Since we need a nice controversial thread to perk things up around here, I came up with one. Go, Me!!!!

It used to be, flags were flown at half staff for the death of presidents or senators or Supreme Court justices. Now, every time anybody who wears a uniform dies, the Governor orders flags to half staff. I suspect he didn't intend for it to get out of hand but once he did it for one person, he had to do it for everyone else.

The latest was some Army guy who did not die in combat. He was here, in the U.S., and his cause of death was never released. So how come he deserves the national flag lowered to half staff? Just because he was in the Army?

How about lowering the state flag for state residents and saving the national flag for national mourning. I mean, I feel sorry for the family of the guy from Jordan but does he deserve such recognition? And when does it stop? Do we lower the flag for anyone who ever wore a uniform of any kind and died? Flag will never get back up to the top if we do that.

How's THAT for a controversial subject?!?!?!

Having watched a documentary on a platoon of soldiers in Afganistan.. seeing what they go thru...

this soldier that died here in the US was WILLING, if he had to, (maybe he already did) go to a warzone and possibly die for his country overseas...

No matter, he was a person who was willing to die for his country and even though he might have not been overseas, he still deserves recognition for what he was and what he was willing to do

My flag is flown the way I want it to. Because that's how I think it should be. It is at half mast a LOT more often than when the governor orders it. All I have to do is hear about the death of a local veteran and halfway down she comes. I've had people ask why, but never complain. I am not on the governor's email list, he didn't even accept a friend request on facebook, I might not know when he orders flags flown at half-mast. I'm not sure I'm even required to comply with such an order.
???
Great topic.

How about lowering the state flag for state residents and saving the national flag for national mourning. I mean, I feel sorry for the family of the guy from Jordan but does he deserve such recognition? And when does it stop? Do we lower the flag for anyone who ever wore a uniform of any kind and died? Flag will never get back up to the top if we do that.

How's THAT for a controversial subject?!?!?!

meh.... I agree with you, so it isn't that controversial.

Let me help you out by channelling my inner-Cactus Plains:

I am pretty sure the boys over at MCHome.com would say that the flag has been taken down completely.

What about half staff to honor other citizens?
Only the president of the United States or the governor of the state may order the flag to be at half-staff to honor the death of a national or state figure.
In additional to the traditional half-staff salutes when proclaimed by the President, the Flag Code mentions the use of our Flag for honoring citizens who have died, especially government officials and prominent citizens. However, the Flag Code does not exclude any citizen, whether they belong to an organization or not, whether they are recognized very locally or regionally. Examples of deceased citizens that might be honored with by lowering the Flag to half-staff include local religious leaders, youth leaders, honored teachers or sports coaches, local politicians, or a local hero. There need be no authorization from the government for the private sector (non-government) to use the Flag to honor any citizen. It is important to note that the Flag Code is a code, not a Law, it is intended to provide guidance and is not obligatory. It carries no civil or criminal penalties for "misuse" of the Flag. Individual are not acting illegally when using the Flag according to their own usage. Only on government / public building is the flag code required to be followed.

Flag Code Modifications for Half-Staff at a Federal Facility
Federal Facilities must follow States lead with Half-Staff proclamations.
The Flag Code half-staffing requirements was modified with new legislation signed into effect on June 29, 2007 by President Bush. The new legislation requires any federal facility within a region which proclaims half-staffing to honor a member of the US Armed Forces who died on active duty must follow the half-staffing proclamation. For example, if there is a US military fort in your state, and your Governor issues a Half-Staff proclamation, the the US military fort must follow the proclamation. This applies to all Governors of a State, possession or territory, or the Mayor of the District of Columbia. The text as adopted is shown below.

(a) ISSUANCE OF PROCLAMATION.- Subsection (m) of section 7 of title 4, United States Code, is amended in the sixth sentence -

(1) by inserting "or the death of a member of the Armed Forces from any State, territory, or possession who dies while serving on active duty" after "present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States"; and
(2) by inserting before the period the following: ", and the same authority is provided to the Mayor of the District of Columbia with respect to present or former officials of the District of Columbia and members of the Armed Forces from the District of Columbia."

