Is it time for a death penalty discussion?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
As a resident of the arguably most conservative state in the union I find this a conflict with the ruling parties conservative family values. Comments?


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_...ost_viewed
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
As a resident of the arguably most conservative state in the union I find this a conflict with the ruling parties conservative family values.


I don't think Utah is the most conservative state in the union. That honor goes to Idaho, Wyoming, and then Utah. Sorry, I digress.

IMO, there is a conflict here. You can't argue that you are for life of the unborn and then commit "abortion" 40-50 years after the fact. If you are pro-life you should consistently be pro-life for all.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
Perhaps, Richard, but my point is that it is extremely odd for a group of people who want small government and lower taxes to support the government having the power to kill people and spend millions of dollars to do it. It seems to me that regardless of the emotional component attached to it, the death penalty is the most extreme power a government can have. I, for one, would prefer that ours didn't.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
In a word, yes, I agree with you.
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17667) 11 years ago
I agree as well.

I also find it ironic that the same people who are in favor of the death penalty and thus spending all that money and giving the government all that power, are the same ones who rail against jack-booted thugs and think you should be able to set up your own quasi-states within the U.S.
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Posted by Leif Hope (+100) 11 years ago
http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty

Interesting information from Amnesty International...
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 11 years ago
I agree as well...Utah is (I think) scheduled to execute by firing squad someone tonight...I am totally against the death penalty...so many men have lately been found innocent by DNA that were taken off death row in recent news...plus it is cheaper to do life without parole than execute someone, they claim, due to all the appeals, etc...
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3718) 11 years ago
IMO, there is a conflict here. You can't argue that you are for life of the unborn and then commit "abortion" 40-50 years after the fact. If you are pro-life you should consistently be pro-life for all.


I don't wish to debate either the death penalty or abortion, but this is nonsense. If you accept as fact the idea that the unborn is a person, then they are completely innocent, where the death row inmate has presumably been convicted of a heinous crime. If you were to carry this logic forward, then you should be against imprisonment as well because after all, you don't support the imprisonment of innocent people, so how can you support the imprisonment of criminals?

To be clear, I'm not making an argument for or against either the death penalty or abortion, I just object to this line of reasoning from a purely logical standpoint. Also, I don't mean to pick on Richard here, people say this all the time, much to my annoyance.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
You lost me.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4457) 11 years ago
I was going to say it until Levi said it.

There's a massive flaw in logic.

Saying the death penalty and abortion are equivalent is like saying we can't jail felons because we don't throw newborns in the slammer.

There's this little matter of guilt or innocence we seem to be missing somewhere.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
Many people who are pro-life look at human life as somehow sacred and therefore intrinsically worthy of existence. This would include all of us regardless of our "goodness" or "badness". I believe this is why suicide is prohibited in the Catholic Church and also why many churches do not support the death penalty.

Here's a thought. If the death penalty is supposed to deter others from committing heinous crimes why do we hide it away? Shouldn't the executions be public so that future criminals could see what's in store for them and thus be deterred?
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey (+277) 11 years ago
Many people who are pro-life look at human life as somehow sacred and therefore intrinsically worthy of existence.


while this may be true, this isn't an individual who believed that human life was sacred. why should we the people believe his life to be sacred? (just asking/ a thought.)
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
There's a massive flaw in logic.

Saying the death penalty and abortion are equivalent is like saying we can't jail felons because we don't throw newborns in the slammer.

There's this little matter of guilt or innocence we seem to be missing somewhere.


But I said it so it doesn't have to be "logical". I believe that murder is alway wrong, whether it is through abortion or by the firing squad.

Wendy: you seem to be arguing about something where there is little disagreement.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3718) 11 years ago
Many people who are pro-life look at human life as somehow sacred and therefore intrinsically worthy of existence. This would include all of us regardless of our "goodness" or "badness". I believe this is why suicide is prohibited in the Catholic Church and also why many churches do not support the death penalty.


