Is One Church As Good As Another?
Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
"Is One Church As Good As Another?"

There are many people who say that one church is as good as another. Allroads lead to heaven anyway, right? They say that people in all churches are going to be saved. One denominational church is actually as good as any other denomination.

However, no denomination is as good as the one church the Lord established for Himself. Jesus did not promise to build even one denomination. The word "denomination" means a part of the whole. The Lord's church is not a part of any thing else, but is a complete entity within itself. There were no denominations during the time of the apostles. The Lord did not establish any of the denominations, man did.

This is an unpopular doctrine with many people who belong to the many differing denominations, however, The Lord has only one church. The Bible says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:4-6). We might ask, is one God as good as another? No. Is one Lord as good as another? No. Is one body as good as another? No.

What is the Lord's one body then? Jesus is the "head over all things to the church, which is His body" (Ephesians 1: 22-23). We see that the Lord has only one body and that one spiritual body is His church, the church of Christ as demonstrated in the New Testament and exemplified in the apostles teachings and examples.

Jesus only promised to build His one church. He said to the Apostle Peter concerning his affirmation about Jesus being The Christ that, "Upon this rock (statement) I will build My church" (Matthew 16:18). "My" is a possessive pronoun and the word "church" is singular. Ephesians 5:23 says that Jesus "is the Saviour of the body", the church. Jesus has only promised to save those in His "one body", His one church. But, the sad and tragic thing is that with this being true all others in the many differing denominations are in danger of being lost unless they are a part Christ's church (body).

How does one get into the Lord's one church? People were told to "repent and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of sins" (Acts 2:38). Jesus says, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Once people are saved we see "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47). Here is a key factor where we see the Lord adds only the saved to His church. He makes no mistakes in adding any unsaved people to His church. We also see that in order to be saved so that we can be added to His church, we must be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins.

The vast majority of denominations say that in baptism one's sins are not washed away and baptism is not essential to salvation. According to the Lord, if one believes and practices this he cannot be saved. But those in the Lord's one church enjoy the remission of sins and the Lord has added them to His church. The Lord does not add the saved to a "church of their choice". And since we can infer that the Lord does not add the unsaved to His church, the unsaved have to join a denomination.

ALL denominations are the result of the many departures from the teaching of the Bible. Denominationalism is unscriptural since each denomination has a human founder, and not Christ. The Bible teaches that God is not the author of confusion. Denominationalism is plagued with division, conflicting creeds and doctrines, unscriptural worship and other practices, all of which are different from what God has authorized in the Bible and causes nothing but confusion. They are doing man's will and not God's will, thus God will not save them in their folly.

Each of the differing denominations cannot be a branch of the Lord's one true church since each one claims to be a distinct church within itself. Jesus says, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted" (Matthew 15:13). And "Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it" (Psalms 127:1). It does one no good to belong to a denominational church and worship there. He is wasting his time and will lose his soul. Jesus says, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7). Vain worship is useless.

The one church for which the Lord shed His blood and died is far superior to all the denominations founded by men. The Lord's church was "purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). Christ "loved the church and gave Himself for her" (Ephesians 5:25). The value of something that is purchased is equal to the price paid. The value of the Lord's church is equal to the value of Jesus Christ Himself. The value of the Lord is priceless, so the value of His church is also priceless. Just as counterfeit money is worthless, denominational churches are worthless counterfeit creations of men. One must be determined to search the scripture and find a congregation of the Lord's church and thus be added to the Body of Christ by being baptized. Therefore, "putting on Christ in baptism" (Galatians 3:26-27).

The church does not save us, but the Lord has placed only those who are saved in His one church. "Christ is head of the church; and He is the Saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23). If one expects to be saved, he must be in the Lord's one body, His church, and not in a man made denominational church. As we have seen that each of the denominational churches are as good as the others since they are all worthless and will only cause one to lose his soul in the eternal fires of Hell. But the Lord's one true church is far, far superior to any denominational church. There is no comparison.

Each person will be responsible for our own actions and weather or not we followed the Word of God or the doctrines of men. Also, the leadership of the various denomination throughout the world will one day have to stand before God in Judgment and answer for the lies they have given and why they led so many of the Lord's sheep astray. Paul said in Romans 10:14 "And how will they hear without a preacher?" Now that you have heard, are you willing to believe and obey the truth of God's Word? Your life does depend on it. God bless, have a great week, and keep working in the Word.

In His Service,
Jim lynch, Evangelist
Miles City Church of Christ
406-234-3775
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Posted by polar bear (+509) 11 years ago
I believe that it is the seeking that makes us savable. As long as we seek, we are saved.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago


grabs popcorn and a chair...




catholic church rocks! (Little "c")
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 11 years ago
I'm torn between the Perfectly Frank Church of Saturday Saints, St. Loony up the Cream Bun and Jam or the Kabutsa Earthists. So many choices. So little concern.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Amorette, be careful. I heard the Franks are obsessed with finding the perfect hotdog, the Loony's give out inflatable donut seat cushions, but to get one is a pain in the butt, and the Kabutsas have good whole foods, but don't believe in toilet paper...

But keep lookin, girl! You'll find somethin'
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 11 years ago
Is One Church As Good As Another?