(b) FEDERAL FACILITY CONSISTENCY WITH PROCLAMATION. - Such subsection is further amended by inserting after the sixth sentence the following new sentence: "When the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, or the Mayor of the District of Columbia, issues a proclamation under the preceding sentence that the National flag be flown at half-staff in that State, territory, or possession or in the District of Columbia because of the death of a member of the Armed Forces, the National flag flown at any Federal installation or facility in the area covered by that proclamation shall be flown at half-staff consistent with that proclamation.".

The soldier from Jordan had a stroke while on active duty in a war zone and later died from complications due to it.

He earned the right....

That soldier from Jordan was a special forces soldier highly decorated and was deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan. He saved countless Lives of other soldiers as a army medic. he deserves the right to the flag at half staff he was a great loss to the community and to the armed forces.I knew him well and he is greatly missed.
Aaron Phipps

From what I heard, the stroke was not just from natural causes, it was from an injury to the head during active duty. He deserved the honor or the flag being half staff. My sympathy goes out to the family.

So, we lower the flag every time a service member who was in combat dies.

But what about non-combatant support staff? Do they deserve a half staff salute? Do we lower it for current service members only or when someone who was in the service and retired dies?

If someone served twenty years as a clerk, do they 'deserve' a flag being lowered? Or does service only count if someone tried to kill you and succeeded?

What about police/fire/ etc. who die in the line of duty? We don't want to pay them but we do we want to honor them. And do we honor them ONLY if they died in the line of the duty, not after 30 years of service and dropped dead shoveling the sidewalk.

I'm not not sure how I feel beyond that I'm glad I don't have to keep track of the zillion times a year the flag goes up and down these days. And if you were on the mailing list, you would know that the flag goes up and down several times a month.

If an honor becomes commonplace, is it still an honor?

[This message has been edited by Amorette Allison (1/4/2011)]

As the wife of a Vietnam vet that suffers from PTSD, it doesn't take much to offend me regarding vets.

I don't know how to copy and paste a quote so pardon me:

"The latest was some Army guy who did not die in combat. He was here, in the U.S., and his cause of death was never released. So how come he deserves the national flag lowered to half staff? Just because he was in the Army?"

That "Army guy" more than deserved the flag lowered to half mast. I admit I have wondered why there have been so many lowered flags, but couldn't it have been asked without referring to the "Army guy" in Jordan. That must have really hurt his family; dealing with his death and and hearing of a "Controversial flag post" asking if he deserved a flag at half mast. Sad.

[This message has been edited by C.Kee (1/4/2011)]

So, your panties are in a wad because too many people are getting honored when they die?

Me thinks Amorette is more interested in being controversial for the sake of being controversial than in being controversial because she cares about the issue she raised. In other words I think she is at half-mast.

Half staff, Richard. I am NOT on a boat.

Seriously, though, lowering the flag used to be a big deal for only very important national figures. Now it is for lots of folks and I just think that the honor has become too commonplace to be an honor. None of vets of Viet Nam got the flag lowered for them because, while they also served in a pointless political rat hole of a war, lowering the flag then was meant for persons of NATIONAL importance.

Again, what is the criteria? A uniform? Dying in combat? Dying after serving behind a desk for 30 years? Dying in a current war? Dying as a veteran from a previous war? Give me a solid, easy to understand criteria for lowering the flag to half STAFF. Right now, there doesn't seem to be one and I think there should be because there are people who AREN'T in the military who deserve to be honored as well.

And it beats chatting about rats at Wally World.

[This message has been edited by Amorette Allison (1/4/2011)]

Amorette...

Anyone who serves overseas deserves the right to have special recognition. Reg was a Green Baret, who had an anoerism while he was on base serving this country. He was a war hero, and he did have injuries that may have contributed to his death. He was also a father, a son and a friend. He was mourned in the state of Carolina where he was stationed for 10+ years, and his funeral was overflowing in a gymnasium full of people in an all out blizzard.

Anyone who thinks that making such a statement as "Since we need a nice controversial thread to perk things up around here, I came up with one. Go, Me!!!!" and then proceeds to basically ask why we should honor someone who died while serving our country....should have said...Stop Me

I would be embarrased to meet his family on the street, and I sure hope that none of his family sees this. Service men and women are someone who should be admired and respected and deserve none less than a flag flown at half staff (and who does the flag being lowered hurt)when they die, whether it be in combat or otherwise, as they carry the burden of their time spent overseas their whole lives, it does not stop when they come home.

