....just a little something to make you anti-immigration folks happy...

Today at the school in Aurora, CO where I work, Mexican children waved their Mexican flags around yelling "USA is GAY" during recess.

I asked them why they don't go back to Mexico if it is truely "da bomb"? They said they would if they could, I said I would call IMS for them if they needed a lift to get back there. With that they ran away shouting "Viva Mexico" and "USA is GAY"

Tonight should be a party on Federal Blvd....just watch out for the bullets falling out of the sky

A game to help celebrate:
http://nerdnirvana.org/g4...patrol.htm

Charlie Daniels on Mexicans
By Charlie Daniels www.charliedaniels.com


Mexican Standoff

I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but to me I think Hispanic people in this country, legally or illegally, made a huge public relations mistake with their recent demonstrations.

I don't blame anybody in the world for wanting to come to the United States of America, as it is a truly wonderful place. But when the first thing you do when you set foot on American soil is illegal, it is flat out wrong and I don't care how many lala land left heads come out of the woodwork and start trying to give me sensitivity lessons.

I don't need sensitivity lessons, in fact I don't have anything against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals and anybody who comes into this country illegally is a criminal and if you don't believe it try coming into America from a foreign country without a passport and see how far you get.

What disturbs me about the demonstrations is that it's tantamount to saying, "I am going to come into your country even if it means breaking your laws and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's an "in your face" action and speaking just for me I don't like it one little bit and if there were a half dozen pairs of gonads in Washington bigger than English peas it wouldn't be happening.

Where are you, you bunch of lilly-livered, pantywaist, forked-tongued, sorry excuses for defenders of The Constitution? Have you been drinking the water out of the Potomac again?

And even if you pass a bill on immigration it will probably be so pork laden and watered down that it won't mean anything anyway. Besides, what good is an other law going to do when you won't enforce the ones on the books now?

And what ever happened to the polls guys? I thought you folks were the quintessential finger-wetters. Well you sure ain't paying any attention to the polls this time because somewhere around eighty percent of Americans want something done about this mess, and mess it is and getting bigger everyday.

This is no longer a problem, it is a dilemma and headed for being a tragedy. Do you honestly think that what happened in France with the Muslims can't happen here when the businesses who hire these people finally run out of jobs and a few million disillusioned Hispanics take to the streets?

If you, Mr. President, Congressmen and Senators, knuckle under on this and refuse to do something meaningful it means that you care nothing for the kind of country your children and grandchildren will inherit

But I guess that doesn't matter as long as you get re-elected. Shame on you.

One of the big problems in America today is that if you have the nerve to say anything derogatory about any group of people (except Christians) you are going to be screamed at by the media and called a racist, a bigot and anything else they can think of to call you.

Well I've been pounded by the media before and I'm still rockin' and rollin' and when it comes to speaking the truth I fear not. And the truth is that the gutless, gonadless, milksop politicians are just about to sell out the United States of America because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the face reality.

And reality is that we would never allow any other group of people to have 12 million illegals in this country and turn around and say, "Oh it's ok, ya'll can stay here if you'll just allow us to slap your wrist."

And I know that some of you who read this column are saying "Well what's wrong with that?"

I'll tell you what's wrong with it. These people could be from Mars as far as we know. We don't know who they are, where they are or what they're up to and the way the Congress is going we're not going to.

Does this make sense? Labor force you say? We already subsidize corporate agriculture as it is, must we subsidize their labor as well?

If these people were from Haiti would we be so fast to turn a blind eye to them or if they were from Somalia or Afghanistan? I think not.

All the media shows us are pictures of hard working Hispanics who have crossed the border just to try to better their life. They don't show you pictures of the Feds rounding up members of MS 13, the violent gang who came across the same way the decent folks did. They don't tell you about the living conditions of the Mexican illegals some fat cat hired to pick his crop.

I want to make two predictions. No. 1: This situation is going to grow and fester until it erupts in violence on our streets while the wimps in Washington drag their toes in the dirt and try to figure how many tons of political hay they can make to the acre.

No 2: Somebody is going to cross that border with some kind of weapon of mass destruction and set it off in a major American city after which there will be a backlash such as this country has never experienced and the Capitol building in Washington will probably tilt as Congressmen and Senators rush to the other side of the issue.