This may be true, but it obviously doesn't apply to those that support the death penalty. So again, there is no contradiction.
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Posted by Kyle L. Varnell (+3751) 11 years ago
Wendy,

Utah has a firing squad?

http://www.comcast.net/ar..._mainlink2
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Posted by Jeff Denton (+757) 11 years ago
Sometimes it seems there may be too many people in the world.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Now Wendy can enlighten us all on the doctrine of "blood atonement"
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<If the death penalty is supposed to deter others from committing heinous crimes why do we hide it away>

That one's easy, wendy. We can't handle the truth. Execution is deliberate and final....and thats a no no for our culture. We hide it because too many cry crocodile tears over the reality of justice being served. People don't like to cry or feel uncomfortable..... so they pretend to be above the obvious ugly solution and call it inhumane etc.

For sure, the death penalty is gruesome...just as it ought to be. But it sure can't deter anything ...if it isn't used.

agoin to catch it now...aint I?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
I didn't intend this thread to be a discussion of abortion but I should have known better.

Kyle, Utah had a firing squad. It was prohibited a few years ago but several death row inmates were grandfathered in and were allowed to have that method if they so chose. Ronnie Lee Gardner so chose.

Christen, we the people should rise above the actions of a murderer, don't you think?

Bridgier, apparently the blood of Jesus wasn't enough for the Mormons. Note I use the past tense. The official position is that they've disavowed the doctrine.
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Posted by Bill Freese (+473) 11 years ago
Sometimes the solution to a problem is to kill a person. Abortion, war, death penalty, murder. All solving problems by killing people. We should look for better solutions.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<Sometimes the solution to a problem is to kill a person. Abortion, war, death penalty, murder. All solving problems by killing people. We should look for better solutions.>

Until you can bring the victim back to life....Its a waste of time attempting to fine a more just solution for murder than the death penalty for the perpetrator.

As I have mentioned before...we need no more "solutions" for crimminal behavior other than what the Book already gives. Where we continue to run aground however, is thinking we know better than God. We think our silly sentiment trumps God's wisdom.

Execution is the best we can do for deliberate homicide with malice and aforethought. No...the justice in the death penalty is NOT for the perpetrator's victim. (NOTHING we can ever do will change the injustice comitted there). And...No...the death penalty shouldn't be carried out for its possible deterent effect either...(although that surely has prevented much bloodshed of potential victims)

The true value in execution is that we show God we take His idea of the value of mankind very serious.. He tells us that we are so valuable as the crown of His creation that no other penalty will suffice when we presume to destroy one made is His very image. That is why He commands it. Makes perfect sense.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1664) 11 years ago
Unfortunately, we humans are not infallibile when it comes to determining with certainty those who are guilty of destroying "one made in His very image".

I believe that He may rethink the "solutions" provided to us in the Good Book in light of our repeated missteps in this regard. It's demoralizing to think that we, the people, may have executed an innocent person. If it hasn't happened already, it is just a matter of time.
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey (+277) 11 years ago
Christen, we the people should rise above the actions of a murderer, don't you think?


those in line for execution are already receiving better treatment in their death than those they have murdered. these individuals have the luxury of being able to say good-bye to those who care about them, and the method of death is 'humane'. their fate is their own fault.
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 11 years ago
but suppose they are not really guilty and it is all a case of mistaken identity??
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
The death penalty is an Old Testament way of doing things. An eye for an eye, etc. It seems a bit grade school to me. There are times when I think we are no better than animals, and in some respects, worse. This is one of them.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
Death penalty is simply a need for revenge. It isn't about keeping people safe because life in prison does that and is cheaper than the death penalty. It is a primitive urge for revenge.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
If you are a Christian how can you possibly believe in putting an end to the chance of a person's possible future decision for salvation, however small you believe that to be? Why not let God be the judge of when this person's life should end? Why step in and usurp God?
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<It's demoralizing to think that we, the people, may have executed an innocent person.>


Perhaps.... but its a lot more demoralizing to let proven serial killers like Manson live longer than it takes to walk them to the death house.
We should never eliminate the death penalty simply because man can make mistakes. He makes them all the time. Some might even conceed a mistake is made when innocent folks become victims...think maybe?
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Posted by Leif Hope (+100) 11 years ago
Luke 6:29
Accept the injury and do not seek revenge.
Difficult concept...
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 11 years ago
this is fairly disgusting to me...to announce on Twitter the intentional murder of a human being....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/h...348685.stm
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<Death penalty is simply a need for revenge.>

For some perhaps...having your wife or child raped and buried alive (like our friend mr cooey did to Jessica) does tend to have the effect of causing one to think of revenge.

<It isn't about keeping people safe>

Really?...then why even keep them in prison at all?

