Montana Wingnut Hits Big Time
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Posted by Bill Freese (+480) 12 years ago
http://www.colbertnation....iend-jeans

Stephen Colbert has high praise for Joe Reed's we-did-not-cause-global-warming-and-we-should-keep-doing-it-because-it-is-good-for-us bill. Warning: If you follow the link, you will be advertised at.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
Oi, vey. Glacier Waterpark, here I come.

At times like this, I wonder about moving to Canada.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6139) 12 years ago
No relation.

At least he spells his name correctly. There - I said something nice.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
If one actually digs into this topic you will find that the science is clearly NOT settled. There is significant evidence that anthropomorphic creation of CO2 makes no difference on this planet of ours. Formulating energy policy based psudo-science is IMO not a prudent course of action.


http://www.energytribune....rmest-Ever

Is It Really The Warmest Ever?
By Joseph D'Aleo
Posted on Jan. 28, 2011



Both NOAA and NASA this month announced that 2010 was tied for the warmest year. The UK Climate Research Unit at East Anglia University proclaimed 2010 the second warmest year since 1850.

But after the incredibly cold and snowy winters in 2008/09 and 2009/10 and so far in 2010/11, those claims are falling on increasingly deaf ears. The public doubt about global warming has been increasing given the Climategate disclosures suggesting scientists have been `cooking the books', especially when earlier promises of warm, snowless mid-latitude winters failed miserably.

Back on March 20, 2000, The Independent, a British newspaper, reported Dr. David Viner's of the UK's Climate Research Unit warning that within a few years snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event." Indeed, Viner opined, "Children just aren't going to know what snow is."



Similarly, David Parker, at the UK's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, said that eventually British children could have only "virtual" experience of snow via movies and the Internet.

The last three winters in the UK were forecast by the UK Met Office to be mild and snowless. Instead, brutal cold and snow in the UK has the UK Met Office on their heels. Indeed the cold and snow was a throwback to the age of Dickens in the early 1800s. UK MPs called for Official Parliamentary Probe into whether the UKMO reliance on their ideology and CO2 models had biased their predictions.

In the United States, NOAA echoing the UN IPCC, claimed snow would retreat north with the storm tracks and major cities would get more rain and mild winters. The Union of Concerned Scientists said in 2004 scientists claim winters were becoming warmer and less snowy. In 2008, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. bemoaned that children would be robbed of the childhood joys of sledding and skiing in the DC area due to global warming. A year later, the area set a new seasonal snowfall record with 5 to 6 feet of snow and sleds and skis were the only way to get around.

The winter of 2009/10 was the coldest ever in parts of the southeast, and in parts of Siberia and the coldest since 1977/78 or 1962/63 in many parts of the United States, Europe and Asia.

The spirits of alarmists and their cheerleaders in the media were buoyed by the hot summer in the eastern United States and western Russia even though that is the normal result when a strong La Nina follows on the heels of a strong El Nino winter. But as is usually the case in La Ninas, global cooling usually follows within 6 months. Indeed, temperatures plunged as winter approached and this past December (2010) was the second coldest in the entire Central England Temperature record extending back to 1659. It was the coldest ever December in diverse locations like Ireland, Sweden, and Florida.

Reluctantly, alarmists and their cheerleaders in the media changed their tune and the promise of warm and snowless winters with `global warming' morphed into global warming means cold and snowy winters. ABC News even said cold and snowy winters would be the new norm because of global warming. Non sequiturs like that have sadly become `the new norm' in the wacky world of the mainstream media.

In Australia, the government's Bureau of Meteorology and university alarmist scientists promised major drought and blocked dams and flood mitigation projects, but when devastating floods occurred this summer, they blamed that on global warming and again enviros and government agencies escaped the blame. Other scientists had warned that changes in the Pacific would lead to a return of the flood years like 1974, but they were ignored by agenda driven, green leaning government.

In fact environmentalists and alarmist scientists have reinvented global warming and now attribute all weather to global warming - cold, warm, drought and flood. They call it `climate disruption'. But the climate has not been cooperating in a way that is convincing the public they have to sacrifice even more to stop a problem they don't sense is real. Just imagine if they knew how much they really would cost (trillions - several thousands of dollars per year per family) and how little these deep sacrifices would change the climate (not measureable).