No ask any Christian His/Hers is the only way.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Is One Church as good as another? NO. In Miles City, the best church is undoubtedly United Christian Church. And don't try to tell me otherwise.

Is One Religion As Good As Another? YES. In fact, they're all pretty much indistinguishable from one another in the big picture. It's the little details that make one different from another - and usually not for the better.
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Posted by Elizabeth Emilsson (+797) 11 years ago
Oh Steve, thanks for the testimonial. Yes the United Christian Church is the best church in Miles City. I grew up in more fundamentalist churches, but never felt at home until I joined the United Christian Church. What makes it better? It includes all into the fellowship. Everyone is welcome to participate just as they are.
For a small congregation, we have established ourselves in community service. We take seriously the lessons of James, in that faith without works is dead faith. By the way, we really miss you Steve.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
I miss you, too, Betty. Keep the good workS! And thanks again for the wonderful good-bye party. Vive la difference!
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Posted by RA (+648) 11 years ago
I have a friend that had some 'sage' advice on the subject....."You know, most people settle for a church/religion that pleases them... very few search and settle for the church/religion that pleases God."
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Well put RA...
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
The next time anyone establishes a direct link to God, I hope they will conference me in so I can ask Him/Her/It what would please Him/Her/It with respect to religion, worship and human behavior. But I pray the Holier than Thou crowd that claims so loudly to know what God does and doesn't like is ready for a not-so-pleasant surprise --- cuz I'm betting they won't like His/Her/Its answer.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Matthew 22:37-40
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Uh, direct. As in, one-to-one mano-y-mana tete-a-tete.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Ooops. Make that one-to-0ne, mano-y-Mano, tete-a-Tete. I didn't mean to seem disrespectful.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
You have that connection already. You have to establish it on your own.

My reference was to a direct communication that's already been sent.
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17321) 11 years ago
After seeing the Blues Brothers movie, I wish I could have gone to the church where James Brown was the preacher and Aretha Franklin was the choir director.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
In partial rebuttal to Jim I offer this copy and paste due to it's ability to be more succinct than I:

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, `Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.`"

This verse is often used to say that baptism is part of salvation, but we know from other scriptures that it is not, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, "repent and be baptized."

Also, please notice that there is no mention of faith in Acts 2:38. If this verse is a description of what is necessary for salvation, then why is faith not mentioned? Simply saying it is implied isn't good enough. Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation, but for covenant obedience, which is why the next verse says that the promise is for their children as well.

1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

This is the only verse that says that baptism saves, but the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "Baptism corresponds to what?" The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you," (NASB).

Some think that the baptism corresponds to the Ark because it was the Ark that saved them, not the floodwaters. This is a possibility, but one of the problems is that this interpretation does not seem to stand grammatically since the antecedent of Baptism is most probably in reference to the water, not the Ark.

But, water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that it is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life with Christ -- in the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, known as entering into the new way. Also, Peter says that the baptism is an appeal of a good conscience before God. Notice that this is dealing with faith. It seems that Peter is defining real baptism as the act of faith.

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.

Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die -- unless, of course, it is a figurative usage. And that is what it is here. The figure of baptism represents the reality of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is a covenant sign for us. Remember, a covenant sign represents the covenant. The covenant sign of baptism represents the covenant of grace which is that covenant between God and the Christian where we receive the grace of God through the person of Christ by means of his sacrifice.

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.

Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.

Conclusion
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?


Jim knows the spirit in which I offer my rebuttal. Iron sharpens Iron.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
You have that connection already. You have to establish it on your own.


You're right. I do and I have. Problem is, even if God tells you and me the same thing, we can understand it differently. And a book that has been handed down from generation to generation and passed around from culture to culture - or even a single passage from that Book - is bound to be interpreted in an infinite number of ways. So, who's to say whose version is right and whose is wrong?

Again, when you have that direct connection with God/Allah/Yaweh/The Big Pard'ner, link me in.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
You got your own.

I don't share.
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 11 years ago
As an Episcopalian, I am deeply grateful to Henry VIII.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
I don't blame you, CS. If I had a direct link to the Big Kahuna, I wouldn't share it either.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
Is one church as good as another?


As long as the pesky details and mineutia of doctrine don't matter, and in most places they don't, then yes, one is as good as another. They are mostly poorly run scocial clubs. The Cheers Bar is a better church than most churches.
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
Sounds as though many of you "missed" the point...The question is obviously rhetorical because there is only "one" church (assembly) that is acceptable to God. Christ's body, which He purchased with His own Blood. It is up to each individual to investigate and be sure when we assemble with the saints that we are practicing "true" worship and when we live our lives we are living in a way that expresses "true and undefiled religion. James 1:27

Chuck, I do know the spirit of you rebuttal and appreciate it as well. You and I have discussed this. I do disagree when you say Baptism is not needed for salvation. 1 Peter 3:18-21 clearly explains "baptism now saves you". Peter is illustrating from Noah and how the water saved his family when it cleansed the earth from the sin and he says, "like that" baptism now saves you.

On another related note: baptism is not a work it is an obedience to a command which is a difference. When one obeys a command given in scripture wherein lies the "work". James and Paul both give us the definitions of works from both sides of the issue, (i.e. Romans, James).