Mollie Phipps

Amorette,
You have posted some real crap on here but you've beat your old record with this post. Maybe you need to get a life. Maybe you should volunteer with wounded veterans. Or volunteer at the nursing home with the old vets...the few that are left. Or maybe just shut up if you don't have anything better to say that some garbage like you posted. I don't care about being polite in my response. You don't deserve politeness as it is something I use when speaking to someone I respect. YOU do NOT fall in that category. If you had any decency at all you would ask the webmaster to remove your post or post an apology to the soldier's family.

So, we lower the flag for every single person who dies in combat or as a result of combat-related injuries. I'm not talking about one person in particular. I'm talking about in general. Do we lower the flag for every single person who dies in combat or as a result of combat-related injuries? Do we lower the flag for every person who dies while in uniform even if her death is the result of an accident or natural causes? Do we consider the uniform to be the standard or can civilians also be honored?

Stop focusing on one person. Focus on the ISSUE.

Who deserves to have the flag of the ENTIRE United of States of America lowered in their honor?

I feel sorry for the folks who lost their family in war but that is not the issue. The issue is: has the "lowering of the flag" become lowered itself?

And to break a record of saying I agree with Kacey...not a good "issue" to discuss right now with hundreds of people mourning the loss of life. Does it make you stop and take notice any less, when the flag is lowered? It should make you stop and say a prayer for the person whose life was lost. When we lost our secretary of 3 of our rural schools, those schools flew their flags at half staff..as he was a national hero to us.

As far as focusing on the "person" not the issue. You were who brought up his circumstance to start with....

Removing this thread would be highly appropriate.

Half staff, Richard. I am NOT on a boat.

Are you sure? Your argument seems to be sinking.

More importantly than some ridged criteria as to who qualifies for half-staff status; I believe the reason why the flag is at half-staff ought to be clearly communicated by local media. This doesn't happen nearly enough. The news media is more concerned about which half-way house Lindsey Lohan is currently occupying. I don't think that we can honor our public servants too much. Especially, when they are local individuals.

In the last year here in Gillette, the Mayor and the County Commissioners asked that the flag be flown at half-staff throughout the City and County on two occasions when local citizens were killed in military service. Flags were not lowered in other communities in Wyoming in those instances. When Sen. Thomas died unexpectedly, the Wyoming Governor asked that flags throughout Wyoming be lowered.

I don't think that a ridged set of criteria is necessary. Besides all of that, honor and respect for our fellow man/woman really comes from the heart, not the position of the flag on the pole. Somehow, I suspect THAT is the real issue here.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr. (1/4/2011)]

It really wasn't that boring. After all there is a fire department thread AND a walmart thread in progress. If you're going to set off a grenade and then throw yourself on it just for something to do, save it for a time when it's really needed .

OK, I'm going to bite. As one of the 6 people who send out flag notifications to ALL federal facilities in the entire Western US (all states west of the Mississippi), I think I have access to the CORRECT answer.... (yes, this is part of my job working for DHS).


Presidential Proclamation:

The President is the only person who can order the American flag lowered.... with the below exceptions.
______________________________________________

State Governor Procalmations:

The Governor of a State, territory, or possession of the United States may order that the National flag be flown at half-staff in that State, territory, or possession in the event of the death of a member of the Armed Forces from that State, territory, or possession while serving on active duty.

State Proclamations to fly the Flag at half-staff will originate from the individual State Governor's Office

Governor Proclamation
Public Law 110-413
"Army Specialist Joseph P. Micks Federal Flag Code Amendment Act of 2007"

_____________________________________________

Heads of Governmental agencies:

The heads of the agencies of the Government may direct that the flag of the United States be flown at half-staff on buildings under their jurisdiction.

The Agency Heads will submit their request to the GSA Regional Administrator as assigned. Once the request is approved by the GSA Regional Administrator, the request will be sent to the FPS MegaCenter.

Agency Head Request
Proc. No. 3044 as amended by Proc. No. 3948 Paragraph 52

____________________________________

All notifications to federal facilites come from my office, are almost always requested by the Governor or President, and all fit into the criteria above.

Now, Amorette's statement seems to revolve around the fact that the flag seems to have been going up and down a lot lately. I counted 13 times we sent out notifications for 2010 to Montana, and 3 of those were in December.

ds, I would like to correct you on a few things.... first, you wrote:

"It is important to note that the Flag Code is a code, not a Law, it is intended to provide guidance and is not obligatory."

