and it begins-congresswomen shot
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Posted by Stone (+1596) 10 years ago
and it begins. I am just sick to my stomach. What the procreate is wrong with this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/20...fords.html
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 10 years ago
Yeah, putting gun sights on maps and suggesting followers reload is in NO way encouragement for the mentally unstable to shoot someone! Yes, gun sights and reloading implies actual guns being used but only someone mentally unstable would think actual shooting was intended.

Which is sort of the point.

Sigh.

Oh, and a federal judge and several others, reportedly including a 9-year-old child, died.

[This message has been edited by Amorette Allison (1/8/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Q: What do you call one of Sarah Palin's death panels?

A: Jared Lee Loughner


(I know it isn't funny. I didn't intend it to be.)
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
"Rep. Giffords and all victims in today's shooting are in my prayers. Those responsible must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," tweeted Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.).

I wonder if Bachmann includes Sarah Palin among "those responsible."

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Palin should be prosecuted. She did something really really stupid but she didn't do anything criminal.

It's just that for once I'd like to see a person that talks all the time about personal responsibility actually TAKE some by stepping up to the plate and saying, "I didn't mean to, but I see how my statements and actions contributed to this tragedy. And from this day forward, I will NOT be using violent metaphors in my campaign speeches and literature, and I will strongly condemn any individual or group who does so on my behalf."

THAT would be leadership.
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Posted by polar bear (+509) 10 years ago
Would love to see Palin, Beck, and a few others take that vow. Inciting the mentally ill with crosshairs and mandates to "reload" is reprehensible.
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 10 years ago
I would include Palin the the mentally ill catagory! A sane person doesn't post things that Palin has posted. A sane person doesn't incite people to violence.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 10 years ago
It may be wise to wait a bit before you assume this person was motivated by Mrs. Palin.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
Perhaps Levi, but the statistics are on Steve's side.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Do you really think so, Levi?

I'm not sure how we will ever know what role Palin's PAC-crap had on the shooter. And what standard would you apply -- Beyond a reasonable doubt? How do we reach that? On another track, how many more incidents like this do we have to go through before we can conclude with certainty the degree to which violence-tinged hyperbole truly has on inciting actual acts of violence?

You may *(probably) think I've jumped the gun by associating Palin's ads with this kook's actions. But I'm not going to to wait for a ____% of certainty before asking for Palin/Beck/Etc. to clean up their act. Here's why.

The effect that using gun- and battle-related metaphors in campaign literature and other political discourse country is horrible. If it didn't lead to THIS particular tragedy, then it's only a matter of time before it results in a similarly tragic event. And in the meantime, the quality of political discourse suffers and our elected leaders become more and more isolated from us because of the fear (legitimate or perceived) that any public appearance could be their last.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
But Steve, what about the Weather Underground?
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 10 years ago
Time for the NRA to rally in Tucson.
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Posted by Kyle L. Varnell (+3745) 10 years ago
I've only been following this so much as a tragic event has happened. I hope the Congresswoman recovers fully and can return to the House.

That said, what does Sarah Palin have to do with this?
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
C'mon Kyle. Don't play dumb. It doesn't suit you.

However, if you persist in insisting that Sarah had nothing to do with the assault on Rep. Giffords and others, then you can take it up with the Congresswowan herself because here's what she said:



In an interview last year with the MSNBC television network, Giffords cited a map of electoral targets put out by former Alaska Republican Governor and prominent conservative Sarah Palin, each marked by the crosshairs of a rifle sight.

"When people do that, they've got to realize that there's consequences to that action," Giffords told MSNBC.



[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (1/9/2011)]
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 10 years ago
I just saw a chat log with someone claiming to be his friend that said he was a big fan of Anti-flag and he hated religion. Not the typical tea party profile. On the other hand, based on his youtube channel, he was mostly just completely insane.
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Posted by K.Duffy (+1807) 10 years ago
I don't get out much...but even so, I occasionally hear what I "assume" to be, 'posturing' talk from teabagger types. "..they'll know we're serious when we open fire on gov. workers!.." or, "..I'm stockpiling guns&ammo! I'm ready!" It only takes one wing-nut with a gun ... Is anyone else nervous when they hear stuff like that?
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
"he was mostly just completely insane."

