So the president is proposing using the NG to guard the border. Clearly, this is a political move to try and keep some neo-cons in the fold. It amounts to symbolism over substance. He should have put all of Ft Bliss and Ft Huachuca on red alert. Homeland Security should start at home.

He also said: "It is neither wise nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States and send them across the border".

I disagree. It works very well for Mexico!

Maybe 2008 some of you will quit voting on party lines and we can elect someone who will bring some real change. (I am not holding my breath)

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 5/15/2006).]

no, please...feel free to hold your breath

Richard: See, there are things on which we agree! The pres's plan just attempts to pander to neo-con whiners. In the meantime real terrorists are yucking it up, gleefully watching us chase our tail, contentedly realizing that the pres and the veep are so worried about their own political base that they are willing to divert precious military resources and power to try to assuage the xenophobes. How many of the perpetrators of the greatest acts of terrorism on U.S. soil entered the country from Mexico? Let's see. The 9/11 hijackers? No. McVeigh-Nichols? No. The blind sheikh and his posse? No. Most terrorist organizations that can or could pull-off catastrophic attacks (Al-Qaeda, the IRA, ETA, etc.) have (or had) the operational and technical sophistication to get around the sentry peering across vast stretches of wasteland. They learned operational-intelligence tradecraft from the masters.

On a side note, there is not much at Fort Bliss and Fort Huachuca to do what you are suggesting and have suggested in the past. There are many troops going through formal training to "earn" their occupational specialty. I think there are plans to station more troops at Bliss in the future, but that is still in the works. And, red alert? That sounds so . . . Palmeresque!

Let me preface this-I am a radical.

I think the terrorist paranoia is a stretch for why the border needs to be closed. It's a problem for sure but...

It comes down to draining our resources and our pockets via services and taxes.
Here in Nevada we have schools that are 80% illegal alien. We teach them English as a SECOND language. We feed them for free. We open our hospital doors free. The police here will not write them tickets because they have no insurance, but they have a driver's license.
They can't read in either language. If they want to come here I'm all for them bettering themselves. Come with skills, a job, and at least an understanding of our language.
I know tons of Latinos. They are not just from Ol' Mexico.They are my friends, customers, and some of the hardest working folks I know. Some of them have 3 jobs. Menial stuff because they have no skills. Most are here legally and speak our language and are proud to say they ARE American or almost. They want to close the border to illegal immigration also. They pay taxes and are feeling the burden too! They mostly got here the right way with the proper innoculations and papers.
We have laws on our books that require every child to be immunized.
Our schools are rampant with children un-protected and that puts the general population ar risk. We immunize for free. The schools can not, BY LAW, turn them in to INS.
Amnesty? You bet if you can prove you have been here 10 years. Otherwise send 'em home.
Mumps outbreak in Iowa- traced back to illegals...
Shoot the coyotes. Right in front of the illegals. Make it a felony to cross illegally.
Radically speaking... let's build a double fence, fifty feet apart, 25' high, across the entire border and lay anti personel mines liberally... and make them come here correctly so we know who they are and if they are disease free. Be a helluva lot cheaper than sending the National Guard in and we all know that is just some punkass talk to get us off the issue.

Again, I wish every person the ability to better themself.
Do it right so we can handle the influx.
Vote Independent.
George Bush is an idiot. Thanks for Iraq, dumbass.
Support our troops everywhere.

There's a very simple market solution to the problem of illegals.

First, tighten up the government's side by ensuring everyone who's having payroll taxes withheld is actually eligible to work (via social security number or work visa database.) This would make it very difficult for someone to present fraudulent paperwork to the employer.

Then, make it very very expensive to get caught employing an illegal. No slaps on the wrist. Big time fines would make sure the incentive to pay an illegal under the table isn't worth the risk. You could maybe schedule the fine amounts in gradually if that would make the transition easier.

All this is pretty easily accomplished with pretty much the laws we've got on the books already. It's just not very politically correct.