More later when time allows

Have a great day folks...Jim
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
I hope you have a great day, too, Jim. I admire you for your commitment to God, your deep faith, and the good things you do every day in the name of and for the glory of the Lord.

We differ in how we approach the Bible. You find strength in literal interpretations of its passages and texts. That's fine. But that doesn't work for me. Taking every Word of the Bible as Holy Writ weakens it for me because I can't resolve the inconsistencies within it. I love certain passages, but there are some passages that, if taken literally, leave me absolutely stone cold - especially in the Old Testament.

So, I find succor in the Bible by using it as a source of inspiration and guidance. I get excited when deeper meanings of the Words emerge - meanings that transcend time and place and other dimensions. It's clear from your previous writings that you don't think that's fine. All I can say to that is that, just as CS pointed out earlier, we all have to establish our own relationship with God - and when I talk to God, I get the message that I'm doing just fine. Words such as yours don't hold much sway with me personally because in a pinch, I have to go with God tells me directly. I recognize God's authority over the opinion of any man - and opinions are all any man has when it comes to religion.

Those who do find comfort and strength in literal interpretations are lucky to have a guide like you to help them on their way. I just have to draw the line when Biblical Literalists claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong - and then assert that anyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do is doomed to hell. I find that position arrogant and absurd and, ironically, very UN-Christian!

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/6/2010)]
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Steve,

I totally agree with the spirit of what you say. I don't push any minutiae onto folks with regards to Christianity, which shouldn't be religious, because that's not what it's about. It's about relationship with God. Who am I to say anything about how you RELATE to God?

That being said, the only thing I do know is UNIVERSAL across the board when it comes to Bible based Christianity is if you don't believe Christ died, was buried, and was resurrected for your restoration to relationship with God (aka salvation) and repent(turn from sin) YOU condemn YOURSELF to an eternity separated from God and spend eternity in hell (hell being debateable as to if it's metaphorical or literal I believe the bible is clear it's a literal place, but either way it's hell and I want no part of it). It's not me doing it. It's not God doing it. It's each individual's choice. God just respects YOUR choice. He's done his part. It's up to you now.

This is what confuses me to no end how people say "Christians" are telling them they are gonna "burn in hell" if "WE" don't do it "THEIR" way. That's just pure BS! (with few exceptions. I know idiots abound in all things.) Believe. Just believe. And let God lead you from there. He'll have you do what he wants you to do if you're submissive to his leading. He's not pushy. He's not condemning. But he is persistent. I'm not him, nor is Jim, or anyone else.

We share what we know BECAUSE WE WANT TO HELP OTHER INDIVIDUALS THE WAY GOD HAS HELPED US. Not to be "holier than thou" or "know-it-alls". I can't speak for Jim, but I've been forgiven so much more than anyone except God and I will ever know. I'm grateful for his grace and want others to experience the same. I can't imagine anyone would find fault with the intention though I may flub the delivery from time to time.

... but that's just me. Loved, but still flawed.
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+763) 11 years ago
I like the church where they filmed part of "Tommy".
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Posted by Steve Sullivan (+1334) 11 years ago
So then are you implying that the Muslims and the folks that follow the Buddha are screwed then?
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Posted by Ben Hughes (+21) 11 years ago
I am always amused when someone loudly and proudly crows "I AM A CHRISTIAN!"

As opposed to being Jewish? As opposed to being a Muslim? As opposed to being a Buddhist?
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
And what about pre-Columbian Native Americans or people in Africa, Asia. Borneo, (you get the picture) who have never seen a Christian - let alone had a religious discussion with one. They never even had the 'opportunity' to accept Christ as their one and only Lord and Savior, yet they are denied the blessing of eternal afterlife? Or maybe even banished to hell according to some true believers.

I can't buy that. I accept Christ as the Son of God, but I believe we are ALL children of God - and I believe that was Christ's main message. The idea that being baptized is "the only way to God" has been overemphasized and abused by the minions of church heirarchies ever since. They set themselves up as God's chosen representatives on Earth, and then live in palaces and eat off gold and silver platters - which is exactly the opposite of how Christ lived and what he stood for through example and his ultimate sacrifice.

I cannot imagine that the God who created the universe and a Lord who sacrificed his life at the age of 33 could possibly be concerned with every little thing that runs through the minds of men - and the idea that God would answer the prayer of a football team to win the big game while ignoring the plight of millions of starving children is laughable. The God in my conception offers us strength and guidance and shows us how to be compassionate with ourselves and especially with others. To God, there isn't a "right side" when it comes to football games and wars.

As for heaven and hell, my belief was best summed up in a conversation between two priests in a British comedy (I can't recall the name of it at the moment) that went something like this:


A young priest is struggling with how to tell a young boy that his dying grandfather is about to go to hell because he refused baptism and last rites. He consults the older priest.

"NO problem," says the older man. "You don't have to tell the boy any such thing because his grandfather isn't going to go to hell."

"But Father," protests the younger priest. "How can that be? Don't you believe in Hell?"

"Of course I do," says the older priest. "I just don't believe that my God would ever send someone there."