And your point is???

Our point (I use the Royal "our" and "we" because I'm not alone in this) ---

Our point is that there are a LOT of insane people out there. It doesn't matter if they belong to the Tea Party or the Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan... they hear inflamed speech and it lights their fire! And the next thing you know, they're opening fire.

So let us be very clear. WE don't think the Tea Party is responsible for the shooting.

We do hold their leaders responsible for fanning the flames of people who are prone to violence through their speeches, literature, and failure to control the presence of inflammatory images (Obama/Hitler posters) at their rallies.

And we hold Tea Partiers responsible for failing to hold their leaders (Sarah Palin) to an acceptable standard of political dialog.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (1/9/2011)]
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Posted by Still here (+27) 10 years ago
This guy was a violent person, not a liberal or conservative or sarah palin freak. He was no white supremise or a anti-government nut,he was simply a violent person. By putting any other label on him we victimize more people.

[This message has been edited by Still here (1/9/2011)]
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 10 years ago
By putting any other label on him we victimize more people.


WTF?
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Posted by Carol Quale (+133) 10 years ago
After hearing more about the shooter and that he wrote rantings on the internet that "don't make sense", is anyone else concerned by rantings of local folk that may also appear "unhinged"?
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 10 years ago
You mean the folks at milescityhome.com?
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Bet this guy had a bad day.



These things always come full circle though. As many are pointing out today, during Ft. Hood, we had to be told not to leap to conclusions. Now we're telling others the same thing.

I think the easiest lesson for me to take out of this stuff is to slow down and let things process a little before saying anything. The 24/7 news cycle is making us lose our minds to a degree.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Carol,

I'm going to assume you are talking about the guys over at MCHome.com and not me....

In an amazingly coincidently way, you just answered Kelly's "question" regarding Still Here's statement.

If all that comes out of the Tucson Tragedy is a heightened suspicion and fear of mentally ill people, then it will be a tragedy extended.

If the tragedy leads to true concern about mentally ill people that in turn leads to improved access to mental health care through 1) expanded services and 2) inclusion in all health insurance policies, then something really good will have come from this tragedy.
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Posted by Carol Quale (+133) 10 years ago
I personally have not been to the site because I have a hard enough time understanding what some folks write here. I'm just saying, hate filled rantings are concerning. I like good debate - the hate.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 10 years ago
Well, my point is that maybe you could wait until you know the whole story before becoming incredibly sanctimonious and laying blame on people who were at most on the peripheral based on absolutely nothing but prejudiced assumptions.
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Posted by Still here (+27) 10 years ago
Carol Quale you sound like your are speaking from fear, you automatically assume others are speaking from hate because of this fear. I am the web master at mchome.com and I am interested in speaking about the politics in my way, not yours.I don't speak out of hate or fear, I speak from personal experience and concern for my family's future. As we all should be concerned about a violent person shooting up the town and killing childeren. I caution people against giving up liberty for security, because that is what these people want. Don't worry about me, I will never bring violence as a form of grievance. I at the penticle of my pissed offiness would walk into the woods like Dick Primocke(my hero), and leave you city dwellers with your rules. The trouble with doing this now is the cops would come take my kids, they would call it neglct. It was good enough for our grand parents but not good enough for us .
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Feel better now, Levi?
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Yeah, see - Still Here doesn't speak out of hate. He is totally fear-based. Only a complete coward would have an interest in abandoning civilization. Coward.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 10 years ago
Do you disagree that all this bloviating is based on prejudiced assumptions? If so, perhaps you could present some of your evidence to the contrary. I don't particularly disagree with the points about the level of political rhetoric, but I find what you're doing here very distasteful.
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Posted by Carol Quale (+133) 10 years ago
I do not know you and you do not know me. Assumptions breed the same hate I'm talking about.