<because life in prison does that and is cheaper than the death penalty.>

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Not only that, The death penalty would be a whole lot less expensive if we'd get rid of all the years of appeals. I mean...c'mon...a box of .308's aint agoin to break the government.

<It is a primitive urge for revenge.>

Primitive or not...it serves a purpose.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<If you are a Christian how can you possibly believe in putting an end to the chance of a person's possible future decision for salvation, however small you believe that to be?>

Another easy one. I could care less about any decision someone like Coey or Bundy or Manson ever made. We are only concerned with what God has commanded us to do in response to the depravity they have exhibited...no more, no less. . Tears...even very big sincere ones, don't count for much.

<Why not let God be the judge of when this person's life should end?>

He has already told us when a killers life should end. Its we who are at fault for not listening.

< Why step in and usurp God?>

Its not usurping...its obeying....regardless of the sentiment.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
What would Jesus do, Frank.
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
So let me get this straight everyone that says we should abolish the death penalty think that if we would have captured Hilter, he should be in prison until he dies naturaly.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
So let me get this straight everyone that says we should abolish the death penalty think that if we would have captured Hilter, he should be in prison until he dies naturaly.


Yup... such an effort would keep the heinousness of his actions in the mind of the public for a very long time.
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
Or it suggest that anyone could do what he did and just get put in prison for it no matter how many people where killed. What do you think stops people more 1. knowing they are going to die if they killed someone or 2.) knowing they are going to get 3 meals for the rest of your life weather it is 3 years or 80 years.
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
3 meals a day
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
mac. When someone commits an extremely heinous crime, I doubt they're worried about being caught in the first place. Do you think Hitler thought to himself as he set the wheels of the holocaust into motion:
'Boy. I'm gonna be in big trouble if we lose this war'.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
What do you think stops people more 1. knowing they are going to die if they killed someone or 2.) knowing they are going to get 3 meals for the rest of your life weather it is 3 years or 80 years.


I don't think that people who are that depraved are deterred or stopped by thinking about such issues.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<What would Jesus do, Frank.>

Not sure, Bob... Jesus can forgive alright...but i hope you don't think there is any requirement in the Book saying He HAS to.

On the other hand...I don't think He would be calling in the ACLU just so things would be "fair". If you think He would be crying crocodile tears over someone who had just been executed for destroying one (or perhaps dozens) made in His image....you are mistaken, seriously mistaken.

For starters....He would say obey my law, Bob...and stop thinking you know better.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<So let me get this straight everyone that says we should abolish the death penalty think that if we would have captured Hilter, he should be in prison until he dies naturaly.


Yup... such an effort would keep the heinousness of his actions in the mind of the public for a very long time.>


This is the type of thinking that has got us where we are today where someone can go to prison for destroying fish eggs and yet some "doctors" make very good money ripping babies apart just so we don't have to put up with the inconvenience. Anyone see any absurdity here?...no i didn't think so.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1664) 11 years ago
What do you think stops people more 1. knowing they are going to die if they killed someone or 2.) knowing they are going to get 3 meals for the rest of your life weather it is 3 years or 80 years.


I've always suspected Hitler's obsession with creating a master race was really about getting those three square meals a day. Glad to know we undermined his true intentions.
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
Denise that was just a example. No matter how many people were killed people think he should just be in jail. How about Bin Ladin should he just go to jail? The answer is no.
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Posted by Chris Gamrath (+379) 11 years ago
Wendy said- "Utah had a firing squad. It was prohibited a few years ago but several death row inmates were grandfathered in and were allowed to have that method if they so chose"

THAT statement is a great example of one of the things wrong with the death penalty. Appeals and re-trials and ongoing litegatation for years and sometimes decades is what drives up the costs of having someone on death row. The fact that the guy from Utah had been on death row for 20+ years and is just now meeting is fate his sickening to me.

I for one whole heartdly support and stand strong for the death penalty. Better yet I support the "do onto you what you've do onto others" penalty. You should be allowed one appeal for the fact that no one gets it right every single time. (Even the MLB has has to conceed this fact!) If after your appeal the same decision is reached you should receive your punishment at that time! We've fed you 3 squares a day while you had your appeal, you've had enough, your time is done. If you shot someone, you get shot. No glitz and glamour (MEDIA), one bullet and you're done. If you stab someone, you get stabbed. I would also include rapists in this equation in the fact of if you're convicted (have your one appeal and are still found to be guily) you will no longer have the means to rape again no matter what because your "urge" will be surgically eliminated.