This is not true. First, the "code" is "Law", as it is the "Code of Federal Regulations", which are the Federal laws/statutes. Second, the lowering of the American flag is strictly outlined and may not be randomly lowered. If some Mayor wants to honor Billy Bob for his long service at the mechanic shop by lowering the flags, he can proclaim that. But it isn't legal, as the lowering of the American flag can only occur as outlined above.

(Here's the actual law, if you're so interested....)

4 U.S.C. § 7, as amended
http://uscode.house.gov/d...s/04C1.txt

(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day. As used in this subsection -
(1) the term "half-staff" means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;
(2) the term "executive or military department" means any agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5, United States Code; and
(3) the term "Member of Congress" means a Senator, a Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico.

Proc. No. 3044 as amended by Proc. No. 3948 Paragraph 52
http://uscode.house.gov/d...s/04C1.txt

PROC. NO. 3044. DISPLAY OF FLAG AT HALF-STAFF UPON DEATH OF CERTAIN OFFICIALS AND FORMER OFFICIALS Proc. No. 3044, Mar. 1, 1954, 19 F.R. 1235, as amended by Proc. No. 3948, Dec. 12, 1969, 34 F.R. 19699, provided:

WHEREAS it is appropriate that the flag of the United States of America be flown at half-staff on Federal buildings, grounds, and facilities upon the death of principal officials and former officials of the Government of the United States and the Governors of the States, Territories, and possessions of the United States as a mark of respect to their memory; and

WHEREAS it is desirable that rules be prescribed for the uniform observance of this mark of respect by all executive departments and agencies of the Government, and as a guide to the people of the Nation generally on such occasions:

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER, President of the United States of America and Commander in Chief of the armed forces of the United States, do hereby prescribe and proclaim the following rules with respect to the display of the flag of the United States of America at half-staff upon the death of the officials hereinafter designated:

1. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions for the period indicated upon the death of any of the following-designated officials or former officials of the United States:
(a) The President or a former President: for thirty days from the day of death. The flag shall also be flown at half-staff for such period at all United States embassies, legations, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.
(b) The Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives: for ten days from the day of death.
(c) An Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a member of the Cabinet, a former Vice President, the President pro tempore of the Senate, the Majority Leader of the Senate, the Minority Leader of the Senate, the Majority Leader of the House of Representatives, or the Minority Leader of the House of Representatives: from the day of death until interment.

2. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the metropolitan area of the District of Columbia on the day of death and on the following day upon the death of a United States Senator, Representative, Territorial Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and it shall also be flown at half-staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the State, Congressional District, Territory, or Commonwealth of such Senator, Representative, Delegate, or Commissioner, respectively, from the day of death until interment.

3. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all buildings and grounds of the Federal Government in a State, Territory, or possession of the United States upon the death of the Governor of such State, Territory, or possession from the day of death until interment.

4. In the event of the death of other officials, former officials, or foreign dignitaries, the flag of the United States shall be displayed at half-staff in accordance with such orders or instructions as may be issued by or at the direction of the President, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.

5. The heads of the several departments and agencies of the Government may direct that the flag of the United States be flown at half-staff on buildings, grounds, or naval vessels under their jurisdiction on occasions other than those specified herein which they consider proper, and that suitable military honors be rendered as appropriate.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States of America to be affixed.

DONE at the City of Washington this 1st day of March in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and fifty-four, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventy-eighth.

[seal] Dwight D. Eisenhower.


Public Law 110-413

ubl041.110">http://frwebgate.access.g...ubl041.110

Public Law 110-41 110th Congress
An Act

To amend title 4, United States Code, to authorize the Governor of a State, territory, or possession of the United States to order that the National flag be flown at half-staff in that State, territory, or possession in the event of the death of a member of the Armed Forces from that State, territory, or possession who dies while serving on active duty.
<<NOTE: June 29, 2007 - [H.R. 692]>>

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, <<NOTE: Army Specialist Joseph P. Micks Federal Flag Code Amendment Act of 2007. 4 USC 1 note.>>
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the ``Army Specialist Joseph P. Micks Federal Flag Code Amendment Act of 2007''.
SEC. 2. FINDING. <<NOTE: 4 USC 7 note.>>
Congress finds that members of the Armed Forces of the United States defend the freedom and security of the United States.
SEC. 3. PROCEDURE FOR NATIONAL FLAG TO BE FLOWN AT HALF-STAFF IN THE EVENT OF THE DEATH OF A MEMBER OF THE ARMED FORCES.