In other words, stop insulting God by insisting that God is as petty as us mere human beings! God may have made us in his/her/its image, but he/she/it certainly did not make us anywhere near as Great.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/6/2010)]
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Posted by Hal Neumann (+9919) 11 years ago
Well said Steve.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Thanks Hal.

And CS, I appreciate and believe what you are saying. I'm sure your motivations, just like Jim Lynch's, are good and well intentioned. But it is such a small step from trying to save a soul to tormenting a soul. God save me from good intentions!

If more evangelical Christians religiously followed Christ's admonition to Judge Not, then I would be far less concerned. But life abounds with examples of Christian judgment run amok and is short on those where compassion ruled triumphant. So I am very cautious and even skeptical about the evangelical approach to spreading Christianity.

I much prefer Christ's approach: Simply lead by example and the rest will take care of itself.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 11 years ago
Maybe the Mormons have it right. Just have someone baptized posthumously and give him the chance to choose.
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Posted by Cheryl Pieters (+474) 11 years ago
It doesn't matter what Religion or Denomination or Church we belong to, according to OTHER Religions and Denominations we are all going to Hell:

"As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some (Most) of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion (or Denomination), then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell."



********************************************************

Taken From:

Is hell exothermic or endothermic?

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question is May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of the souls and volume needs to stay constant.

Two options exist:

If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster then the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...
Thus hell is exothermic.

The student, Tim Graham, got the only A in the class.
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Posted by Kelly (+2706) 11 years ago
Good story, but it is false.

http://www.snopes.com/col...m/hell.asp
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 11 years ago
Kelly. Snopes is a tool of the evil left.
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Posted by Cheryl Pieters (+474) 11 years ago
I don't really care if it is false, as that story wasn't really the whole point of my post (just thought some of you might enjoy it, )
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Well, somebody had to write it. Who cares if it was in a class or just for fun. The point ROCKS!
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Posted by korky II (+608) 11 years ago
No where in the Bible does it mention religion or denomionation, therefore it does not make any difference what church you belong to as long as they believe and teach that Jesus is the Messiah. What does matter is each person's personal relationshp with Jesus. If you believe in Him and follow his teachings and live your life accordingly, That is your salvation.
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
Well....now that I have found some time to reply to the wonderful discussion being engaged in Please allow me to systematically do so in the order in which they appear.

I do so much appreciate every comment and thought on the subjects I bring to the table and look forward to learning as we go along.

Steve,
I appreciate your comment on my commitment to God, faith, and the ongoing work I am blessed to be involved in. However, please be assured that I do not in any way seek to glorify myself or impose my own opinions on you or any one else. I have been blessed to study the Bible for more than 25 years now and daily search for more truths that I am certain have alluded me. In no way am I "the" expert when it comes to the knowledge of God.

That being said, let me also assure you that I am not a literalist in the since that I believe every word in the Bible is to be taken as such. The basic heurmenutical application world not allow this to be since much of the Bible is written in poetic and apocalyptic language which would not allow the symbolism to be taken as literal. Many would disagree with me when I say the book of Revelation is a history book and has already been fulfilled (oh boy, should I edit that one?). One must be very careful in applying the word in a literal since, however, there is much within scripture that requires just that. Many commands, examples, and inferences are without question when understood in the context and spirit in which they are written.

As for the Old Testament we must understand that we no longer live under the tutor of such as Jesus fulfilled the Old Law in His death on the cross and brought to us a covenant that is now based on faith in Him and not in the letter of the law. Does that mean we no longer have law? No, as we now live under the law of Christ and never in the history of man have we not had some form of law to abide by.

I am glad the Bible is found to be a source of inspiration and comfort for you as I know my life would be in much disarray without its guidance. I also understand that one must go with what God tells us, however, we must confirm our beliefs with the truth of scripture. It is not important what I believe, you believe or what anyone else would tell us it truth, God is the only one who has the right to establish truth because He is Truth and. Jesus said in John 14:7 that "I am the way, the truth , and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me". This makes it clear to me that I have no other option but to follow Christ or choose to be condemned in the end.

I would think many could find better guidance than myself but do appreciate once again the comment. I am only a simple man from a humble past trying to make sense of how "life" works. However, by the grace of God I would not have the wisdom to think for myself but would be as a sheep being lead to the slaughter. It is only through many unforeseen events in my life that God has brought me to the place where I am now. You know me and many others and how my only goal is to serve God and present His truth so that others can have the assurance of salvation that I now enjoy.

Thank you Steve for having the courage to speak you point with boldness and your willingness to have an open discussion.

Chuck my friend,
I totally agree with you that it all comes down to our relationship with God. You also know I am not one to "push" my belief on others but only to present my case for what I believe and allow intelligent and reasonable thinking people to weigh the evidence and choose for themselves. I am in no way the author of truth but only see myself as a messenger of God to His truth.

Again, I totally agree that it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that is the key to everything. The Bible is very clear on this point and without it; there is no hope of salvation.