In short (too late I know) the principle of "Eye for an eye" has quite a lot of merit in my mind and if not for our f'd up court systems, would serve us well!

Just one guy's opinion of course
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
I'm not saying I know better Frank. I just sure as hell know YOU don't know better.
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
Bob I was just using hitler as a example on how people think if he was still alive today that he should just be in prison. Which I think is ridiculous. The reason I was using him as an example some people are hypocrites that think since his crimes were so bad that it would be ok for him to die, but it is not right for a person to die who rapes someone then bashes there head in with a hammer 50 times.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
The Bible says "an eye for an eye" is what we are NOT to be doing.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4457) 11 years ago
I'm mostly impressed by the sudden-found need for WWJD justification of state action.

Not that it disappoints me, just surprising considering some of the sources.

I almost support banning the death penalty just to see if this question might get asked a little more often.

Somehow I suspect it's just a one-hit wonder.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: / But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
What do you do with that, Frank?
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11902) 11 years ago
The purpose of the death penalty is state sponsored revenge. There is no evidence it prevents crimes, especially when folks are drunk. The death penalty is final, which is a problem in states like Texas where they lock folks up without being overly concerned about their guilt or innocence.

Should you be able to prove to me that a murderer committed murder beyond any possibility of that person's innocence, I would still prefer a lifetime of incarceration. They can think about their crime while they are alive and, just in case, can be released because there is new evidence.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
Right, Rickenhawk. If he'd been in Utah for the recent execution, your Jesus would've asked to shoot one of the rifles, hoping for one with live ammo.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<I'm not saying I know better Frank.>

Well never let it be said you and I never agree then.


<I just sure as hell know YOU don't know better.>

Thats what I used to try to convince my dad of...still got the whupin anyway.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
http://vimeo.com/12493449

The video is excellent and one minute long.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<The Bible says "an eye for an eye" is what we are NOT to be doing.>

True and God also assures us that vengence is His alone. However...what you appear to be forgetting is that He has also chosen the METHOD for His vengence to be applied. He doesn't often simply strike us dead..(although He HAS done that on occasion for sure, to someone who really really asked for it). We have been given His laws...AND the penalties (which are not just suggestions) for violating them...which most of you choke and fume over...but thats another story. Governments based upon Judeo/Christian worldview work great...as long as we don't let weak kneed liberals interfere.

You folks are quick to point out the love that Christians are supposed to show...but you hate the part about how important His laws are in the first place. Your fake outrage is quite funny when we suggest that abortion, homosexuality and ad infinitum...is...wrong..... as the book says it is.

You folks confuse "tolerance and love" with "anything goes as long as it feels good".
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<The purpose of the death penalty is state sponsored revenge.>

It doesn't have to be. When the law provides the penalty...revenge is taken out of the equation. That some may feel good about seeing the killer get whats coming to him is irrlevant. I can't help what the victims feel...and neither can you.


<There is no evidence it prevents crimes, especially when folks are drunk.>

We ought not be concerned about preventing anything here. Our concern is meeting out justice to the best of our ability. Being drunk...an excuse? How about being on drugs? How about just having a hot temper as an excuse? Just one big boo hoo hoo over the poor perpetrator...right? Once...just ONCE I'd really like to hear you libs speak of personal accountability. You libs are always on the side of perversion. To heck with personal accountability...right?


<The death penalty is final, which is a problem in states like Texas where they lock folks up without being overly concerned about their guilt or innocence.>

Yes..well lets hope its final for sure.

<Should you be able to prove to me that a murderer committed murder beyond any possibility of that person's innocence, I would still prefer a lifetime of incarceration.>

To be honest I'd never try to prove anything to you. Proof is the last thing you want. You see...all you are concerned with is...what you "prefer". Who cares what you or i "prefer"? What we ought to be seeking is not relativistic "preference" but what is real and true. God's law is the one and ONLY way we will ever accomplish that. I guess thats why you folks detest His law so much.




<They can think about their crime while they are alive and, just in case, can be released because there is new evidence.>

That is silly. Bundy had lots of time for "thought" all the while butchering those women. Time for a reality check, dear.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
Frank: What is the Gospel? What is grace?