(a) Issuance of Proclamation.--Subsection (m) of section 7 of title 4, United States Code, is amended in the sixth sentence-
(1) by inserting ``or the death of a member of the Armed Forces from any State, territory, or possession who dies while serving on active duty'' after ``present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States''; and
(2) by inserting before the period the following: ``, and the same authority is provided to the Mayor of the District of Columbia with respect to present or former officials of the District of Columbia and members of the Armed Forces from the District of Columbia''.
(b) Federal Facility Consistency With Proclamation.--Such subsection is further amended by inserting after the sixth sentence the following new sentence: ``When the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, or the Mayor of the District of Columbia, issues a proclamation under the preceding sentence that the National flag be flown at half-staff in that State, territory, or possession or in the District of Columbia because of the death of a member of the Armed Forces, the National flag flown at any Federal installation or facility in the area covered by that
[[Page 121 STAT. 234]]
proclamation shall be flown at half-staff consistent with that proclamation.''.

Approved June 29, 2007.
LEGISLATIVE HISTORY--H.R. 692 (S. 720):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOUSE REPORTS: No. 110-139 (Comm. on the Judiciary).
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 153 (2007):

May 15, considered and passed House.
June 14, considered and passed Senate.

When the flag is lowered to half staff it is to honor a life. Never have I heard any single person refer to this as an ISSUE. The only one making it an ISSUE is you. I think you should stop now. You are making yourself look really bad. From the sounds of this thread a lot of people have lost any respect that they might have had for you.

Everyone's reaction to my fellow traveler Amorette's thread dismays me.

The concern is not that soldiers do not deserve to be honored. The concern is that if the flag is kept nearly constantly at half-staff, then lowering it to half-staff is no longer a special honor. In the old days, if you saw the flag at half-staff, you asked why, and the first person you asked would be able to tell you the name of the person being honored. Today, you see the flag at half-staff and most people have not even noticed that it is, because it is that way so often. Ask someone who died, and you get "some soldier, probably". It has become so common, no one cares anymore.

Then again, it does have the advantage of reminding me every time I pass a flagpole that we should get out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

I wonder what the punishment is for flying the flag at half mast when it is not legal to do so? I never heard of anybody getting in trouble for it.
I think I'll continue to do as I please with my flag. It would never be anything un-patriotic, you know.
I don't think it's fair to pick on AA about creating this thread. I find it interesting. I happen to be rather bored a lot this time of year, too. Anything that incites meaningful conversation is good.

Amorette,

You wrote, "Stop focusing on one person. Focus on the ISSUE."

You started this post with the man in Jordan that served in the Army that died and questioned if he had the right to have the flag lowered, since he died in the states.

The focus will REMAIN on this veteran unless a new post is started.

Thank you for mentioning the Viet Nam vets; they were treated beyond shameful. Perhaps the flag lowering started after than as part of realizing that; I don't know.

I would like to apologize for making it personal. It was a terrible, terrible mistake to bring an individual into this discussion and for that am I deeply sorry. Again, I am very sorry in the way I began this discussion and my mentioning one individual was inexcusable. I am going to start another thread on the general issue and, again, apologize for my inept way of starting this discussion.

I am very sorry for any unintended insult given to any individual.

That was considerate of you; will look forward to the new post!

If a flag was lowered every time a service member died during active duty I suspect that it would be at half-staff every day of the year.

Very nice apology, Amorette. Don't feel too bad. We still love you.

In this country we have the freedom of speech and how you fly the flag is a form of that right. If you want to fly it at half staff because your cousin has a cold that is your right,not very respectful, but your right just the same. In my humble opinion,the section of the flag code that makes the most sense is where it states that no other flag shall fly higher than the stars and stripes.

Yeah, I'd have a beer with you any time, Les. Wow, long time no see!

Do we lower the flag for every single person who dies in combat or as a result of combat-related injuries? Do we lower the flag for every person who dies while in uniform even if her death is the result of an accident or natural causes?




I say "Yes"...

Emotionalism is the death of the republic.