The real problem is enforcement. Why go to all the trouble of fencing off the border when the only thing that can really work is to cut off the incentive.

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (edited 5/17/2006).]

AH-HA! It is possible to agree with you, Rick. Enforce the rules against EMPLOYERS. Of course, this would mean some big businesses might get hit with fines and we all know, what is good for big bizness is all that counts in DC these days.

Amorette

Another issue, as in the case of Wal-Mart, is that the suits don't really have control over the low level hiring of illegals. The buck can only be passed so far and they will fight it, but I suppose it's still a viable idea.

"Why go to all the trouble of fencing off the border when the only thing that can really work is to cut off the incentive."


A fence and routine patrol of it by our Apache helicopters WILL cut off the incentive.

I heard the half-shrub deny that we were militarizing out borders. It is like saying that you are sending Bud Light instead of Bud and denying you are putting beer on the border. And why would we be so weak as to apologies for using our military in this situation? Every other nation in the world uses their military in this fashion. That is what they are for.

And yes, we should fine employers, too.



[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (edited 5/18/2006).]

I also am a huge fan of just enforcing the frigging rules we already have. Seems so simple yet they make it so damn hard.

All pretty good ideas. I personally love the idea of a fence. It is a one time expense, while our National Guard will have to be there forever, without a fence in place. Granted, this is the job of the National Guard, but our weekend warriors would rather be at home with loved ones, and doing their civilian jobs for an actual paycheck. I also love the idea of heavily fining the holy hell out of anyone, and I mean anyone that employs anybody that cannot prove citizenship. The bottom line is always the bottom line, and some ridiculously insane fines will bring corporate America around in a hurry. And the problem is not just corporate America. Lots of Americans employ illegal aliens as cheap labor. Trimming the shrubs, (pun intended), watching the kids, and too many other jobs to even begin to mention.

[This message has been edited by Matt Schmitz (edited 5/18/2006).]

Too bad those bastards know how to dig.

Richard - No such thing as Red Alert.

One of the "frigging" laws we have is called Posse Comitatus - on the books since 1878. It doesn't allow federal troops to be the "police" inside our borders, so Ft Huachuca and Ft Bliss Soldiers are not an option. The US is one of the few nations that doesn't allow this - the intent was to keep the military from taking over the government. NG troops are not federalized and have been on the border for various projects since the early 90s - not policing, but building roads, walls and gathering info.

Of course, it's hard to complain about business providing incentives for illegals when our own Democratic party is so willing to take that on themselves.

That's right, the "save Social Security" folks, in their effort to "curb illegal immigration", have proven that they really don't care to do either one by ensuring that illegals should qualify for social security despite their under-the-table status.

Senate Democrats voted 39-5 to make sure illegals had the key to the good ol' social security "lock box"

Republicans voted 44-11 to try to stop it (and came one vote short)

http://www.senate.gov/leg...vote=00130

Next time you see Senator Baucus, thank him for working hard for more handouts to those who shouldn't even be here.

It's another perfect example. Sure you can say elections should be a nice-guy contest, but reality check: Party affiliation makes a difference. Why else would Baucus want to hand our retirement money to illegals? Because that was the party-line vote, and he marched lock step.

Of course, another story the media doesn't seem to see as newsworthy.

They're too busy inventing their own news to bury GW:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/n...south_dc_1

I don't know why you persist in labeling them as "liberals" and "conservatives" when they are all laying in the same bed. It's not the liberals trying to screw us, nor is it the conservatives, it's the POLITICIANS that are ruining us.
As long as we continue to listen to their rhetoric and argue amongst ourselves about what the *other side* is doing they get their way. They win. People need to get the wool out of their eyes and stop being sheep.

One of our Inspectors shared a solution for 3 of our country's problems.

1. The New Orleans levy.
2. The Florida alligator situation.
3. And the Illegals that cross the border.

Dig a moat along the border, dump the dirt in New Orleans, transport the gators to the moat.