I don't know about you but I would love to see just one major politician stand up and say, "I don't care who I make mad and I don't care how many votes I lose, this is a desperate situation and I'm going to lead the fight to get it straightened out."

I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America, but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others.

And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes. Please get that other one out of my face.

Pray for our troops

What do you think?

God Bless America
Charlie Daniels
April 10, 2006

Charlie Daniels for President!

That's a great story deer slayer. You sound like a wonderful teacher, really professional.

Ironically, Cinco de Mayo isn't celebrated in Mexico. They have an Independence Day celebration in September but don't "do" the May 5 thing. That's strictly a U.S. holiday. And if you decide to drop Cinco de Mayo as a nasty "Mexican" tradition, then you better be prepared to toss St. Patrick's Day because it is celebrated by those awful "Irish." (Irish need not apply signs used to be common in the eastern U.S. because "Catholic" Irish were seen as almost subhuman.) Better get rid of Christmas, as it is based on German tradition.

Close up the Sons of Norway lodge. Those folks are celebrating non-U.S. events. Get rid of the Knights of Columbus. He was ITALIAN you know! No more Octoberfest celebrations. Tell the folks in Red Lodge to stop that International thing they do. We better to stick to strictly AMERICAN tradition. NOTHING FOREIGN.

In fact. . .get rid of all European/Asian traditions and get back to our roots. If it wasn't celebrated by the Native Americans, it isn't a true American custom.

For heaven's sake people, what is wrong with CELEBRATING the melting pot that is America? We aren't natives. We are all immigrants so let's accept that, skip the bigotry and arrogance, and deal with reality. Besides, I love the excuse to eat Mexican food.

Of course, what WE eat ain't Mexican but that's another issue. . .

Well said Amorette.

My grandparents came to this country and had to sign away all loyalty to their home country. They CHOSE to become legal Americans. Yet we still treasure things from their home countries such as foods, traditions, etc. The main difference is they came here to become Americans and learned to speak English. They didn't DEMAND that America bowed down to their homeland and provide everything in their native language. I just don't understand why some people think that people flat protesting and saying they are not going to abide by our laws makes them so special and important that other legal Americans feel the need to support their illegal ways. I'm sure that people who have been here 30 and 40 years (as many say they have) that somewhere in that amount of time they had the opportunity to try and become legal citizens. They chose not to. They didn't sign the documents, vow their allegiance to our country, or any of the other things that legal immigrants have to do. They do not deserve special treatment.

Well said Kacey.

Buck...thanks for the vote of confidence. It means alot to me to have your approval. By the way what did you do to celebrate the 5th of May?

I cruised Federal, drank with the Mexicans and ate tacos at the local hispanic bar. My white friends and I shouted "Viva Mexico!"... (not "USA is GAY" or "Mexico is GAY"), and had a grand old time with the illegals. They were happy to see us and we were happy to be there.

The whole point of my story when I started this thread was to point out that there is some backlash from people in this country towards the illegals that don't articulate their message very well. As the people of this website have shown. I personally love Mexicans (except for the one who shot a .22 in side of my truck)...glad to have 'em here, except when they shout out things that are anti-America. That pisses me off. They can shout all the pro-Mexican stuff they want.

So VIVA MONTANA!!! VIVA MILES CITY!!!! GLENDIVE IS GAY!!!!!

OK, I can't take any longer. Not only are most of you decendants of illegal aliens you are the descendants of invaders, occupiers and conquerors. I am not including myself because I am a second generation American on my mothers side. My families roots are English, the most prolific imperialists on the planet.

The group having the nerve to call themselves "Minute Men" are building a fence across a line on a map that at one time would have not quite cut Mexico in half. I suppose we should be grateful that aborigional Americans didn't have fence building technology.

The shrub's proposal is to allow aliens work permits for six years at a time and no eligability for citizens rights. Mexicans that cross the border are not stealing the nation. The current administration is selling it to the highest bidder and keeping the money for themselves and their corporate cronies.