One comment you make which disturbs me though:

"This is what confuses me to no end how people say "Christians" are telling them they are gonna "burn in hell" if "WE" don't do it "THEIR" way. That's just pure BS! (with few exceptions. I know idiots abound in all things.) Believe. Just believe. And let God lead you from there. He will have you do what he wants you to do if you are submissive to his leading. He's not pushy. He's not condemning. But he is persistent. I'm not him, nor is Jim, or anyone else."

The Bible clearly points out that there is ONLY one "way". That is the way of Christ. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23 that; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do know one thing. If I know the Bible teaches the truth about any subject, especially how one is to be justified before God, and I do not teach it to others then I will be held accountable to God for not at least trying to snatch others from the fire of hell. Call me a Bible thumper or whatever one wants but I believe it is our obligation as a Christian to fulfill the command to "go into all the word and preach the Gospel to every creature, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that does not believe shall be condemned." Mark 16:15-16. The Bible also teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 16:16...and how will they hear without a preacher.

You are correct that God will in no way push Himself on you and He is not condemning of us (yet) and He is patient hoping all would come to repentance. I am not God but it does not take any more than a common understanding of reason and exegetical studies to see clearly what the Bible teaches and how God expects certain things of us. If we obey He is glorified, if we choose not to obey we are condemned. Simply put.


"We share what we know BECAUSE WE WANT TO HELP OTHER INDIVIDUALS THE WAY GOD HAS HELPED US. Not to be "holier than thou" or "know-it-alls"."


Chuck, I could not have said it any better and I know those who know you and I personally know it to be truth as well...

I too am grateful God has spared me to be able to serve His to this day. I am an example of what God can do in ones life if we would just get "self" out of the picture and let Him work.


Well, let me say this knowing the critics will pounce, but nonetheless...

Let's take it logically Steve S and Ben;

If the Bible clearly teaches, and it does, that Jesus is the ONLY way to God and that if one is to know God we must know Him. In addition, if the Bible teaches clearly, and it does, that the only way to obtain salvation is through Christ. And, if the Bible clearly teaches, and it does, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And if the Bible clearly teaches, and it does, that it is only by the blood of Jesus that our sins are washed away.

Then what must one infer from those teachings? One can only infer that one must be a Christian (follower of Christ) because it is only through Jesus Christ that salvation is obtained. Therefore, anyone who follows any other teaching will be condemned by God on the day they stand before Him in judgment. Yes, I said it, anyone!

So if one does not follow Christ and His commands then one will be lost. The only way to stand justified before God is to have the grace and mercy that Jesus has provided. I know this does not sound like a very popular thing to say and some would call me judgmental or even legalistic but we must understand that God has done His part and expects us to comply with His plan. If we do not then we will suffer the consequences accordingly. Simple as that.

Steve,
God will be the one who will judge as to our hearts and if we understood His plan. It is not for us to say who is truly a part of Him. Only He knows for sure who is truly obedient. Jesus said that there would be wheat and tares that would grow together, even in His church, but to allow them to grow until harvest time and the reapers will sort them in the time of the harvest.

God may not be too concerned with the minor details of life but He is concerned with the choices we make that alienates us from Him. And, BTW, He will not send anyone to hell, those who find themselves in hell will be there because of the choices they made and for no other reason. Salvation has come to all who are willing to believe and obey the commands of Jesus Christ.

Nice humorous story Cheryl...everyone will know for sure when we stand before the throne of God and He deliver those who were disobedient to that place of torment where they will be separated from God. It is debatable as to what exactly that will be but I do not care to find out and pray daily that God will spare me the reality of it.

Have a wonderful week folks and once again I am sorry I did not keep up with this one better as I was out of town for three days and everything else piled up...

God Bless and keep working in the Word, Jim
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago
It's alright. I will be condemned by God. You will be condemned by Allah. No one will feel left out.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
So the take away message here is that Lutherans are in big trouble.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Actually Richard, I think the message is that if you're not a Baptist, you're pretty much cooked. So the Lutherans will have lots of company.

On the bright side, we'll have one Helluva church softball league down there.

[This message has been edited by Steve Craddock (11/7/2010)]
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
On the bright side, we'll have one Helluva church softball league down there.


And Beer!

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (11/7/2010)]
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Yes. Definitely beer. You and Gunnar can be co-captains of the Brewers!
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 11 years ago
Is Westboro Baptist Church as good as another
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
Wrong thread, Lorin. That question belongs in the "Is One Inbred Family Cult Led by a Procreatin' Fool As Good As Another?" thread - n'est ce pas?
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 11 years ago
I'm confused. Is Mr. Lynch suggesting one particular denomination of Christian church or just "Christian" in general?
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Jim,

Me thinks you missunderstood part of my post. I didn't mean "all roads lead to Heaven". I meant "believe in Christ's death, burial and resurrectiona and God will lead you from there". It's all about receptiveness (submission) and spiritual gifts. We all have 'em. Yours seems to be evangelism. I'm still trying to figure mine out.

But as for all people belief is non-negotiable. Spiritual gifts and their use is an individual thing. DEVELOPMENT of the relationship is an individual thing. It's not a 12 step, timeline guided program is my point. Access (The Way, the Truth, and the Light) is universal (It's available to ANYONE). The Race is individual and as unique as we can fathom.... Therefore obedience is also part of that "problem". I honestly think obedience is non-existent without submission and submission is non-existent without BELIEF.