Despite claims to the contrary, in recent years, global temperatures stopped warming. Even Phil Jones of the UK Climate Research Unit after Climategate admitted there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995 (15 years) and between 2002 and 2009, the global temperatures had declined 0.12C (0.22F).

To try and stop the bleeding, NOAA and NASA took steps to reduce or eliminate the cooling.

This aggravated what already was an already a bad situation. CRU data base programmer Ian `Harry' Harris's frustrated rants in his Climategate log were eye-opening "[The] hopeless state of their (CRU) data base. No uniform data integrity, it's just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they're found...There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations.and duplicates. Aarrggghhh! There truly is no end in sight. This whole project is SUCH A MESS. No wonder I needed therapy!!"

Furthermore, in a candid interview on the BBC, CRU's Director Phil Jones admitted his "surface temperature data are in such disarray they probably cannot be verified or replicated".

So should we avoid CRU and focus on NOAA and NASA. The answer is an unequivocal no.

In a Climategate email, Phil Jones acknowledges that CRU mirrors the NOAA data. "Almost all the data we have in the CRU archive is exactly the same as in the Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN) archive used by the NOAA National Climatic Data Center." And NASA uses NOAA data applying their own adjustments. All three data bases suffer from the same flaws.

All have managed to extract a warming trend from data that suggests cyclical changes and little long term trend. See how the three data centers working off the same data have reconstructed the global temperature history. NASA in green show the warmest anomalies, CRU generally the lowest. Part of this is the base period for computing averages (NASA uses the cold 1951 to 1980 30 year period for normals, CRU 1961 to 1990 and NOAA the entire period of record.



All show a warming period from the 1920s to early 1940s, a cooling from the 1940s to 1970s another warming from late 1970s to around 1998, and then as Jones noted a flattening. The warming early in the century before the industrial boom was very similar to that from 1978 to 1998. The cooling post WWII was during the post war boom.



In the detailed working paper I coauthored with Anthony Watts and others we concluded: There has clearly been evidence of some cyclical warming in recent decades, most notably 1979 to 1998. However, the global surface-station data is seriously compromised. The data suffers significant contamination by urbanization and other local factors such as land-use/land-cover changes. Ina majority of cases studied, station siting does not meet the published criteria with contamination by very local heat sources. There was a major station dropout, which occurred suddenly around 1990 and a significant increase in missing monthly data in the stations that remained. (Note: this increases uncertainty - greatest in regions where they claim the warming is the greatest). There are huge uncertainties in ocean temperatures; no small issue, as oceans cover 71% of the earth's surface.

These factors lead to significant uncertainty and a tendency for over-estimation of century-scale temperature trends. A conclusion from all findings suggest that global data bases are seriously flawed and can no longer be trusted to assess climate trends or rankings or validate model forecasts. And, consequently, such surface data should be ignored for decision making".

In this story, we will look at two of the best documented issues, urban contamination and poor siting of instruments.

Urban Heat Island

Everyone recognizes that the urban areas are warmer, especially at night than surrounding rural and suburban areas. Airports originally on the outskirts of urban areas have seen cities grow around them and temperatures artificially rise. Tim Oke (1973) and Torok et al. (2003), experimentally determined the amount of contamination as a function of population. They found even a town of 1000 could produce an artificial warming of 2.2C (3.8F).

In the original NOAA US data base called USHCN version 1, NOAA (Karl 1988) used Oke's work and others to develop an adjustment for urban heat island contamination. The combination of longer term station stability and this adjustment made that data base (1221 climate stations), the best in the world. The data showed cyclical changes with warmth peaking in the 1930s and a cooling that bottomed out in the 1960s and 1970s and a modest warming thereafter falling short of the heat of the 1930s warm peak. This is a screen capture of the US annual temperatures from NOAA but posted on the NASA web site in 1999.



Indeed James Hansen in 1999 remarked correctly about this plot "The U.S. has warmed during the past century, but the warming hardly exceeds year-to-year variability. Indeed, in the U.S. the warmest decade was the 1930s and the warmest year was 1934."

NOAA and NASA had to constantly explain why their global data sets which had no such adjustment was showing warming and the US, not so much. NOAA began reducing the UHI around 2000 (noticed by state climatologists and seen in this analysis of New York City's Central Park data here) and then in USHCN version2, released for the US stations in 2009, the urban heat island adjustment was totally eliminated which resulted in an increase of almost 0.3F in warming trend since the 1930s. See animating GIF here.

