Creep or Christian??
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
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Posted by Jim Brady (+425) 12 years ago
howdy wants to start another Christian bashing thread, so I'll kick it off.

I have to take exception to your premise, howdy.

Creeps come in all sizes, shapes, ethnicity, ideology and gender. How does the fact that this one was a clerk in a retail bookstore reflect on Christianity?

Equal opportunity employment laws don't allow discrimination on the basis of religious belief, so for all you know, this particular creep could be Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or atheist.

But then if that were true, it would be politically incorrect to single out this creep......
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 12 years ago
I have met both good and bad Christians. However when I first meet someone, and soon after I have met them they start telling me what a good Christian they are, I hold my wallet very tightly.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
While it is correct to assume that creeps come from all types of people, this bookstore was a Christian bookstore...thus the reason for my title...Wasn't intended to be a religious bashing thread either, but as usual you love to fight...

I agree Lorin, that when folks wear their religion on their sleeves, it isn't a quality that I easily trust...

[This message has been edited by howdy (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
I'm going to agree with Jim - the attributes of "Christian" and "Creep" are, sadly, orthoginal.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Orthogonal?
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Again I didn't say this was Creep AND Christian but Creep or Christian....Makes a world of difference IMO...
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
That's what you get for going into a Christian bookstore.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
ROFL BOB....
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
Just because you are in a church doesn't make you a Christian. Some of the worst people I have ever met are Christian ministers in disguise! And then again, the best friends that I've had in my entire life are also Christian ministers. But they actually live what they preach, unlike the others.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
Right howdy - your question was (at least on initial reading) a false dichotomy:

christian and creep
!christian and creep
!christian and !creep
christian and !creep

But saying Christian or creep implies one or the other, but not not both.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Well I didn't wish to imply anything other than that creep that filmed the ladies in the bathroom was in a Christian bookstore...GEEZZZZZZZ...Much ado about nothing...IMO...

"Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than sitting in a garage makes you a Cadillac..."

[This message has been edited by howdy (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
I can provide a venn diagram if that would be useful....
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Posted by Jim Brady (+425) 12 years ago
Bridgier got "A's" in calculus.

howdy, your stroking. It's obvious why you posted this particular article. If it would have been at McDonald's, the link wouldn't be here.

It should come as no great surprise that perverts can be found anywhere.

Have you ever had employees to deal with?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
I did actually, the third time that I took it
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Posted by Jim Brady (+425) 12 years ago
That makes me feel better.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Jim,

My definition of the word Christian doesn't include CREEP.....I was saying was this guy a Creep OR a Christian..If someone is a CREEP, then they definitely aren't a Christian IMO...I have a great deal of respect for REAL Christians...I guess I shouldn't have used my definition of Christian...It is a term that is too easily used by fakes to cover their real intentions...
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
Christians everywhere will be thrilled to know you are defending them, Jim.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Speaking of false dichotomies ...

I'll be happy when I no longer hear the phrase, "That wasn't a very Christian thing to do" in response to someone doing something that's not very ethical.

The expression implies that when someone does something good, it's somehow more "Christian," and vice-versa.

It's a ridiculous expression. Christians don't hold a monopoly on ethics, morality or any other form of "goodness."
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I agree, Brian, totally with you, but I also think that a true Christian cannot be a creep...there are very few real Christians...thin on the ground IMO...
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
When people speak about someone doing something Christian they are referring to acting as a follower of Christ. Behaving in a way he told his followers to behave. He spoke of treating others with love, of giving of oneself, of being obedient to the will of God.

Nowhere does it say that only Christians act in that manner or that it excludes other religions which also believe in many of the same things.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Nowhere does it say that only Christians act in that manner or that it excludes other religions which also believe in many of the same things.

Then you reinforce my point, Kacey. There's no reason to say it at all. By even mentioning Christians, the phrase implies that Christians are somehow more ethical than a non-Christian.

Religion needn't enter the conversation at all when it comes to "believing the same things," either.

And Kacey, you responded to one of my posts. Oops.

Howdy - a "true Christian" believes their salvation is through Christ. If a person believes they're "forgiven" and their soul is going to heaven due to that belief, then they are Christians.

That's not my working definition, either. It's John 3:16's.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
In the middle of Montana a person could say "that's not a very Jewish thing to do" and how many people would actually know what they meant? Saying it is a Christian thing is most often said because whether you are a Christian or not, odds are you know what it implies.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Have you ever even heard of your proposed expression, Kacey? Be realistic.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
Brian, how often have you heard the phrase being directed at people who aren't christian?
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Guess my definition isn't the same as the others...I simply don't believe that a creep can be or was ever a Christian...If they turn out to be a creep, odds are they always were IMO...my definition of a Christian is living by the standards that Jesus taught...a few of which would be love, forgiveness, giving to the poor, etc etc...Maybe I am just a pollyanna when it comes to this definition but so many people in todays age hide behind that label and seem to hold themselves above others like some kind of exclusive club..and that is about as non-Christian as you can get IMO...
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
So which is more important? Orthopraxy or Orthodoxy?

Discuss.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
Nice strawman. It is not a matter of one being more important than the other.

IMWV: Proper orthodoxy produces proper orthopraxy.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Orthopraxy because how you live your life is what matters IMO...but I realize that is in direct contradiction to most religions...which is why I detest organized religion in most cases..
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
Somehow I can picture Martian Luther and John Wesley having the same "argument".
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
Geez. Thirty posts that say nothing but "that clerk was a creep".
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
Careful Richard, your hermanutics are showing...