Which leads us to the other subjects brought up in this thread.

As far as the tribes and peoples Steve mentioned, I have to fall back to the bible on this one. ASSUMING the bible is truthful about Christ, then the bible should be truthful about EVERYTHING. If you don't agree with that acceptance and understanding of everything else is hard as hell to get your mind around. All those people in Pre-Columbian America, or anywhere else yesterday, today, or tomorrow are DESCENDENTS of Noah. Their families KNEW of God and his relationship with man. IF they decided to push God our of their lives and cultures leaving their peoples clueless, it's not God's fault. It's man's fault. A dead man. But he's still accessible to ANY man/woman and he will search his heart and lead him to the truth of Christ. Abraham was alive way before Christ yet, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)

Which leads us to the other subjects brought up in this thread.

As far as the tribes and peoples Steve mentioned, I have to fall back to the bible on this one. ASSUMING the bible is truthful about Christ, then the bible should be truthful about EVERRYTHING. If you don't agree with that then acceptance and understanding of everything else is hard as hell to get your mind around. All those people in Pre-Columbian America, or anywhere else yesterday, today, or tomorrow are DESCENDENTS of Noah. Their families KNEW of God and his relationship with man. IF they decided to push God our of their lives and cultures leaving their peoples clueless, it's not God's fault. It's man's fault. A dead man.

I pay for the things my mother did. (raised by a single parent) She didn't know a lot of things about how the world worked. She did a lot of things that weren't "right". She set bad examples in a lot of ways even though she loved me the best way she thought she could. Honestly a lot of what she did was self-serving and I am still "purging" those behaviors from my own to prevent my kids from having the same struggles. That's not God's fault. It's hers. And mine. She had a decision to make and she did. I had the choice as to believe/follow in her footsteps or not. I choose not most of the time.

Whether you buy it or not doesn't mean it's not true and I'll concede maybe it's not. Most of the things that God is blamed for is man's fault. But he's an easy scapegoat because we don't "see" him and he doesn't necessarily "exist". So nobody loses face for all the evil they perpetrate and nobody has to be confrontational by blaming someone else instead of God. People are weak, scared and want an easy way out. Christianity, when done the way the Bible, AND Christ says it's supposed to be done is NOT the easy way out.

Korky,

The bible doesn't mention denominations, but various "denominations" teach additional things beyond the bible. Most of those things are unnecessary at best, heretical at worst. Denomination, in my opinion, only matters in that sense. When I mentioned catholic church in one of my first responses to this thread it was un-capitalized for a reason. When it's not it means "universal". In other words, it's for everyone who wants to join. Not Catholic, as in Roman Catholic.

Mary,

God doesn't condemn. You choose condemnation over salvation. He respects YOUR decision. I addressed this earlier.

Amorette,

Yes, Jim is insinuating the "Church of Christ" as in the catholic church that was established BY CHRIST is the ONLY church that's worth belonging too. Not a building. Not a denomination. If it's more than that, it's selfserving, not God serving. And no, I don't go to Jim's church nor am I part of any denomination.
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2732) 11 years ago
God bless you CS, and peace be with you.

And good luck raising those kids! I tip my hat to parents everywhere - especially single parents trying to make ends meet on one income while meeting everyone else's needs. How they do it is a daily miracle. I'm sure anyone who has tried it would agree.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Steve,

Take care, Brother. Next time you're in town, give us a ring. No such thing as too many friends.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
Yes, Jim is insinuating the "Church of Christ" as in the catholic church that was established BY CHRIST is the ONLY church that's worth belonging too. Not a building. Not a denomination. If it's more than that, it's selfserving, not God serving.


It's amusing to watch people ignore 2000 years of church history as though the church started when they were born. And actually, the NT does talk about "denominations" in 2 Tim 4:3.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (11/9/2010)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 11 years ago
I'm still confused.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Richard,

That clearly says doctrine not denomination. Though some denominations do have doctrinal issues they are not one in the same.

Amorette,

Can you try to express your confusion one more time. Maybe we can better address your question if you dumb it down for us.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
Denominations form because sinful man is intolerant of sound doctrine (i.e. you're saved by baptism, not some "altar call" experience ), wants to have his ears tickled on a particular point of emphasis, and finds preachers, teachers, or evangelists that will fill that "need". So the passage cited is very much about denominations.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 11 years ago
I think Amorette's question is "who gives a poop?"

If God does, then He's incredibly petty for something that supposedly brought 13 Billion light years of real estate into existence, and one has to wonder if such a creature is really deserving of our time and attention.

Now, if God doesn't particularly care about the proper interpretation of the filioque clause, to say nothing over the manner in which water is applied to you during baptism, then the only people concerned about such things are, well, people - and given that people will argue about things for which there exists empirical evidence, it's pretty much guaranteed that they will argue endlessly over intangibles such as metaphysics.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 11 years ago
ASSUMING the bible is truthful about Christ, then the bible should be truthful about EVERYTHING.


This is what gets me. It ignores the internal conflicts in the bible itself. How can all four books describing Jesus's birth be correct when they conflict with each other?