David Easterling, Chief of the Scientific Services Division at NOAA admitted in one of the NASA FOIA emails: "One other fly in the ointment, we have a new adjustment scheme for USHCN (V2) that appears to adjust out some, if not most, of the "local" trend that includes land use change and urban warming."

Brian Stone of Georgia Tech in a 2009 paper found "Across the U.S. as a whole, approximately 50 percent of the warming that has occurred since 1950 is due to land use changes (usually in the form of clearing forest for crops or cities) rather than to the emission of greenhouse gases," said Stone. "Most large U.S. cities, including Atlanta, are warming at more than twice the rate of the planet as a whole - a rate that is mostly attributable to land use change."

NOAA used a paper by Peterson (2003) to justify the removal of the urban adjustment. Steve McIntyre challenged NOAA's Peterson (2003), who had said, "Contrary to generally accepted wisdom, no statistically significant impact of urbanization could be found in annual temperatures" by showing that the difference between urban and rural temperatures for the full Peterson station set was 0.7ºC and between temperatures in large cities and rural areas 2ºC.

CRU had done the same for their global data using the findings of Jones (1990) and Wang (1990). The Jones and Wang papers in 1990 were shown by Keenan to be based on fabricated China data. In 2008 ironically Jones found that contamination by urbanization in China was a very non-trivial 1C per century but that did not cause the data centers to begin adjusting as that would have eliminated global warming.

Bad station siting

According to NOAA guidelines, climate temperature sensors are to be located away (100 feet or more) from local heat sources and sheltered from direct sunlight on the sensing element, while allowing for ventilation by the wind.

Watts found that 89 percent of 1000 plus U.S. ground temperature stations surveyed do not meet NOAA's published standards for distance between stations and adjacent heat sources, seriously compromising readings. "(Even) The raw temperature data produced by the ... stations are not sufficiently accurate to use in scientific studies or as a basis for public policy decisions," Watts concludes.

Just one example among thousands - Urbana, Ohio climate station is shown below with sensor surrounded by multiple heat sources.



NOAA first denied it was an issue in an internal talking points memo and then in a rushed `pal' review paper (Menne 2009) but then asked the government for $100 million to upgrade/correct the siting of 1,000 climate stations.

Indeed, numerous peer-reviewed papers catalogued here have estimated that these local issues with the observing networks may account for 30%, 50% or more of the warming shown since 1880.

STILL MORE ADJUSTMENTS

After the data with all its warts is collected, further adjustments are made, each producing more warming. MIT meteorologist Dr. Richard Lindzen commented "[W]hen data conflicts with models, a small coterie of scientists can be counted upon to modify the data" to agree with models' projections."

Over time in the global data bases, the warming trend has been steadily increasing. This has been accomplished by cooling off prior decades while increasing the warming in recent years. Many examples are provided in the paper and case studies here.

For example, extracting old data from papers by James Hansen and comparing them with data downloaded from NASA's GISS site in 2007 and 2010, we can see the progressive `man-made' global warming (the men here though are at NASA). This is accomplished by making adjustments to the data and homogenizing data (blending urban with rural and good sited stations with bad sited) and then removing in 2007, the urban adjustment in the United States.



The frequency and direction of NASA US adjustments stepped up in 2007 as temperatures began to cool (here).



NASA/NOAA's homogenization process has been shown to significantly alter the trends in many stations where the siting and rural nature suggest the data is reliable. In fact, adjustments account for virtually all the trend in the data. Unadjusted data for the best sites/rural shows cyclical multi-decadal variations but no net long term trend as former NASA scientist Dr. Ed Long showed here. He showed however that after adjustment, the rural data trend was made consistent with the urban data set with an artificial warming introduced. So in the data sets, urban warming is allowed to remain and the warm bias is artificially introduced into the rural and/or well sited data sets which in their unadjusted state show no warming.

In the graph above from Climate Audit, the difference in adjustments made before (red) and after 2007 (black) is dramatic.

Record highs and lows are based on raw, unadjusted data. They show the pattern we find in raw unadjusted rural and well site stations, a cyclical change but no long term trend. They suggest the 1930s is still the warmest decade, as Hansen stated in 1999. This can be seen by looking city by city at the records. Here we look at state record highs and lows. It shows the decade with the highest and lowest temperature for the month and state through 2009. Instead of the warmest decade on record, the 2000s is shown to be unusually benign with fewer records than any decade since the 1880s.