Go do a survey and see just how many people are in prison today because of people like you in their lives who always preached Law without any Gospel or grace. There is nothing about your approach that makes me glad I am a Christian. In fact, it is starting to push me the other way.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<Frank: What is the Gospel?>

I think I know....but How about you telling me the answer first?

<What is grace?>

Again...You tell me. What is grace according to the Book?

<Go do a survey and see just how many people are in prison today because of people like you in their lives who always preached Law without any Gospel or grace.>

Have you done such a survey yourself or are you just blowing smoke?

<There is nothing about your approach that makes me glad I am a Christian.>

If you are truly a Christian..my "approach" should have no effect on you one way or another. I can't save you...nor can i send you to hell.

<In fact, it is starting to push me the other way.>

I hope you can see that if i have that big an effect on you...then you couldn't have been much of a Christian to begin with.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
Jesus was walking along one day and noticed a commotion up ahead.
'What's going on?" he asked.
"This woman is a harlot so we're stoning her" a man replied.
"Let's see some heat!" Jesus exclaimed.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Was this before or after he kicked the crap out of that gay couple next to the well in capernum?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15076) 11 years ago
In other words you don't have a clue. Jesus spent more time railing against the so called "keepers of the law than any other group. The beatitudes which Polar Bear ask you about and you ignored are an example of law and gospel. We are to live in the grace of the gospel, NOT under the law!.

So that Wendy won't think this thread is a complete waste:

Several weeks ago I received a long letter from someone who told basically told me their life story and explained to me why my "christian" perspective at the time was offensive. This person had been hurt several times by so-called "christians". The letter caused me to reevaluate many things in my life. This is still an ongoing process.