I like when people think about their words and how it affects others and if they are in it to educate or to perpetuate hate.
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Posted by Kyle L. Varnell (+3745) 10 years ago
I wasn't playing dumb Steve, I just hadn't heard much about it other than a congresswoman was shot. Sarah and others like her need to be more cautious about the words they choose to use and should probably be held to account when things like this happen.
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+763) 10 years ago
I think the local sheriff there was on the right track when he spoke about what's going wrong with American civility. Too bad we can't work on helping sick people, and teaching right from wrong.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Levi says: I find what you're doing here very distasteful.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Levi. You know I think highly of you and I respect your analysis of most issues. But this is just one of those times when I am going to have to do and say what I think is right despite what you and Richard and others might think.

A lot of folks on the right are saying this "isn't the right time". To which I ask: When is there a "right" time? and, If not now, when???
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Posted by Still here (+27) 10 years ago
In one of his online rants, Loughner said that he was a "United States Military recruit at MEPS in Phoenix". Reports suggest that he also may have been deployed to Afghanistan at one point.

"The mission of USMEPCOM and the Phoenix MEPS is to process individuals for enlistment or induction into the armed services," states the website of the United States Military Entrance Processing Command.

The fact that Loughner was part of the US military and yet is being characterized as an anti-government conspiracy nutcase by the establishment media is a complete contradiction. Loughner's multitude of viewpoints seem to transcend political classification. Watching his You Tube videos, he is clearly a schizophrenic who is obsessed with mind control and other bizarre leftfield issues of minutia
My guess is he is a returning victim of Pres Bush's war. Janet Napolotono was right our vet have become terrorist by government standards and of their making. The peasants get sent to war then tramatized ,sent home to adjust in a place that is now foreighn toyou. Why don't some of you realize what our young soldiers are giving up for us.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
"Watching his You Tube videos, he is clearly a schizophrenic who is obsessed with mind control and other bizarre leftfield issues of minutia"

You mean like this:

http://milescity.com/foru...pid=167554

[This message has been edited by Mary B. (1/9/2011)]
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Posted by polar bear (+509) 10 years ago
Psychosis does not mean the diagnosis is schizophrenia.
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Posted by Brandon Loomis (+96) 10 years ago
The op asked what is wrong with this country. Somebody made a horrible decision and everyone wants to blame someone else to fit there own political beliefs instead of holding the person who did it responsible. Rather than hold people accountable everyone wants to point a finger. To assume political media put out a year ago is connected in any way is just a cheap political trick. Doesn't matter which party you follow they all use them and this is a great example. People shouldn't be so gullible.
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Posted by Bill Freese (+479) 10 years ago
I watched all of Jared Lee Loughner's videos on You Tube.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

They did not make me think of liberals or conservatives. They made me think of some college art projects I have seen. Much as I dislike the Half-governor of Alaska, I would want to see a lot more evidence before laying the blame for this at her expensively clad feet.

As for whether or not Jared is crazy, anybody who would do this is crazy. But, since we can't kill him if he is crazy, it is very important now to pretend that he is sane.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
You're right, Brandon. People shouldn't be so gullible.

But the fact is that there are mentally ill and unstable people in this country. And the other fact is that people with mental impairments aren't responsible for their actions or REactions. Or their gullibility.

I'll leave it to the legal authorities to determine whether the person who committed the crime can be held accountable for his actions or not. That's outside the public's sphere of influence (or at least it should be). And that's why I'm not focused on the individual.

And it will never be completely settled as to whether or not the political rhetoric of the past two years/decades/centuries had an undue influence on this particular individual. My position is that doesn't matter. Our political discourse is dysfunctional and it needs to be fixed.

One way to fix that is for us, the public, to hold our leaders accountable for what they do and say. And when they or their followers go too far, responsible leaders ON BOTH SIDES should immediately and strongly condemn that speech or those actions. That's all I'm advocating, but apparently that is distasteful to some, disappointing to others, and threatening to a few.

If you want to twist that around to where you mistakenly think anyone, including me, is trying to shift blame from the shooter, then you're missing the point and barking up the wrong tree.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (1/9/2011)]
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Posted by Mike Wallick (+174) 10 years ago
Bill Freese....right on.