Though both NOAA and NASA have resisted FOIA requests for release of all the unadjusted data and documentation for all the adjustments made, that may change in the new congress. The Data Quality Act requires that any published data must be able to be replicated by independent audits. That is currently not possible given the resistance posed, despite promises of transparency.

Georgia Tech's Dr. Judith Curry's comments on Roger Pielke Jr.'s blog support such an independent effort: "In my opinion, there needs to be a new independent effort to produce a global historical surface temperature dataset that is transparent and that includes expertise in statistics and computational science...The public has lost confidence in the data sets.Some efforts are underway in the blogosphere to examine the historical land surface data (e.g. such as GHCN), but even the GHCN data base has numerous inadequacies."

How did we get here?

Dwight Eisenhower in his 1961 Farewell Address to the Nation warned: "The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present - and is gravely to be regarded."

NOAA's Administrator Dr. Jane Lubchenko, when she was president of AAAS in 1999, urged "Urgent and unprecedented environmental and social changes challenge scientists to define a new social contract . a commitment on the part of all scientists to devote their energies and talents to the most pressing problems of the day, in proportion to their importance, in exchange for public funding."

NOAA and NASA are together receiving nearly a billion dollars in direct government climate research funding and up to $600 million more from the Recovery Act of 2009. For that they are expected to support environmental, social and political agendas. You can see how quickly the political operatives and the media enablers respond to those press releases (here). In an act of unbelievable hypocrisy (and perhaps desperation), Congressman Waxman even wants to challenge skeptic Pat Michael's (who testified in front of his majesty's committee) funding by industry groups, ignoring the clear government sponsored bias of the grant toting alarmists who testified in front of his committee. Instead of focusing on where skeptics get their money, the congress should be focusing on whether they can trust the global warming scientists in data centers, labs and most universities who have benefited to the tune of over $73 billion in the last two decades.

Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 "If we torture the data long enough, it will confess."

So is 2010 the warmest year?, the 2000s the warmest decade? . Don't bet on it!

References:

Jones P.D., Groisman PYa, Coughlan M, Plummer N, Wangl WC, Karl TR (1990) Assessment of urbanization effects in time series of surface air temperatures over land. Nature 347:169-172.

Jones, P.D., D. H. Lister, and Q. Li , 2008 Urbanization effects in large-scale temperature records, with an emphasis on China, J. Geophys. Res., 113, D16122,doi:10.1029/2008JD009916.

Karl, T.R., H.F. Diaz, and G. Kukla, 1988: Urbanization: its detection and effect in the United States climate record. J. Climate, 1, 1099-1123.

Menne, M.J., C.N. Willaims, Jr., and M.A. Palecki, 2010: On the reliability of the U.S. surface temperature record. J. Geophys. Res. , doi:10.1029/2009JD013094, in press.

Oke, T.R. 1973. City size and the urban heat island. Atmospheric Environment 7: 769-779.

Peterson, T.C., 2003. "Assessment of Urban Versus Rural in situ Surface Temperatures in the Contiguous United States: No Difference Found." Journal of Climate 16(18) 2941-2959.

Stone, Brian Jr., 2009. Land Use as Climate Change Mitigation, Environmental Science & Technology, 43: 9052-9056.

Torok, S.J., Morris, C.J.G., Skinner, C. and Plummer, N., 2001. Urban heat island features of southeast Australian towns. Australian Meteorological Magazine 50: 1-13.

Joseph D'Aleo (BS, MS Meteorology, University of Wisconsin, Doctoral Program at NYU, CCM, AMS Fellow) has over 35 years experience in professional meteorology. He was the first Director of Meteorology and co-founder of the cable TV Weather Channel. Mr. D'Aleo was Chief Meteorologist at Weather Services International Corporation and Senior Editor for WSI's popular Intellicast.com web site. He is a former college professor of Meteorology/ Climatology at Lyndon State College. He is the author of a Resource Guide on El Nino and La Nina. Mr. D'Aleo has frequently written about and made presentations on how research into ENSO and other atmospheric and oceanic phenomena has made skillful long-range forecasts possible and has helped develop statistical models using these global teleconnections which he and others use in forecasting for energy and agriculture traders. He has also studied, published and presented on the roles these cycles in the sun and oceans have played in multidecadal climate change. He is currently Executive Director of the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project (http://icecap.us).