I look back over the number of posts I have made here and see a lot of Franks attitudes in myself. I don't know what has changed but I am increasingly frustrated by these attitudes. I want to take the opportunity to ask the forgiveness of each and every one here that I may have offended with my legalistic attitude. I have a long way to go as I ponder the issues of the day and reform my view of the world. Hopefully, I can do that with a more gracious attitude than I have in the past.

~~~~

I do think the Bible, specifically the Book of Romans pretty clearly delegates issues such as the death penalty to government. So pointing to the Bible as the ultimate source for this issue is not helpful and frankly, isn't the purpose of the Bible. I have come to the conclusion that we would be a better nation if our government did away with the death penalty.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
Richard,

Your honesty is admirable. We should all examine and challenge our beliefs from time to time. It seems that we tend to ignore the opposite point of view until it affects us directly. Thanks for showing me that there are people on this site who are willing to think deeply and with compassion. Shall I sign you up for the Democratic Party?
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Posted by Chris Gamrath (+379) 11 years ago
I don't see how it would be relevant to point to the Bible in this particular issue when there's a little thing called "Seperation of Church and State" to prevent just such a case.

I consider myself to be just as much a "Christian" as the next person even though I can't quote chapter and verse from the Bible, nor do I attend any particular church on a regular basis. Though it obviously pulls away from the intended idea of this thread (SHOCKER!) it should also be pointed out that Christianity is not the only religion of this world, or this country for that matter.

What you choose to put your faith in, IS your religion be it God, or Buddah, or the Great King of Oceania Neptune. I believe myself to be a Christian. Yea for me. My bellef is no more right or wrong then your belief. I find the death penalty to be a fair and just means to an end that someone created prematurely for someone else without their permission to do so. There are serious holes and flaws in the system that governs it just the same as many other laws.

My final thought on this would be...
"If you want to fix the problem, get rid of the lawyers!"
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
Till you need one, Chris.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11902) 11 years ago
I'm an atheist so the Bible is literature to me. However, I have studied it some and know that Jesus said the only rules that mattered were the 10 commandments and I'm pretty sure one of those had something to say about killing. As for the other Judaic laws, Christians can eat lobster and bacon, mow their lawns on Sunday and pretty much anything else.

As for abortion and homosexuality. . .Jesus was silent on those subjects. He did said remarriage after divorce was right out but since that is pretty much ignored these days, I don't know why anyone worries about what he said.

I take my cue from a man I know whose daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter were murdered by a drug addict. He fought against the death penalty because he knew it would do no good for anyone. It wouldn't bring back his family. It wouldn't prevent another murder. It would just murder someone else and he didn't want that to happen.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<I consider myself to be just as much a "Christian" as the next person even though I can't quote chapter and verse from the Bible>

So....as a Christian...does the gospel mean anything at all to you? Richard wont explain it to us so perhaps you could....or then again maybe it doesn't really matter?
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 11 years ago
wow, Frank, I am shocked at your lack of "Christian" attitude toward others on this thread...You, very obviously, want an argument but fail to answer anyone elses questions, like Richard's question...You just say "you tell me" and it sounds as if you don't know the answers and think you are being very clever turning the argument around and attacking your opponent...I suspect that Richard knows more about the Gospel and Grace than you ever thought of knowing...Richard is going thru a hard time in his like and is trying to self examine some of his long held beliefs...that IMO takes courage and perhaps you should follow his example instead of playing games with others verbally and being a smart a$$...
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Posted by mac01 (+17) 11 years ago
Why should any of us decide weather there should be the death penalty? If you where convicted without a reasonable doubt of murder the persons family who was murdered should decide wether or not to use the death penalty. That way they have whatever closure they want.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1664) 11 years ago
Richard,

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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
Very classy post, Richard. It is something I need to think about too.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<In other words you don't have a clue.>

All Christians understand the gospel. But just what is it? Here are a few things that it is...NOT.

1. peace of mind
2. freedom from drugs
3. being "good"
4. living right
5. thinking highly of Jesus
6. doing your best
7. doing unto others as you would have them do unto you

The gospel, properly understood, may indeed produce all of the above...but the gospel itself is not about us. It is about Someone else.

Here is the way i explain it to anyone who will listen. First we ALL know God exists and that He is worthy to be worshipped. (Romans tells us how we know this) (Amorette thinks shes an exception but of course is simply mistaken)

Next, God is absolutely perfect...and as a matter of fact has given us a command that we must also be perfect if we have any inclination of ever living in His presence. Thats bad news....which the publican understood clearly and that is why He cried out for God's mercy...just as everyone of us must do.

At this point it would be over for all of us...except for the fact that "God so loved the world...that he gave his only begotten Son" (to take our punishment for all the trash we have done)....so that we could actually be perfect which God requires.



<Jesus spent more time railing against the so called "keepers of the law than any other group.>

I think you are mistaken. Jesus spoke very highly of the law....after all..it comes from God. There is nothing wrong with God's law. What Jesus spoke against and condemned were those who actually thought they could keep that law.

Richard...can you see what the purpose is of having God's law?