...except for the part about us being able to kill him. Murder is murder, and murder is wrong. End capital punishment.
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Posted by polar bear (+509) 10 years ago
I am SO with you Mike.
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Posted by Still here (+27) 10 years ago
Any one calling to kill this guy is mislead, he is an American veteran of war.I was originally mad as well, after taking a breath I see thatthis has the makigs of a false flag attack. After his admission papers he's records got lost or scattered about. It only shows that he was in route to afganistan. It is president bush that sent our young mpressional countrymen to battle. Now they return home with ptsd and we throw them to the wolves. Their are more victims here than yall know.
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Posted by Bob L. (+5094) 10 years ago
Mary B wrote:
"Watching his You Tube videos, he is clearly a schizophrenic who is obsessed with mind control and other bizarre leftfield issues of minutia"

You mean like this:

http://milescity.com/foru...pid=167554





Yikes.
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Posted by Still here (+27) 10 years ago
This guy was a definant left wing liberal Hack. Glad to be a Ron Paul conservative. Only common since on this side of the tracks. This is a perfect example of what you get with democratic liberals. May we get a real leader one day RON PAUL!!!

[This message has been edited by Still here (1/10/2011)]
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Posted by souix (+301) 10 years ago
.he is an American veteran of war


It looks as though you need another theory, as he was rejected when he attempted to join the Army.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 10 years ago
"This guy was a definant left wing liberal Hack."

Please elaborate, as I call b.s.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
"Possession of Driver's License" == Left Wing Hack.

It is instructive to see how quick the good folks of mchome are to dump their fellow travelers.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Here's what bigsky is saying on mch.com.

do we really care if a politician who sends our children away to die in foreign wars gets popped herself? it would seem that no one is imune to the biblical saying..."he who lives by the sword dies by the sword"
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
Sigh....

One of my favorite quotes

An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind. ~ Mahatma Gandhi
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
and perhaps it has....
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Posted by Brandon Loomis (+96) 10 years ago
Steve I didn't mean the kid that did this was gullible. I said the people who buy into political cheap shots like"Sara Palin is to blame!" are gullible. I also said that both political parties use these. And I wish people would quit assuming stuff about the shooter. From what I've read so far he isn't a former military member and no mental illness has been proven. Why are people talking about them?
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
You'd have to be an idiot to believe anything other than this guy being mentally ill.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
BL: I said the people who buy into political cheap shots like"Sara Palin is to blame!" are gullible.

SC: I'm not saying SaraH is to blame for the shooting. I'm saying Sarah and people like here ON BOTH SIDES are to blame for degrading the quality of political debates. Rightly or wrongly, the Tucson tragedy is a catalyst of this discussion. It's a discussion that's been needed for a long time. Let's have it.

BL: I also said that both political parties use these.

SC: I agree. Both sides need to clean up their act. So let's get 'er done and quit arguing over who's worse.

BL: And I wish people would quit assuming stuff about the shooter. From what I've read so far he isn't a former military member and no mental illness has been proven. Why are people talking about them?

SC: Here we have a problem. Unless you've got an inside track into the investigation and unless the investigation has made miraculous progress in a few days, there is no way to know what the shooter's mental state is at this point. So I'm assuming what you've read has come from the media. I've learned to not trust the media, especially in tense situations. The military stuff is fairly easy to nail down, but his mental state is something I prefer to leave to the experts and the court system to decide - not FOX NEWS or NPR or AP.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Mind control? Grammar? You don't need to be an expert.
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Posted by Brandon Loomis (+96) 10 years ago
I brought up the mental state because a lot of posts on mc.com have already diagnosed him and a few said he was a member of the military. And quite a few on here, media, and elsewhere are placing blame on Palin and it's all silly.
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Posted by Steve Allison (+981) 10 years ago
Ok, both sides are guilty of heated polarizing speech, which in my opinion makes them both as guilty of inflaming such actions. The trouble is, there is money to be made and for some officials, a few vote to get, with this divisive rhetoric. Talk show hosts get a larger audience which brings more ad revenue, politicians get money contributions and some votes and the rest of us loss. Creating an atmosphere where people can not negotiate to a workable solution, keeps solutions from being found, which hurts us all. Another negative about this preaching dome every time the opposing side wins or achieves something, is that some individuals barely connected to reality, feel violent action is the only solution left. In a democracy, violent action against the government, should never be seen as the only action, there should always be compromise, calm debate and working towards the next election as the best path for the future.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
Per Ms. Palin's video regarding the shooting,

Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own, they begin and end with the criminals who commit them


Touche. Please keep this in mind at all times, not solely when it is convenient to your viewpoint.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
While no mental illness has been "proven" it's pretty clear that Loughner was disturbed. Of course, having a mental illness doesn't necessarily excuse his behavior. If he knew that what he was doing was wrong he could still stand trial and be found guilty. If his schizophrenia shows that he was so ill that he didn't know what he was doing then the insanity defense may be used. In any event, he'll be insitutionalized for a very long time.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
So now we've heard from Ms. Palin. I think her response will deepen existing sentiments toward her: those who think she is great will be even more committed to her, and those who don't will find everything they need in her words to strengthen their opinion.

The key question will be how it plays for those who previously held no strong opinion.

And so it goes...

On another note, thank God the Arizona legislature acted UNANIMOUSLY to ban protests at funerals. I understand that it won't stop the Westboro Whackos from doing their thing, but at least it will keep them from disturbing the event and causing deeper pain to those who are already suffering unimaginable anguish. It's a sad day when we need laws to prevent such obviously outrageous and immoral acts. UGH! Well, I never thought I'd say this, but kudos to the Arizona Lege.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 10 years ago
She actually used the term "blood libel", which is even sillier when used in the context of someone shooting a Jewish woman.

And by silly, I mean completely procreating r-worded.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (1/12/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Worse than the term "blood libel" is the timing of her statement. Why on the day of the funerals? That seems every bit as disrectful as the sins she is accusing the media and folks like me of committing - and actually even more so.

But I guess that's the way to garner the most headlines. It seems Sarah is a believer in the old phrase, "There is no such thing as bad publicity." Especially if you can upstage President Obama.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 10 years ago
Does anyone remember John Hinckley? You know. He was the person with severe mental illness who attempted to assassinate Reagan with the idea that the act would somehow get attention from Jody Foster - the object of his obsession.

By bringing this up I'm not directly saying Palin is in anyway responsible for the Giffords assassination attempt. We may never know Loughner's motivation. But coupled with the fact Palin likes to use imagery like gunsights surveyor's marks and has a fervant following even among her crazed normal followers, linking Palin with this sort of violence is not a stretch.
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Posted by souix (+301) 10 years ago
[This message has been edited by souix (1/12/2011)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
I really hope that Sarah Palin doesn't know what blood libel means. I hope that her speech writers stuck it in and she just thought it sounded cool. The alternative is that she knows exactly what it means, in which case her use of it in this context is especially disturbing.
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Posted by Mike Wallick (+174) 10 years ago
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
Sarah Palin, when asked to define the terms blood, libel, and blood libel:

"Blood. Well, blood is the oopy goopy juice we all have inside of us. Jesus's turned to wine!"

"Libel. Libel, lie-bill. Libel is a bill written by a Democratic."

"Blood libel. A bill written by a democrat with the intent of destroying our rights. They're trying to take our rights away. Well, we'll see about that, won't we!"
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
I just saw that blood libel incident. She is really and truly the dumbest b*tch on the planet. She is being accused of creating the violent rhetoric, then is coming out to tell us how we can't let this incident become violent rhetoric toward her and her idiot supporters. Wow. wow

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (1/12/2011)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Ya know, I'm just getting home from work and I haven't checked the news websites yet, so I'm hoping that the Sarah 'quotes' that Buck posted above are just things he made up. Please please be satire!!!

If it is satire, then that is hilarious Buck.

If it isn't satire, then ---- oh my.