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/1/2011)]
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Posted by Bill Freese (+480) 12 years ago
Waste of time there. We do not need numbers and graphs. All we need to do is pass a law that says global warming is natural and good for us, and it shall be so. What is pitiful scientific fact compared with the awesome power of legislation?
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Posted by Bob L. (+5095) 12 years ago
How old is the Earth, again?

I seem to forget.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
Bob L. wrote:
How old is the Earth, again?

I seem to forget.

From God's perspective looking at the earth 6,000-10,000 years. From man's perspective looking to the heavens, 15 billion years.

Bill Freese wrote:
Waste of time there. We do not need numbers and graphs. All we need to do is pass a law that says global warming is natural and good for us, and it shall be so. What is pitiful scientific fact compared with the awesome power of legislation?

Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Reed, was aware of the "numbers and graphs" when he purposed his legislation. It is really sad when partisan political positions are confused with the interests of all. We need to learn to separate positions from interests.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/2/2011)]
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Sorta like we should separate religion and goverment???
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
howdy wrote:
Sorta like we should separate religion and goverment???

Yes, and even more like we should separate religion and government.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
but the conservatives keep wanting to mix religion and government together like Huckabee stated he wanted to actually change the constitution to make it more "Christlike"...that is very scary to me..more folks have been killed in the name of Jesus than people realize..thus one can NEVER EVER mix the two...a person should be free to worship or not worship according to their own conscience not that of a government...You cannot legislate religious beliefs IMO...it is dangerous!! which is why our founding fathers deliberatly made our constitution the way it is...
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Posted by Bill Freese (+480) 12 years ago
Richard Bonine, Jr. wrote:
It is really sad when partisan political positions are confused with the interests of all. We need to learn to separate positions from interests.

Yes, like when partisans who stand to make a lot of money from the burning of coal decide to legislate in favor of pollution that will affect everyone. Instead of finding ways to control the pollution, they simply declare by law that the pollution and its effects are good for us.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
Bill Freese wrote:
Yes, like when partisans who stand to make a lot of money from the burning of coal decide to legislate in favor of pollution that will affect everyone. Instead of finding ways to control the pollution, they simply declare by law that the pollution and its effects are good for us.

So you would prefer the pollution that will occur in China to mine rare earth minerals? You would rather that more manufacturing jobs are shipped to China? (Check out the manufacture of the Chevy Volt). You prefer dependance on foreign governments for natural resources, rather than using the great abundance with which we are blessed? IMO this is one of the many reasons we are in a financial mess. A coherent national energy policy, that focuses on using our own resources is the fast way to mitigate the financial mess we are in. It will create jobs, and increase tax revenue.

You complain loudly about the lack of jobs and yet refuse to allow industries that are willing to come to MT because of some bogus notion of "pollution". Again, there is no scientific evidence that anthropomorphic creation of CO2 makes any difference. Yet, the sky "MAYBE MIGHT" fall someday so we need to try creating electricity with mechanisms and processes that are just as environmentally unfriendly, and economically unviable? That is delusional!

Rather than go to "green technology" (which doesn't really exist), why not expand and improve the technology to make coal burn cleaner than it already does? I'd encourage you to take a tour of a new coal-fired power plant. The only thing that is expelled is a little CO2 and water vapor. Everything else is scrubbed out of the exhaust stream. We have moved way beyond 1970's technology. It's time you and other of your ilk quit pretending that nothing has changed technologically. The clean air act of the 70's was one of the best things that ever happened to coal. It frankly, pushed us to adopt new technology. And now that we are "there" we ought to be using what we know rather than chasing the so-called "green-energy" squirrel.

We all have an interest in the production of electricity. Demand for this commodity is going to increase and we are currently short on ways to meet that demand. We ought to put achieving that interest ahead of a position in psuedo-science that is lacking significant credibility. Let's work together to find ways to make the abundant resources we have work even better for our economy and our environment.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/2/2011)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
I know someone with a doctorate in meteorology who is an expert in the field and he says global climate change is real so I'm going with him, rather than someone outside the field with a vested interest in denial.