Cinco De Mayo IS celebrated in Mexico. For three years we shared a weekend home in Mexico and participated in the celebration. Cinco De Mayo is NOT Mexican independence day. It celebrates the end of the French occupation. The celebration held in Los Angeles is always a joyous, colorful time filled with music and great food, much like other imported holiday's, Christmas, Saint Patricks, Yom Kippur,etc, ad nauseum.

Christmas is not a particularly important holiday for the jewish population but it is part of the rich tapestry that makes up life in these United States. I don't think it is a great idea for me to wear an orange shirt and enter an Irish bar on St. Pat's day but I am pleased to count the few sane Irishmen I have met as friends. I can't imagine an America without people of color, people of tradition, a diverse and resourceful people,...Americans.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." When I think of health care, Social Security, New Orleans, Homeland Security and the political and corporate rape of America, the invasion and occupation of foreign countries, my fathers service in WW2, my service in Vietnam and what the VA will have to offer our Troops currently serving in Iraq and undoubtably what will soon be Iran I wonder if that will become, Make us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.

Addendum; Deerslayer, I felt compelled to add this. I taught in Thornton. I know the task is daunting at best and challenging all of the time. The opportunity is to educate not denigrate.





[This message has been edited by Tucker Bolton (edited 5/8/2006).]

I would also like proof of the quote attributed to Charlie Daniels.

Tucker...I agree with everything you said...even the part about educating and not denigrating. Nevertheless...by noon on Friday...being patient with a group of middle school kids who barely speak any English shouting "USA is GAY"....well, it's not in my bag. Maybe you're a bigger saint than I am.

Nope, I remember those days. I am just grown weary of the jokes, attitudes and intolerance that continue to divide us as people, without consideration of others beliefs or culture. Sorry if it seemed, I fired from the hip.

Snopes has this to say about the Charlie Daniels quote:

http://www.snopes.com/pol...iels02.asp

The original is here:

http://www.multimedia-int...orum_id=13

As you can see, the post by Kacey is not the original Charlie Daniels editorial -- the last 1/2 or 2/3 of it is bogus.

Tucker:

Passion is good! You make excellent points. Here is a link to an article in the WP that came out today. It's pretty interesting given some of the "my grandparents had to..." arguments in the thread.

http://www.washingtonpost...00721.html

Carlos

P.S. At first I thought the flag to which CD referred in the bogus quote was the confederate flag! Boy, shows you how dumb I am.

Tucker -

It's a valiant try, but you'd have better luck driving nails into a brick wall with your forehead.

Also regarding Charlie D: I thought entertainers where supposed to shut up and entertain? Very confusing.

Thank you for your links. Carlos's link to the Washington Post article was excellent.

As for Charlie Daniels, I have seen sooo many "quotes" attributed to other notables i.e. George Carlin and Robbin Williams in particular. They are always suspect and I fear coming from people that find it easier to grab someone elses opinion than form one for themselves. It is easier to get on the bandwagon than it is to hook up the wagon and try to fill it up.

I am all for people becoming naturalized citizens. Most people that do, revel in becoming new Americans. That being said, I would rather see an illegal immigrant sending money to feed and cloth his family than multi million dollar, golden parachutes for corporate whores and the manufacture of weapons of war

Bridgier, only if you are a Dixie Chick.

The irony here is that calling on the government "to enforce immigration law" would require the government to change the law. No government agency is resourced (money- or people-wise) to enforce immigration law as being suggested. So if immigration law can be changed for punitive reasons, why can't it be changed for other reasons (humanitarian, compassionate, etc.)?

Carlos: I thought enforcing immigration law was the function of the Border Patrol, but maybe I misunderstood their purpose.

Richard: Are you familiar with the BP's organizational structure, budget, etc.? Both are pretty spartan if you consider what you propose. Also, the BP is only part of "immigration law enforcement" apparatus, which falls primarily under DHS. I suppose there are some aspects of "immigration law enforcement," such as prosecuting U.S. citizen employers who hire "illegals," which would clearly fall outside the jurisdiction of DHS. I'm not sure but maybe you're thinking "border enforcement" would suffice for "immigration law enforcement." In either case, Congress would have to make significant changes to the immigration law enforcement apparatus: in other words, change the law. So my question stands. If you can desire to change the law for punitive reasons, why can't you desire to change the law for humanitarian or compassionate reasons?