[This message has been edited by Wendy Wilson (11/9/2010)]
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Wendy,


IF there were any true internal conflicts in the Bible this thing would have unraveled a LONG time ago. I would suggest you dig a lil' deeper and you'll find there is none.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 11 years ago
Correct me if I'm wrong Wendy, but wouldn't that be a correct usage of the term "begging the question"?
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Denominations can also form due to someone teaching unsound doctrine... ie claiming to have an intermediary with God other than Christ.

I agree people go "church shopping" to suit their wants and desires instead of seeking out what their spirit needs. They substitute religion and ritual for relationship. They seek the company and approval of man, instead of God. It's easier to find people who are willing to make up their own rules and campaign for them and tell you what to do than it is to find someone who you bring a spiritual problem to and the first thing they ask is, "Have you prayed about it?"...

People are quick to committee, or seek counsel of men to keep from having to make a decision on their own and be responsible for their actions, or to have their actions justified by consensus. If you pray to God about something and have waited on guidance, received it, and acted on it, who's to argue with your actions?

meh....
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago
"IF there were any true internal conflicts in the Bible this thing would have unraveled a LONG time ago. I would suggest you dig a lil' deeper and you'll find there is none."

That's an easy argument to make when literacy rates before the 1700s were less than 50% and since the 1700s people like John Mill have been unraveling the text. It's hard to question text you can't read.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
If you can't find someone in 1700 years when the population went from 200 million at the time of christ (according to TIME magazine) and at the end of the 18th century was estimated at approximately 1 billion {according to wikipedia} to find an error to derail Christianity (half of which would be 400 million people that were "literate") or the 5 billion plus that have come into existence since then, I think christianity is on solid ground.


so what else you got?

[This message has been edited by CS Hunt (11/9/2010)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 11 years ago
Correct me if I'm wrong Wendy, but wouldn't that be a correct usage of the term "begging the question"?


Bingo.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago
"I think christianity is on solid ground."

You keep on thinking that while it all unravels around you.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 11 years ago
Lets list some errors that derail Christianity.

I'll go with:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Of course CS probably agrees with the bible, making him/her completely procreateing retarded.
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Posted by Tracy Walters (+302) 11 years ago
No ask any Christian His/Hers is the only way.


Ask me.

No...my church isn't the only way. However, I believe that the only way to God is through accepting Jesus. Many churches believe this to be true...many dispute the fine details of doctrine, some like to kneel and pray, some stand and sing, others do good works.

Some folks like church to be solemn and filled with ritual, some like to be joyful, happy and celebrate. As long as they believe in Jesus, and ask for forgiveness, accept his gift, and live for God, they'll go to Heaven.

That doesn't mean they'll be perfect, or right, or better than anyone else. Unfortunately, those who don't believe want to ridicule and belittle anyone who does believe.

It's interesting that it's okay for a non-believer to call a believer, stupid, ignorant, hypocritical, and a myriad of other names, but act completely surprised when those other human beings become upset....as if they are supposed to be without blemish, when no one, not even God, said they should be. It's the non-believers who labeled Christians as being supposedly 'perfect.'

...and now I'll get abuse for actually believing in God and Jesus, and having the effrontery to actuall say so.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
Well said, Tracy.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago
"Unfortunately, those who don't believe want to ridicule and belittle anyone who does believe."

Tracy, probably because they've had it up to here with this,

"If I know the Bible teaches the truth about any subject, especially how one is to be justified before God, and I do not teach it to others then I will be held accountable to God for not at least trying to snatch others from the fire of hell."
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 11 years ago
For the most part, this thread has been mostly respectful of "believers", yet Tracy still feels the need to nail himself to the cross of suffering in the face of... what, precisely? Wendy's withering scorn? Buck's contention that not all parts of the Bible are applicable in modern society? My own suspicion that God's a Universalist?

No one makes fun of believers for being believers, they ridicule them because a lot of them are douchebags who slap God on whatever politically reactive crap they've decided is an "eternal principal" this week. Or perhaps I missed the verses where God proclaims His unwavering support for a minimal tax rate and and open carry legislation.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 11 years ago
I think God's probably a Universalist, too. Universalists are cool with talking smack, at least at this church. I happen to be an ordained minister, wasn't that difficult. Been spreading the word for quite a while. CHURCH.
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago
"After long study and experience, I have come to the conclusion that [1] all religions are true; [2] all religions have some error in them; [3] all religions are almost as dear to me as my own Hinduism, in as much as all human beings should be as dear to one as one's own close relatives. My own veneration for other faiths is the same as that for my own faith; therefore no thought of conversion is possible."

(M. K. Gandhi, All Men Are Brothers: Life and Thoughts of Mahatma Gandhi as told in his own words, Paris, UNESCO 1958, p 60.)
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
Amorette,
No I am not suggesting any particular denomination. On the contrary I am imploring just the oposite. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where denominationalism is condoned or taught. One must find a group of Christians that follow Christ and His teachings and assemble with them.

Gotcha Mr Hunt...

sorry if I misunderstood any part of your intent.

Also allow me to correct you on the statement that I am talking about the catholic church, as you said before. I am NOT talking about the catholic church as it was established by man many years after the establishment of the Lord's Church we read about in scripture. The one true church (assembly) that follows Jesus.