But the point is, you can't legislate science. You can't pass a law that says gravity is bad and we will all start floating away. Plus this law says it isn't happening but it is good since it is happening which makes NO sense.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
Amorette Allison wrote:
I know someone with a doctorate in meteorology who is an expert in the field and he says global climate change is real so I'm going with him, rather than someone outside the field with a vested interest in denial.

I said that there is no scientific evidence that anthropomorphic creation of CO2 makes any difference. That is very different than saying that there is no global warming or climate change.

Secondly, the production of electricity is something where we all have a vested interest, unless you prefer burning whale oil in your lantern.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/2/2011)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
I am a big fan of electricity and I believe we need to apply some serious brainpower to the problem but my point is:

Amorette Allison wrote:
But the point is, you can't legislate science. You can't pass a law that says gravity is bad and we will all start floating away. Plus this law says it isn't happening but it is good since it is happening which makes NO sense.
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Posted by Bill Freese (+480) 12 years ago
Richard Bonine, Jr. wrote:
why not expand and improve the technology to make coal burn cleaner than it already does?

Because, as Jim Reed's bill specifically states
global warming is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana

You trying to kill a good thing for us?

The point being raised here is not whether or not global warming is caused by human activity. The point is that scientific fact is not determined by the Montana legislature passing a law declaring it to be so. When Indiana passed a law saying that pi was four, it still was not four.
http://www.inwit.com/inwi...pilaw.html
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Posted by Stone (+1596) 12 years ago
Richard, I agree with you. Will yo hire me?

Have you seen Gasland? It was nominated for an Oscar. Are you lighting your water on fire in Wyoming yet. It is pretty cool.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
Will someone please pass a law reducing gravity. I don't want to fly, or anything, but knocking off 20% would be great to see on the bathroom scale every morning. Surely if a legislator passes a law in Helena saying that gravity is 20% less in Montana, we will all automatically be lighter.

I will also like a law passed that slows down the revolution of the earth just a bit. I'm getting older and I don't like it.

Can we pass a law saying that bacon is actually healthy for you and it helps clear out your arteries. That, combined with the other two, would make me a happy camper.

Write your legislator! Get gravity reduced!
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
Here is the text of the bill:

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bi...HB0549.pdf

62nd
Legislature HB0549.01

HOUSE BILL NO. 549 INTRODUCED BY J. READ
A BILL FOR AN ACT ENTITLED: "AN ACT STATING MONTANA'S POSITION ON GLOBAL WARMING; AND PROVIDING AN IMMEDIATE EFFECTIVE DATE."

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:

NEW SECTION. Section 1. Public policy concerning global warming. (1) The legislature finds that to ensure economic development in Montana and the appropriate management of Montana's natural resources it is necessary to adopt a public policy regarding global warming.

(2) The legislature finds:
(a) global warming is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana;

(b) reasonable amounts of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere have no verifiable impacts on
the environment; and

(c) global warming is a natural occurrence and human activity has not accelerated it.

(3) (a) For the purposes of this section, "global warming" relates to an increase in the average
temperature of the earth's surface. (b) It does not include a one-time, catastrophic release of carbon dioxide.

NEW SECTION. Section 2. Codification instruction. [Section 1] is intended to be codified as an integral part of Title 75, chapter 2, and the provisions of Title 75, chapter 2, apply to [section 1].

NEW SECTION. Section 3. Effective date. [This act] is effective on passage and approval.


Bill Freese wrote:
The point being raised here is not whether or not global warming is caused by human activity. The point is that scientific fact is not determined by the Montana legislature passing a law declaring it to be so.

I am really glad to hear you say that, because by the same logic, we can also agree that the EPA has no right to declare and regulate CO2 as a pollutant. Scientific fact is not determined by the EPA. The EPA has no grounds to impact the economy of MT in this fashion. As such, the Mr. Read's bill is unnecessary.

Reality is however, that the EPA IS codifying psuedo-science into law even when the evidence of anthropomorphic creation of CO2 impacting the environment is missing. Seems to me based on the actions of the EPA, Mr. Read has a right to purpose his legislation.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/2/2011)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
Sorry. Writing a bill that says global warming is good for the economy is stupid. Plain and simple stupid. A hundred years from now, we can look back and say it was or wasn't 'good for the economy' but pretending that by writing this bill, it will somehow magically make it 'good for the economy' continues to be STUPID.