But just the fact that it sounds like something she could have said is really sad. When a public figure (nee leader) has a history of saying such outlandish things that it is nearly impossible to distinguish satire from reality when it comes to her quotes... well, maybe Barbara Bush said it best. She needs to stay in Alaska.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 10 years ago
No, I just made it up. I could be Sarah Palin, though.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I love how the same people who were drug Palin into this while the hospital OR was still mid-frenzy now question other people's sense of timing.

And Bob, the Hinckley analogy doesn't really fit. Hinckley got the idea of assassinating Reagan because of his own fascination with Jodie Foster and the fact that she starred in a movie where the hero tried to assassinate a presidential candidate to get her attention.

He was reality following after fiction. But at least it was something he was actually exposed to. Palin's involvement in this is purely due to the imagination of her critics.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
Do you also love how the same people who believe all Muslims should be penalized for the 9-11 terrorists are now screaming at the top of their lungs about personal responsibility and how the evil doings of an individual stop with that individual?

I know I sure do. It's been most illuminating.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Even that's more rational. At least 'Muslim' is something that they, in fact, were. It might be a gross generalization, but at least it was based on something that was actually true.

In this case, the haters actually preordained this guy as some sort of Palinista in order to fulfill their own view of the world.

Now that that's no longer plausible, they're still trying to maintain some sort of incoherent indictment on the right completely unrelated to anything that happened in Arizona.

Not everything has to come down to politics.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 10 years ago
My point in bringing up Hinckley, Rick, is there are people out there vulnerable to this sort of thing. And you are correct, the circumstances surrounding the attempt on Reagan's life are different in many respects. Use YOUR imagination, Rick. Palin has a cult-like following. Can't you imagine someone out there, like a Hinckley, wanting to please his/her heroine?

In the meantime - Palin already has her own stalker problem.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
I love how the same people who jumped all over me now see nothing wrong with Sarah Palin's sense of timing.

It's really funny. I'm just a little guy, a schmuck. I've never claimed to have the wisdom or judgment to run the ENTIRE COUNTRY or to commit our troops to battle in distant lands. I have opinions, sure, and I exercise my right to express them. It's about the only exercise I get.

It seems strange that the standard for measuring Sarah Palin's judgment would be me. I have never once aspired to hold the highest office in the land, let alone make decisions about whether to rely on diplomacy or lethal force (remember, that's "lethal" as in "killing and injuring many, many people" lethal.

But now at least we know what the standards you Palinites have for your leader. Pretty damn low. And THAT explains a lot of things.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (1/12/2011)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
I'm not talking about the Palin link. I'm referring to the concern that he can remotely be linked to Republicans/the right-wing/the Tea Party/[insert your phrase here]. It matters not whether he was actually affiliated with Republicans/the right-wing/the Tea Party/[insert your phrase here].

At just the hint of the possibility, the same people who had no problem whatsoever lumping in all Muslims, now pull out quotes from Ronald Reagan about restoring the American precept that each individual is responsible for his own actions and believe that acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own, beginning and ending with the criminals who commit them. If you truly believe this, then the whole mosque issue was moot. The 9-11 terrorists shared a religion with a vast group of people...the Tucson gunman shared many interests with groups of people, such as a penchant for Drowning Pool. But, on one hand, we are to penalize the first individuals, yet let the actions of the second individual be scrutinized without parallel.

Interesting disparity.

[This message has been edited by Denise Selk (1/12/2011)]
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
Except that it isn't a disparity because this guy wasn't a Republican or a Tea Partier or a Palin follower.

Lumping Muslims in with the 'bad' ones at least assumes that they all have that one thing in common.

In this case there was nothing in common. The link was imagined from scratch by those who can't imagine bad things happening without dirty Republicanses / Teabaggers / Mama Grizzlies behind it.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Careful Denise - you are getting mighty close to being declared a partisan hack.

If that happens, I hope you'll consider joining a new organization I recently formed called Partisan Hacks Against Big Ugly Lies and Liars in the United States.

It's a PHABULLUS group and I think you'll enjoy it!
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Lumping Muslims in with the 'bad' ones at least assumes that they all have that one thing in common.


Holy mother of butter, Rick. Did you REALLY just say that????