2 Tim 4:3 - is describing how those who will not listen to the sound teachings of the Bible will turn to there own idealistic belifes and to those false teachers who will tell them what they want to hear instead of telling them what they need to hear. This is exactly how den\omination get their start...EGO.

Have a greast evening folks...off to Bible class, Jim
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 11 years ago
I can't wait to hear what you learned about this week!
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 11 years ago
Funniest comment of this thread, Bob....LOL
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Posted by Tracy Walters (+302) 11 years ago
Well said, Tracy.


Thank you, Richard!

Tracy still feels the need to nail himself to the cross of suffering in the face of...


Bridgier...I didn't 'nail myself to the cross of suffering' I just stated what happens so often on this site and others when someone who is a Christian states their belief in something. Belief in God is pervasive in one's life, it's not hard to see someone applying it to political situations as well as other aspects of their life.

As was said in another thread, what you believe constitutes civility depends on where you stand on the issue.
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Posted by Russell Bonine (+246) 11 years ago
I can't wait to hear what you learned about this week!



We can only hope it is how to make the proper distinction between law and gospel!

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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 11 years ago
I just stated what happens so often on this site and others when someone who is a Christian states their belief in something.

It hadn't happened yet, so you thought a pre-emptive crucifixion was necessary, just in case it happened?
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Posted by Mary B. (+201) 11 years ago


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Posted by Tracy Walters (+302) 11 years ago
It hadn't happened yet, so you thought a pre-emptive crucifixion was necessary, just in case it happened?


Interesting that you thought that. The only Crucifixion that I care about already happened.

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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
"I can't wait to hear what you learned about this week!"

"Tis not what we learn in life that is of most importance as it is how we apply the knowledge we recieve" ...JL

...but I am sure this is not an original thought as I don't have any, probably read it somewhere...lol.

[This message has been edited by James Lynch (11/13/2010)]
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 11 years ago
I before E except after C.....
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
thanks howdy...
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Posted by howdy (+4943) 11 years ago
Anytime <tips.hat>
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Posted by MilesCity.com Webmaster (+10001) 11 years ago
Except for words like neighbor.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
...and Budweiser.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 11 years ago
and weird.
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Posted by CS Hunt (+328) 11 years ago
Jim,

catholic with a little "c" means universal...as in applies to everyone who chooses to take part via Christ's invitation.

vs


Catholic with a big "c" means Roman Catholic Church as in applies to everyone who chooses to take part via the Roman Catholic Church catechism, baptism, etc.

amazing how capitalization can make such a HUGE difference.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9194) 11 years ago
http://www.kpho.com/news/...etail.html

This Church is DEFINITELY not as good as another.
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Posted by Tracy Walters (+302) 11 years ago
There have been thousands of domed Churches over history, there are several in Rome and France

Isn't the one in Helena domed? I may be incorrect about that...anyway:

http://www.flickr.com/pho...315571790/

Or isn't it the dome you are speaking of?
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
"amazing how capitalization can make such a HUGE difference."

Chuck,
Sorry, didn't pick up on that before but you are correct in explaining and right in how it does make a difference... but I too wonder why. AAAHHH...the joy of the english dialect...lol.

Have a great day and hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving.

Lets do coffee again sometime when you get a break.

Jim
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Posted by Robert L. Reyff (+34) 11 years ago
John 3:3-15
I Cor 15:20-28
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Posted by Robert L. Reyff (+34) 11 years ago
There is only one problem involved with your thinking. Only one of the World's religions, if you want to call it that, can save your spirit and usher you into the next phase of life!
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 11 years ago
Dumbass

Hell should be a real treat if I don't have to hear any of this poop

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (11/27/2010)]
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Posted by James Lynch (+206) 11 years ago
Robert,
Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

That narrows it down does it not?

Buck,
You can always turn off the computer or not read the articles if it disturbs you that much. Then again, if it disturbs you that much then maybe you need to do something to aleviate the unrest in your soul...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4461) 11 years ago
You can always turn off the computer or not read the articles if it disturbs you that much.


If you're so disturbed by homosexuals... Oh, I bet you can't.
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Posted by polar bear (+509) 11 years ago
James, you cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible. That is how cults operate. The main guy says he is God and when questioned he says God told him that so you have to believe it.

First you have to prove the Bible factually true, without using the Bible at all. Then it can be considered a source.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 11 years ago
First you have to prove the Bible factually true, without using the Bible at all. Then it can be considered a source.


Hmmm... let's think about this.

First you have to prove the Polar Bear is factually true, without using the Polar Bear at all. Then it can be considered a source.
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Posted by Bruce Helland (+586) 11 years ago
And the wheels go 'round and 'round........
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Posted by Robert L. Reyff (+34) 11 years ago
Coming soon: Wellspring Life Coaching, LLC
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 11 years ago
Stop advertising in the discussion forums, sir.
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Posted by BD (+330) 10 years ago
No, according to Jesus even his mother had to change faith from a Jew to a Christian, She followed the teaching of the Bible, nothing more, what Jesus said and did is the right church. You have to find one that teaches what the Bible says and does, not a social gathering for everyone.
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