Still

Because that's a possible answer to WWJD that doesn't involve keeping your pants zipped or your bong unlit, and thus can be rejected out of hand as being "impractical"....

How would we pay for the giant fence which would no doubt cost billions (especially if Halliburton got the 'no bid' contract.)? We can't tax the hyperrich because that would be bad. We can't get out of the war in Iraq, even if we got into it under false pretenses, because we have mucked up their country. Who would "man" the giant fence? We'd need lots more border patrol agents, since the Nationl Guard is otherwise occupied. How would we pay them? They'll need training, uniforms, vehicles. . .cost bucks, folks.

Yes, illegal immigration is a HUGE problem and it needs to be dealt with but no solution is free and right now, our Federal deficit boggles the mind. At the rate it is piling up, in 20 years, we'll be sneaking over the border in Mexico begging to work at slave wages.

So. . .what's the quick, easy, simple solution that won't break the bank?

There isn't one.

Darn.

Your right, Amorette. I have decided that the best solution is to do away with ALL circuitous lines in the sand otherwise known as borders. No more US-Mexico border, no more US-Canada border, no more state borders. They are just a nuisance. Everyone in North America is free to go and do what they want, speak any language they want, behave however they deem acceptable in their own eyes. If you want to blow up people and buldings that is your right.

And since we no longer have borders we can do away with the military. There are no borders defend, so we don't need them anymore. That will save all sorts of money that we can just give away.

And lets do away with capitalism while we are at it. From now on everyone should receive the same wage from the government. No more high wage jobs. No, we should all receive the same $7.50/hr for our work. We should depend on the government to provide us with any medical care we need. We should all live in government housing. We should all be given government issued Yugo's to get from point A to point B. The government should educate us for the job they will give us.

After all, the most important thing in life is that everyone is treated the same.

Bridgier: WWJD, zippers, bongs, and border patrol . . . this could develop into something very interesting.



Richard: Wow! You lost me on that one. (Which isn't hard to do mind you). Please explain.

>>After all, the most important thing in life is that everyone is treated the same.

I am amazed to see that Richard has finally grasped one of Jesus Christ's most important teachings.

When did Jesus suggest treating everyone the same?

Anyway, happy Cinco de Mayo!

Is the liberal repertoire really so dry that you need to resort to using Halliburton in a discussion on illegal immigration? Couldn't you have worked in the NRA somewhere too? How about another Hitler comparison? We haven't seen one of those in awhile.

Gunnar: I think you mean that I have learn one of the ELCA's most important teachings.

Carlos: What is there about satire you don't understand?

Frankly, I am sad and tired of the way the non-conservatives in this country want to distroy the mom, apple pie, chevrolet, rock-n-roll, John Wayne, Go Big Red Football,go to church on Sunday, culture here.

If you think the US should look like modern day Europe do us a favor and move there. I am sure they will welcome you back like the prodigal you are.

I for one am tired of being told that I need to feel guilty and been in a constant state of apology for being here.

RB Jr said "Frankly, I am sad and tired of the way the non-conservatives in this country want to distroy the mom, apple pie, chevrolet, rock-n-roll, John Wayne, Go Big Red Football,go to church on Sunday, culture here."

Nobody wants to destroy Mom or apple pie. Chevrolet and Ford are doing an effective job of destroying themselves by building ever larger cars and trucks in non-competitive factories (before the tirade begins over buying American, Toyota built more automobiles in the US tham GM did). Rock and Roll is here to stay! John Wayne was just a bad actor so I have never really had him on my (and I love this next word) non-conservative agenda. I have never been convinced that sports makes the world go round and finally, If there was a Synogogue in Miles City, I would attend on Shabot and not try and convince you that it was necessary for you to attend for me to be an American.

RB Jr said "I for one am tired of being told that I need to feel guilty and been in a constant state of apology for being here."

I am certain that I can echo your parting quote with the exception of feeling apologetic for my beliefs. Mucho Gusto Amigo's

Big Red Football sucks. Go Griz!!!!

Richard: Oh, I am all for satire. But I guess I missed the "wit" part of your response to A. And Go Big Red Football? Now that is not satire! Or, is it?

