemly affair a liar is inexcusable. If he is going to misuse a public forum to spread his skewed version of events, then it is only fair that the rest of the story be shared in a public forum as well. Equal time and all that.

And finally, thank you Buck for proving me right. You are the funniest man on MC.com. Well, you and Frank Hardy (but I haven't seen him around for a while). Keep up the good work!

We are listening, Steve. Unfortunately, we already reported what Whalen said and what Ahner said and what Uden said and no one else has stepped forward voluntarily to tell us on the record exactly what they said or heard. Sometimes it's a bummer to report only what other people say rather than what we'd like them to say. To my knowledge, the investigation report is not public information in order to protect the identity of the city employee who filed the complaint. (That is to my knowledge - I could be wrong, and I don't cover the city.)

Also a bummer - the only good councilman you mentioned who is still on the council is Partridge, and your old friend Mary Elizabeth is running against him. Oh, Miles City!

Hi Mandyrosy - It sure is good to hear from you. I understand that it's a bummer to have witnesses who don't feel at ease about reporting the facts they know. But it's even a bigger bummer to be one of those witnesses and have to stay quiet or risk recrimination. That's why I feel it's my duty to speak out. I'm one of the few who witnessed the truth in this matter who can speak freely about it. BUT remember - I'm not the only former employee and/or official who no longer works at City Hall. There are plenty of others who can verify the facts as I've related them in this thread. The harrassment complaint isn't even the most important issue at this point - it's the events leading up to the harrassment that should be of real concern to the tax-paying public.

As for the Ward II race, I do respect Mr. Partridge for trying hard to make the right decisions and take proper action as a councilman. But - paying tribute to him for being a good elected official in the past isn't quite the same thing as saying he is the best candidate to lead Miles City into the future.

"They stabbed it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast." - appropriate Eagles for this thread.

That's because there's so much dirty laundry!

...