Let me answer that question for you. The purpose of the law is to drive us to our knees in dispair.....just like the poor publican who saw himself for the sinner he was. The law requires perfection and that means the end for us because no one comes close. Thats why the gospel really IS good news.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
This reminds me of the bumper sticker, "The Bible says it, end of discussion". I wonder how many people this has turned away.

I prefer this one:" God has asked us to be fishers of men. He has not asked us to gut and clean them." Think about it, Frank.
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
The gospel can be summed up in a single word: GRACE
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
Was (is) Christ perfect, Frank? The other question I asked(and the great Rickenhawk called a one hit wonder) is....What would Jesus do? If he'd been at that execution, what would he have done? You seem to be the latest mc.com biblical interpretation expert. How would he have acted? What would he have done?
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17667) 11 years ago
I do think the Bible, specifically the Book of Romans pretty clearly delegates issues such as the death penalty to government.


Well, of course it does.....it is the Book of ROMANS
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible.
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Posted by Leif Hope (+100) 11 years ago
http://www.jewishpath.org...grace.html
"The Origins of Grace in The Torah"

I found this an interesting read.
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Posted by Chris Gamrath (+379) 11 years ago
So in short I'm to interpret that Frank's intepretation of God and the Bible are final and exact? Which still leaves me to wonder, "What of those who don't recognize God and/or the Bible?" I guess they're just wrong...... interesting Christiam view.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11902) 11 years ago
How do we know the Bible is the word of God. It says so in the Bible. How do we know the Bible is true? Because it is the word of God. How do we know the Bible is the word of God. It says so in the Bible. How do we know the Bible is true. Because it is the word of God.

Rinse. Repeat endlessly.
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Posted by howdy (+4949) 11 years ago
Circular logic is so much fun sometimes and when people accept it unconditionally based on itself, it is amazing to me that they are so very gullible...
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<Was (is) Christ perfect, Frank?>

Yes. of course.

<The other question I asked(and the great Rickenhawk called a one hit wonder) is....What would Jesus do? If he'd been at that execution, what would he have done? You seem to be the latest mc.com biblical interpretation expert. How would he have acted? What would he have done?>

Ok Bob...you appear to really want to know so i'll give it a shot.

One thing I can always count on from the pagan...is that he always seems to know Jesus better than any Christian. The pagan wont darken the door of a church or actually pick the Book and examine it...but he's always confident he knows Jesus pretty well. He has heard lots of good things about this Jesus. He has heard all about.."turning the other cheek"....."judge not lest ye be judged"...."the innocent babe in the manger" etc...and the pagan likes these parts...espcially when he can use them to show the hypocrisy of many who claim to know Christ. Fair enough.

However...You have to take the whole Book, Bob...not just the parts that give you the warm fuzzies. It is often suggested that God's main attribute is love...and ultimately that is true....but not in the way most here are portraying it. But He has never been so "loving" that He will allow indiscriminate blaspheming of His Son Jesus Christ (murder is one way to blaspheme...just so you know) and simply say..."hey don't worry about it, I forgive you...go and be well."

You wont hear a lot about the wrath of God..not even from many who call themselves Christian. But...its there in black and white and so it might be wise to come to grips with the fact that God is never required to be merciful to ANY of us...ever. And not only that He has PROMISED that a day is coming when the mercy that He is showing every one of us right now...will be cut off forever for those who continue in unrepenting depravity.

What would Jesus say or do about the execution of a convicted murderer? Who knows? The murderer may be pardoned (as barabbas was)...or he may be executed depending upon God's good pleasure. Its always God perogative, see? Rest assured that if God does deceide to allow the execution to go forward..NOTHING INJUST will occur. Mercy is never obligatory...and most here have not caught on to that.

There is more of course...but this is enough to raise lots of ire I'm sure so i'll end for now.
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Posted by Frank Cory (+237) 11 years ago
<So in short I'm to interpret that Frank's intepretation of God and the Bible are final and exact? Which still leaves me to wonder, "What of those who don't recognize God and/or the Bible?" I guess they're just wrong...... interesting Christiam view.>

You'll never know unless you actually spend time examining it for yourself. But for most pagans...thats a little much. To actually search for answers, i mean. Its much easier to just repeat what the scoffing peanut gallery says and just leave it at that. After all...if there really is a God, one that acts a lot like the one in scripture and who actually holds us accountable for our lives..we are pretty sure we individual selves will do ok because we haven't been all that bad. We know we aren't perfect, mind you...but we certainly haven't comitted mass murder like a Bundy or Dahmer so no worries...right?

Every pagan has had those kinds of thoughts. Perhaps you are one. I'd encourage you to examine the reality of God's obvious existence and what He is like....Ultimately ....If God is real and if he is the God of scripture then we are all accountable...even if we "prefer" to think not.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4457) 11 years ago
I don't see how it would be relevant to point to the Bible in this particular issue when there's a little thing called "Seperation of Church and State" to prevent just such a case.

That's kinda what I was getting at, along with the fact that the most ardent separationists seem to be the first to trot out a WWJD the first time it might suit their purpose.

Somehow when I say it though, it's translated into me talking about how Jesus would've grabbed a rifle and personally shot through the whole clip, and then demanded more ammo.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6171) 11 years ago
Its always God perogative, see? Rest assured that if God does deceide to allow the execution to go forward..NOTHING INJUST will occur. Mercy is never obligatory...and most here have not caught on to that.