OK, here. The shooter is caucasian. Therefore, all caucasians are potential assassins.

Is that the kind of logic you want to defend???
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
I don't think I'm the one at all coming close to being a partisan hack. I've not stated that this gunman was anything with certainty, unlike

Except that it isn't a disparity because this guy wasn't a Republican or a Tea Partier or a Palin follower.


Are you an investigator on this case that you are privy to all of the hundreds or thousands of pieces of information so far collected on this man? I can't say for sure, but I think not.

I'm completely reserving judgment, as anyone with any sanity should be doing. I don't know this man, his family or his victims. How would my opinion matter one bit? Other than, of course, my taste in music being viciously attacked.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
OK, here. The shooter is caucasian. Therefore, all caucasians are potential assassins.


Well, we do know, for a fact, that almost all serial killers are caucasian men. Perhaps all you caucasian men should be locked up for our protection.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
Oh, and do you see where it is irrelevant what he really was? The arguments about personal responsibility were being shouted BEFORE anything was determined as to his political affiliation. Just at the hint of ties, he was being denounced as solely responsible for his crimes, by the very same people completely willing to discriminate against millions of people because of the actions of a few adherents.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Sorry Denise. I was just kidding. You are so NOT a partisan hack.

I know partisan hacks. Partisan hacks are friends of mine. And you, my dear, are NO partisan hack. :!

Still, you don't want to "p" me off - after all, I am a caucasian male and I think I'm going through menopause taboot!
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1670) 10 years ago
And that sweater vest is most intimidating.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
OH, I dumped the sweater vest when the hot flashes started up. Now I run around in a speedo!

(Gawd, even I don't want to envision THAT!)
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I'm not defending any logic. Just pointing out that some of the worst examples of ' guilt by loose association' still make far more sense than the frenzy we've seen here.

This is new territory.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Sure we are, Rick. And Ms. Palin's suffering is unprecendented in modern times. These past few days have been soooo painful for her that only the centuries of persecution of an entire group of people can compare with it.

To quote a phrase - PUH-lease.

If Ms. Palin can't stand the heat, she should stay out of the spotlight.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4463) 10 years ago
I can't say it'd bother me much if that were to happen. But I guess its easy for me to say because deep down I know you guys will never allow it. I'm beginning to think you need Sarah more than we do
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
One has to wonder if Crapduck's strawman is wearing a speedo. I'm guess'n it is more like a "slowo".
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Forget the speedo and the slowo (whatever that is) --- for you and you alone, Richard, I'm going commando!
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Thank you so much for that graphic image, Steve. I'm going to go shove sharp sticks in my eyes now.
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Posted by aaron bruce (+193) 10 years ago
hey all you milescity.commies........muslims are responsible for 911 like sarah palin is responsible for that congresswoman getting shot. you leftists are rediculous and loosers....hey amorette the only hall of power you will ever walk is in your own coummunist mind.
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 10 years ago
Pot meet Kettle
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Wendy - I'll take responsibility for the speedo line. But as for the the full monty / full moon (which one depends on if you live north or south of Mason Dick-son line): Well, I would have never stooped to that if it weren't for Richard's prodding.

So you see, like the vast majority of MC.commie calamities, it's Richard's fault.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
One question: Where did they get my baby photo?
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
Second question: Is that Jerry Partridge in the middle photo wearing a black beanie cap?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Thanks for the laugh, Richard!
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+14950) 10 years ago
One question: Where did they get my baby photo?


Are you sure that is you? Can't believe there is a baby picture of you without a webbed foot in your mouth.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
My webbed foot is immediately behind you, Richard -- tho it won't be visible to you since it's been firmly planted where the sun doesn't shine for the past few days.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 10 years ago
LOL, Steve....
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2743) 10 years ago
AP reports that "The suspect in the mass shooting in Arizona posed for photos with a gun, dressed only in a bright red G-string...."

More proof that truth is stranger than fiction - even in this thread. Ugh!
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 10 years ago
Speedos, going commando and now a red g-string? Steve, you are seriously close to revealing more of yourself than you should.
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