By the way, I am not asking you to feel guilty or to apologize. In fact, I apologize to you and to anyone else who read this thread and took any of my comments as personal attacks. I thought we were having a discussion. I may not agree with your viewpoint on some things, but it is your viewpoint and thus should be heard and not responded to with ad hominem tirades.

"Prodigal"? ... as in "extravagently wasteful"? That--once again--I don't get. Maybe I don't understand correct English language use or missed the satire there as well.

Carlos
P.S. I'm from "here" and therefore could not be welcomed "back" to Europe.

"Prodigal" as in repentant.

Oh, come on d.s.! BRF is on the rebuild. They made some noise last year. The powerhouses in the conference have to have someone to play!

Richard: Is this a reference to "prodigal" as in the prodigal son in the Gospel of Luke? I thought that guy was "prodigal" because he was extravagantly wasteful of money and parental love, not because he was repentant. He demonstrated repentance, but you can be prodigal and not repentant. I assure you. My moving to Europe to do "us" a favor would neither demonstrate prodigality nor repentance.

Carlos is correct: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prodigal - Prodigal has nothing to do with repentance.

Oh... so now we are putting "boundaries" around the meaning of words. I used the word prodigal in the sense of someone who left their home, lived a riotous life style and then came to their sense about what a rotten shameful person they were and returned home with a repentant attitude.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

Richard:
Riotous, rotten, shameful were dead on but if I "returned" home I would just be where I am and what I am. As for repentance, I guess I can work that in too, but as I said, I am already at home, so maybe I'm just an amateur-digal, not a pro-digal.



And, no, I am not putting "boundaries" around words. One of the crosses dragged around in these threads is English only. So why not correct English only? W, for example, says he wants all immigrants to learn English, so I am hopeful that means he will learn to speak English correctly too. Just pray he doesn't sing the Star Spangled Banner!

To late: http://thinkprogress.org/...g-spanish/

To paraphrase that sage-for-the-ages Bart Simpson: Caramba! And, of course, I double-dog promise I did not embellish this quote.

Bridgier, the problem with words meaning what I want them to mean is that you would then have no idea what I mean. We would all be like Charlie Brown's parents, Bhraa, Bhreba, Bhrebaing each other, trying to communicate. Language is a social convention necessary to communicate. Do I intend meaning with my communication? yes. Did I communicate it clearly enough that you understand my intent? I hope so.

It's my day to provide links -

On the subject of Politics and the English Language (Which I hope clarifies my feelings on the humpty dumpty quote above), I give you George (Or is it Jorge?) Orwell: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/...well46.htm

An interesting article in light of your quotation of Humpty Dumpty. I would agree that political jargon has become empty rhetoric, and thus meaningless dibble. There are many phrases that are thrown around meaninglessly in the political and media, to the detriment of the people more than the English language.

A similar problem exists for logic. In politics, attacking the person is just as valid and discrediting as addressing the argument or logic of a statement. Instead of working to find a solution, we play name-calling games.

Tucker, are you sure Toyota isn't cleaning GM's clock due to the $1600 or so per vehicle they save by being vehemently anti-union and building in right-to-work red states, and by not paying the cushy benefits and lifelong entitlements our American automakers are handcuffed to?

http://www.businessweek.c..._mz001.htm

It seems to me to be more a parallel of red state vs. blue state. Rise vs. Decline. Productivity vs. Entitlement. Toyota knows how to run a business for sure. Just remember that every day, their growth is another nail in the union coffin.

It's funny that while many people advocate that corporations should pay wonderful wages and benefits to their employees, they then turn around and hand their money to their lesser-paying benefit-cutting competition.

Oh, and buy American!

Rick, that is a conumdrum. Union wages verses what it adds to the cost of a vehicle. It is a question that I struggle with.

Between the union wage and the benefit package, inflated vehicle prices are inevitable. Add that to the built in obsolescence, epa requirements and NTSA requiremnts, it is no wonder the big three are hemoraging money. Now the fed is talking about manditory, run flat tires and up to six required air bags.

I would love nothing more than to see Detroit ( more often each day, Mexico and Canada ) build and sell an affordable, user friendly, repairable vehicle.