I still want gravity reduced, time slowed and bacon made healthy.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
Richard. Is it too much of a stretch to think taking millions of tons of carbon previously sequestered under the earths crust over millions and millions of years(if it suits you - placed there by God when he created the earth 8 or 10 thousand years ago), burning that carbon for fuel, electricity, etc, thus releasing tons and tons of CO2 into the atmosphere over not that many generations, measurably increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, might affect the climate?

Besides all of that - there are plenty of other reasons to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Remember that little spill last year in the gulf? How about a nut case like Ghadafi. Every time one of his ilk goes nutty we end up paying more for gas. GREAT for the economy. Doesn't seem to hurt Exxon's profits, however. Sometimes I think you and Rick work for OPEC.

What really pisses me off about this legislature is their idiotic short-sightedness. I'm sure if they'd been around when we transitioned from horses to the internal combustion engine they'd have fought tooth and nail - probably for all the wrong reasons. They(and you) act as if reducing our dependence on fossil fuels is both impossible and immoral.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
Bob Netherton II wrote:
Is it too much of a stretch to think taking millions of tons of carbon previously sequestered under the earths crust over millions and millions of years(if it suits you - placed there by God when he created the earth 8 or 10 thousand years ago), burning that carbon for fuel, electricity, etc, thus releasing tons and tons of CO2 into the atmosphere over not that many generations, measurably increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, might affect the climate?

If you do the math to look at anthropomorphic creation of CO2 and the dispersion per cubic centimeter over the surface of the earth, the density is so small it is not worth considering. Any volcanic eruption puts several orders of magnitude of CO2 into the air. The notion that a few smokestacks with hundreds of miles in between them even comes close to a volcano is laughable. Further, consider how much heat energy is required to raise the mean global temperature to the reported levels, and what percentage of that number is required to be re-radiated based on the specific heat capacity for CO2 and the resulting numbers are again multiple orders of magnitude apart.

Bob Netherton II wrote:
Besides all of that - there are plenty of other reasons to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Remember that little spill last year in the gulf? How about a nut case like Ghadafi. Every time one of his ilk goes nutty we end up paying more for gas. GREAT for the economy. Doesn't seem to hurt Exxon's profits, however. Sometimes I think you and Rick work for OPEC.

What really pisses me off about this legislature is their idiotic short-sightedness. I'm sure if they'd been around when we transitioned from horses to the internal combustion engine they'd have fought tooth and nail - probably for all the wrong reasons. They(and you) act as if reducing our dependence on fossil fuels is both impossible and immoral.

Fine. What do you want to replace it with that is economically viable and doesn't require mining? The truth is most of the parts in a wind generator or solar panel come from rare earth minerals that we are currently buying from China.

We can and should eliminate our dependance on foreign fossil fuels and start extracting our own. With the current known reserves, we can make it another 150 years.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/2/2011)]
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 12 years ago
Cold Winters, Warm Winters... it's all in there

http://www.numberwatch.co...rmlist.htm

I will say that the closest America has ever come to State Religion (at least since Memorial and Remonstrance) is the government grant-laden Church of Global Warming.

For now though, I guess we'll all have to settle for flushing $535 Mil at a time on Unicorns and Rainbows.

http://www.mercurynews.co...ck_check=1
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
"We can and should eliminate our dependance on foreign fossil fuels and start extracting our own. With the current known reserves, we can make it another 150 years."

And still, even if we extract our own(which we are), prices will still be affected by the global market. Every time someone farts in the Middle East, it stinks here. Despite the cutesy environmentally-friendly adds, the oil companies are interested in one thing. Profit.
My how they suffered when gas was 4 bucks a gallon. Record profits.
Procreate em. They're no better than the tobacco companies.

Now. Let's see your OPEC membership cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...atmosphere

It's so easy.

[This message has been edited by Bob Netherton II (3/4/2011)]
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Posted by Leif Ronning (+64) 12 years ago
This legislative session is making Montana into a national joke. Instead of doing there work and do what they say they were going to do they do stupid stuff like this. They passed two job killing bills, one to kill the recreation industry by restricting access to streams and rivers and kill more jobs by repealing the Medical Marijuana Act that at least produces the pot in Montana instead of buying it from out of state and out of the country drug cartels. Once again this would be an embarrising time to be a republican. Leif
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Posted by Tom Masa (+2208) 12 years ago
I don't understand why they don't just legalize marijauna and then everyone would be happy. It could be taxed so the state/cities would be happy and all the dudes would be happy and high.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 12 years ago
I've heard Coca tea can do wonders for headaches. Probably would do pretty good on 'the Chronic' pain also.