Ok. Death row inmates are not unjustly executed because God would not allow them to be. Therefore, no one executed has been unjustly executed. Therefore all executed have been justly executed. Therefore our justice system is perfect. Anyone see a problem here?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Mercy is never obligatory


I'm sorry, but your god is a monster.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11902) 11 years ago
Since Touchdown Jesus was struck by lightning, does this mean God doesn't like big tacky foam depictions of his Son?

Knowing what God is thinking is pretty tricky unless you are God. We mere humans can only interpret what we are given and what we are given is contradictory.

How about we dispense with religion and stick to the facts. What benefit is there to executing people? Can we be absolutely certain when we execute someone we are killing the right someone?

Those are the questions that need to be answered.
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Posted by Chris Gamrath (+379) 11 years ago
I can't really believe it's THAT hard for people to believe.

"I watched him walk into the bank and demand the teller to give him the money. She said no and he shot her at point blank range in the face killing her instantly. He's now on death row awaiting his punishment"

Given this. I'd bet my last dollar (yes MC Webmaster I still have it) that this scenario has played out more then once or twice, I don't think it would take much to be certain "We got the right person undeniably"

Secondly, maybe God struck down Touchdown Jesus because he was cheering for the other team??
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Posted by polar bear (+515) 11 years ago
But it is not that black and white. What if the person was mentally ill, or had post traumatic stress, or had a brain tumor? What if the person was trying to get money so they could have their child's cancer treated? What if the person was mentally retarded? What if the person was being black mailed? What if the person had a family member being held hostage and would be harmed if they did not bring the money back?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
What if we simply decide that killing people to teach people not to kill people isn't very effective?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Since there's no longer an edit button, I'll just double post...

Anyways - I've avoided this thread for a couple of reasons, mainly because (and I can't believe I'm about to type this) Friend Richard speaks my mind on this subject, and also because I'm pretty sure any thoughts I had regarding the death penalty vis-a-vis abortion would be lost in the calvacade of logical fallacies that would be marshaled to rebut me. And I'm sort of tired of that. But anyways - While Chris's suggestions would appear, on their face, to be valid, I wonder if the scenario he's suggesting isn't any less of a "just-so" scenario than the extenuating circumstances that polar bear raises in response. What is the actual number of cut and dried death penalty cases vs the number of cases where a conviction is secured based on eyewitness testimony (or even worse) circumstantial evidence in lieu of video or dna evidence?

And then there's always this: http://www.examiner.com/e...r-too-late

The wheels of justice sometimes are more interested in process than justice.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Edit button oh edit button, wherefore art thou oh edit button.

In summation - any system whose outcome would appear to be primarily influenced by the quality of representation that one can afford is not a system to which the power to end a life should be granted.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
"That's kinda what I was getting at, along with the fact that the most ardent separationists seem to be the first to trot out a WWJD the first time it might suit their purpose."

Oh hell. You win Rick. From what I can tell, your Jesus(and Frank's) has won. The Jesus I learned about and still love is dead and buried while bible-thumping right-wing "experts" like you and Frank are pissing on his grave. Screw the poor, adore the rich, rectify violence with more violence and attach Jesus to any, and I mean any, right-wing ideology you can think of. It'll always work. You wanna beat your wife up tonight. You'll probably find scripture that can be "interpreted" to support that decision , too.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
While I think Rick is capable of justifying any number of horrible systemic inequalities in the name of the Lord, I'm absolutely positive that on a personal level, he's not going to abuse anybody's wife, particularly his own. He's also an Elk, and wears a kilt on occasion, which means he's probably a guy you'd want to have a beer with, as long as you didn't discuss politics.

That doesn't mean I think he or people like him should be in charge of our government, but he's not a thug.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
I was making a point, Bridger. That's all. But I stand by that point and I'm not going to apologize.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9297) 11 years ago
Fair enough. The mendacious are always maligned, though rarely unfairly. Or something along those lines.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4457) 11 years ago
Bob, you've actually thrown down the gauntlet on an issue I'm fairly mixed-up about.

I have no doubt that Jesus would not participate or probably even endorse state execution.

But on the flip side, I don't think in any way it can be defined as murder. That defies the real meaning of the word, and the clear text of the bible.

The real difficulty isn't in the death itself. We'll all die. Accordingly, we'll all be judged. The only real reason to spare the death row inmate's life is so that he can seek forgiveness and redemption for his soul from the only one who can give it.

Otherwise, it's all for nothing. A waste of time and money for all involved.

But again mostly the reason I said anything was that if the topic were on the other side of the court (ie abortion) bringing Jesus into the discussion about what the state should or shouldn't allow would be laughed out of the room by the same people now throwing out his name.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1910) 11 years ago
I've never used Jesus to validate abortion. But "your side" uses the Bible and Jesus to justify damn near anything. That's my problem.
Frank Cory is about a wink away from the Fred Phelps gang. Keep trying.
You can earn that merit badge.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4457) 11 years ago
I've never used Jesus to validate abortion.

No, but you would have a problem with anyone who used Jesus to argue against it.
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