Without creating a "tempest in a teapot" over the middle east, I must say that the last thing America needs in these devisive times is another luxury marquis, SUV that looks like a swiss army knife, consumes much and produces nothing but ego centric consumption.

Tucker, Rick . . .

At the risk of introducing even more factors into the discussion, we also have to factor in insurance/health care costs into the equation of why the US auto industry is struggling to remain competitive. Both GM and Ford (and the UAW) have cited insurance/health care costs as one of the major problems they face in fighting to be competitive. (and obviously if companies like GM & Ford are struggling with this, a whole lot of other businesses are as well)

I'm pressed for time right now, so I don't have time to look it up, but last winter GM put out some reports on how hard they were being hit by health insurance cost (the AUW put out similar reports). But if anyone is interested, it shouldn't be hard to "google" for some info on this.

I agree that insurance costs are a large part of the problem. My friend works at GM. Had to have OUTPATIENT back surgery because the insurance offered by GM had to cut back benefits. I can't imagine being sent home two hours after back surgery. Insurance companies are at the root of a lot of evil. Did you know that if you turn in ONE claim with a homeowners insurance company in Montana that by law they can cancel you and mark you as a bad risk? That in turn means the next company can charge you two to three times as much. Also they can base all of your insurance premiums on your credit report. Not if you're a good driver, or maintain your home. Too much power given to an industry that we must all interact with by law.

These drugs are *'n awesome - I could swear that Kacey wrote something I agree with. A few more hits and I'll be singing God Bless America with Richard and Rick.....

These drugs are *'n awesome - I could swear that Kacey wrote something I agree with. A few more hits and I'll be singing God Bless America with Richard and Rick (in Spanish).


--------------------------

There. Fixed your post.

Usted personas blancas locas

Hahaha, gringos chistosos!

Dost mine ears deceive me????

"Toyota knows how to run a business for sure. Just remember that every day, their growth is another nail in the union coffin." "Oh, and buy American!"

I believe I hear the yammerings of a full-fledged union supporter!

~Subject: REL Stop the Wal-Mart Supercenter ~ Author: Rick Kuchynka ~ Posted: 2/26/2004 6:05:41 PM~

What labor unions fail to realize is that there is a finite market value to a certain amount of labor. There are definite productivity gains enjoyed when you create a workforce that is content. I have no problem admitting to labor's historic contribution to our well-being. Holidays, paid time off, health benefits, and many of the other workplace amenities we enjoy were all brought to us by labor unions. Unfortunately, the unions did not change with the times, and the number of union members in the US is roughly 1/3rd of what it once was. Unions today have no concept of the fact that performing a certain task is only worth a certain amount of money.

You can never maintain a system that inflates the wages of employees past a simple formula:

(Minimum $ amount an adequately trained worker would accept to do the job) + (Productivity gained due to a happy employee)

Labor unions have fooled themselves into thinking that if they can force their store to pay bagboys $20/hr, that they are helping bagboys everywhere.

Give me a $20/hr bagboy and a year, and I'll show you an unemployed person with now-unmarketable skills, and a new "bag your own groceries" procedure at your local supermarket."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, let me get this straight. Instead of buying my Toyota Sienna, which is consistently ranked in the top two minivans in just about every rating system I have come across, I should have sacrificed durability, longevity and efficiency in support of a domestic automobile industry that is clearly not working, simply because I should buy American?

Ah, but what does buy American really mean? Does my vehicle, with its parts 95% manufactured in the U.S., with its assembly completely within the boundaries of the U.S.A., with American workers, really mean less than that Chevrolet pickup down the street manufactured in Canada? These lines are becoming increasingly blurred. From 1976 through 1996, American car companies knew that they had a shortage of high-quality, reliable cars, so they bought some from Japan and Korea and either put a domestic name on it or a different body.

For example, how do we classify a BMW Z3, designed in Germany and built in South Carolina (employing a lot of Americans)? - that's probably an easy one - most would agree that it's still a German car (but can't really be considered an "import" if an American buys it since it's built here in the States, right?).

Other issues are even harder to discern: Volvo and Jaguar are owned by Ford (which also has a significant stake in Mazda), so are all these domestic or foreign brands?