Let's 'create some jobs'
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Posted by dbtrot (+13) 12 years ago
Just a thought from one to another. I'm by no means an authority on global warming or religious conviction, however, after working for NOAA/NMFS I've and have seen many changes good and bad. I've talked to scientists regarding global warming and have gotten both sides of the global warming dispute.

A fact; the ocean encroaches onto the land each year, no matter how hard the people try to impede the erosion. People have built exclusive homes on the beach expect the beaches to stay the same as the day they purchased the land, but beach erosion persists. The Core of Engineers, up and down the eastern coastline, have dump tons of sand to rebuild the coast with no avail. Erosion will continue.

A fact: the fish are perishing at an alarming rate. This is due to overfishing, weather, and the discarding of pollution from factories and city waste into the oceans, rivers and streams.

If anyone is determined to establish a point of view, then anyone can develop the data to confirm or denied any hypothesis. Therefore, it is important not to be sheep, to be open minded, and educate yourself. Do not rely on, "I have a friend who said," check out the data, read, investigate yourself. When we all do that, then and only then, can we speak with conviction on any subject.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
But can you legislate science? That is the argument here. Can I write a law and have it voted on and that will actually change what is happening? I am pretty sure I can't but these Tea Baggers in Helena think they can.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+15599) 12 years ago
But can you legislate science?


I guess if you believe that climate change is mostly result of mans impact on the environment then yes. For example, Cap & Trade legislation. The actual factual science to validate that belief does not exist.

The point of the bill in the MT legislature is to say:
-climate change may be happening, CO2 levels maybe increasing or decreasing;

-the scientific evidence that man-made CO2 has any impact in the overall quantity of CO2 is sorely lacking;

-increases in CO2 always result in more green vegetation, i.e. more hay, higher corn yields, etc;

-we should stop punishing our state economically by not using the resources we can sell and instead sell those resources and put people back to work extracting them and converting them to usable forms like electricity.

Many high-paying union jobs will be created.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (3/8/2011)]
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Posted by dbtrot (+13) 12 years ago
Writing legislation that impacts everyone will always be questioned as everyone will never agree on one thing. Therefore, a bill if, necessary, will need to address the good of all MT, main objective is put people back to work and give the PEOPLE control over government, NOT the government control over people. I must admit to all I am not living in MT, but hope to in a couple of years. My mother grew up in Miles City and we would like to buy a home and retire there. However, I don't think I'll ever be able to retire with the economy in the shape it is in. Thanks for letting me intrude in your forum.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6173) 12 years ago
You're not intruding, dbtrot. All are welcome here. Even crazies, as you will soon discover if you stick around.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+12830) 12 years ago
Sigh. The point is this dingbat is writing a law that says global warming doesn't exist and if it does, it is great for the economy. Writing that will not make it so. This has nothing to do with cap and trade. It has to do with people who are crazy and think passing a law will make them into Captain Picard. It won't.
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+18775) 12 years ago
It might not make them into Captain Picard. But it might make them into Cactus Plains.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 12 years ago
But if you write a bill that says 25% of your electrical needs must be supplied by Rainbows and Unicorns... then it's all good.
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Posted by dbtrot (+13) 12 years ago
Thanks Wendy, but I've found crazies here too. Probably more so here as we not only deal with the environmentist but the "My family has done this for years and I am going to do this forever." Two sides, both won't give an inch. They write law after law, which doesn't help the environment nor the people. There is no clear cut answer, and no proposed bill or law will change this. The real world is not perfect and not even close to being black or white.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
To me the only answer is education...Ignorance is a terrible thing to deal with no matter what the subject...

[This message has been edited by howdy (3/9/2011)]
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Posted by dbtrot (+13) 12 years ago
You are so right, no matter if is voting, or just trying to get a job. This is why we are all in trouble, no one wants to take the time to learn about the world or their community.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6173) 12 years ago
My lovely legislature is considering a bill that would make school board elections partisan, meaning that the candidates would have to reveal their party affiliations. It's simply one more way to ensure that the extremist element of the Republican party gains more control of our education system. My kid is almost done here, thank goodness, and we are strongly encouraging her to go elsewhere for college.
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