The Chevy Tracker (formerly known as GEO Tracker) was built by Suzuki (which they also sold as the Sidekick). Is the Tracker as we know it today American because it wears the Chevy badge (even though it is built in Japan)? The same could be said of the Chevy Prism. It's basically a Toyota Corolla built in Japan, imported for Chevy to slap their name on. Oh, and by the way, this same car also used to be called the GEO Prism. How about the Honda Accords built in Marysville, OH by American factory workers? Interesting how some loyalties can seem irrelevant all of a sudden...

Ford Probe = Mazda MX-6
1990+ Ford Escort/Mercury Tracer = Mazda Protege
Mercury Villager = Nissan Quest
Chrysler Conquest = Mitsubishi Starion
Eagle Summit = Mitsubishi Mirage
Eagle Talon/1990+ Plymouth Laser = Mitsubishi Eclipse
Dodge Stealth = Mitsubishi 3000GT
Dodge/Plymouth Colt Vista = Mitsubishi Expo
Dodge D50/Ram 50/Plymouth Arrow = Mitsubishi Mighty Max
Dodge Raider = Mitsubishi Montero
1984-1988 Chevy Nova = Toyota Corolla FWD
Geo/Chevy Prizm = Toyota Corolla (Sprinter body)
Geo/Chevy Tracker = Suzuki Sidekick
Geo/Chevy Metro = Suzuki Swift
Geo Storm = Isuzu Impulse

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have always thought that the more I can save on my major purchases, either through dependability, longevity, efficiency, etc., the more I have to spend at local Miles City businesses, such as eating out at the Airport Inn or the Stagecoach, or buying new appliances at Steadmans, etc., etc. That is the best support of Miles City and the U.S.A. I can imagine. Supporting an out-of-touch, bloated, archaic industry is not something I feel the need to blindly support.

While Toyota may be a Japanese company, they are built in the USA. And you have to like what their stock has done in the last several months.

You might say that Toyota immigrated to the US legally.

Denise, you're so defensive about that Toyota of yours.

I never voiced any support for UAW or what it's done to the big three. Since you're quoting me, you seemed to miss:

"It seems to me to be more a parallel of red state vs. blue state. Rise vs. Decline. Productivity vs. Entitlement."

It's obvious I see nothing wrong with a person making the choice to buy from a more competitive company from that statement. I was addressing the oft-used excuse that US automakers are dying because they relied too much on SUV sales. The sad fact is, for years, SUV's were the only vehicles with high enough markup to float the lead dirigible known as UAW. Now gas prices have punctured that market and now we're seeing the decline we would have seen 10 years ago if the SUV market had never taken off.

There's not enough margin in economy cars to eat a $1,600 disadvantage for each and every one. It's admirable that GM/Ford/Chrysler held this disaster off as long as they did. I just hate seeing people blaming these companies for catering to the only market (the SUV market) that kept them in business for all these years. The plain fact is, if you support labor, you should be buying big-three autos. Every other company making cars in the US is outright anti-union.

If you think quality isn't nearly is good, I think its debatable, GM has made great strides in recent years, and is second only to Toyota in reliability:

http://www.market watch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid={15F8BF04-91F2-4401-8A48-98D8FB3AAC9F}&siteid=google

(Sorry I had to separate "market" and "watch" because the profanity filter is picking up markeT WATch and replacing it with a more clinical name )

MarkeTWATch
Give it a try!!

Still, even if you don't believe there's a big quality difference, you should expect that $1,600 would buy alot of quality difference on the assembly line.

Hal, said "At the risk of introducing even more factors into the discussion, we also have to factor in insurance/health care costs into the equation of why the US auto industry is struggling to remain competitive."

That would be a factor if the companies taking most American market share weren't doing so with new American factories. These companies are paying decent wages in mostly southern (right to work) states, along with full benefits. They just don't give lifetime entitlements. GM isn't being buried because it's paying for its labor force, it's being buried because it's paying the healthcare tab for old Jebediah who retired 30 years ago. 30 years ago it was no big deal, because all their competitors were playing by these same rules. Now the foreign competition has entered, is playing under different rules, and is reaping the benefits.