In your worldview, can the equation be ran the other way? Will proper orthopraxy lead to proper orthodoxy?

If it doesn't, then I don't think the term you're looking for is "strawman".
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Well Richard, since I was raised a Methodist, that makes sense to me lol...

LOL, Richard, you called him Martian Luther...... Just noticed that...

[This message has been edited by howdy (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Howdy, if there are people who think I'm a creep, does that make me not Christian?

And Brian, isn't that your working definition of what John 3:16 says?

Bridgier, the comment is often directed at people who are don't claim to be Christian. It assumes (incorrectly) that we live in a Christian culture.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Sorry, didn't mean to take the conversation backwards. I had apparently left my screen open since early afternoon and when I posted, it updated several comments I hadn't read.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Doesn't matter what people think of you Derf, it matters what you truly are IMO...
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Brian, how often have you heard the phrase being directed at people who aren't christian?

I've found that most people in this country - and especially in this region - generally assume that their neighbors are Christians, Bridgier. What else could they possibly be, right?

I've also found that the people who disagree with this tend to think that they are better Christians than anyone else. Isn't that right, Derf?

The Authority's unassailable assertions notwithstanding, I do believe that the average person in this country seems to believe that this is a Christian country founded on Christian beliefs.

And Brian, isn't that your working definition of what John 3:16 says?

"That who so ever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

It doesn't leave much room for interpretation, Derf. Unless you want to split hairs ... which I imagine is exactly what you want to do. I'm not going to play that game with you, though. You are THE Authority, after all.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
Here we go again.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
See now Richard, Brian is giving a very good example of a strawman argument.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I'll be happy when I no longer hear the phrase, "That wasn't a very Christian thing to do" in response to someone doing something that's not very ethical.


Can I say when someone does something unethical....for example burn people at the stake.... "That's a very Catholic thing to do"?
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
but I realize that is in direct contradiction to most religions...


I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one, howdy.

It doesn't leave much room for interpretation


Then you might ought to actually familiarize yourself with the material before you interpret it.

As to orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy, wasn't it Peter Bohler who told John Wesley "Preach faith until you have faith and when you have faith you will preach faith?"
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
IMWV being a Christian is first and foremost about spending eternity in heaven by recognizing your sinfulness and accepting the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. You can practice proper orthopraxy, like helping grandma Morgan across the street and a whole host of other good works or right behaviors and deny the existence of God and/or the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Proper orthopraxy doesn't necessarily make you a Christian. Proper orthodoxy does and usually leads to proper orthopraxy.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (11/3/2009)]
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Please expand your disagreement Derf, as I would be interested in hearing which religion would agree with that...
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
Smiley, aren't Catholics Christians too? I mean, they profess to be believers of Christ, right?

As Christians, Catholics have their sins forgiven because of Christ's death. As Christians we firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone.

Yet for Catholics Rome would have them perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate their sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have them apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have them apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
It was a joke, posted by my husband. I hate to say this (for worry of a lot of hate directed at me) but he has a very bad view of the catholic church, that stems from the past things that have gone on. (i.e the dark ages, the crusades, witch hunts) It's nothing personal, and he doesn't personally hate anyone. He's just really angry about it. Mostly because of how much information was lost because of the catholics. That's why he made the joke. ... hope that explains it.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I believe the Catholic Church did away with purgatory...At least I read that somewhere (can't remember where)...
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Then you might ought to actually familiarize yourself with the material before you interpret it.


Um, okay? Kindly please tell me how else I am supposed to "interpret" what is as straightforward a verse as any in the Bible. You ARE the Authority, after all.

And by the way, I was a Christian once. It is partly because I "actually familiarized" myself with the material that I am now an apostate. Figured you'd have already known that, though.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
I believe the Catholic Church did away with purgatory...At least I read that somewhere (can't remember where)...

No.

http://www.reachingcathol...atory.html

Excerpt: "Despite popular opinion, however, purgatory is still an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church and an essential part of the Roman Catholic plan of salvation. The Church affirmed the existence of purgatory at each of the last three ecumenical councils: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II. The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation "in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." According to Vatican II, "in purgatory the souls of those ?who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions? are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt." The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of "cleansing fire."

I believe you're thinking of Limbo, Howdy.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
What is this plan of salvation? It sounds so technical, like a job description, or a plan of action. Goodness....

Did you know-
The Catholic church didn't forgive Galileo until 1981 for heresy by stating the theory of a heliocentric solar system as opposed to a geocentric solar system.

Poor Guy He went to hell for being right for a very, very long time.
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Posted by Salli (Scanlan) Moore (+81) 12 years ago
Christian = one who follows the teachings of Jesus the Christ (anointed one).
Religion or Denomination = mans feeble attempt at acknowledging God while he (man) remains in control (thus, the diversity in all the different "rules" to be a member).
Anything that is less than perfect is sin (using Gods word as your guideline). If you take the 10 Commandments - and add Jesus statement, that if you even "think" it, you have committed the sin .. That pretty much makes us all sinners. Me too!
John 3:16 (from my heart) God loves YOU so much, that He clothed Himself in flesh and came to earth, to open the door for communication between us. He (Jesus) went to the cross to pay our sin debt. If you accept that gift and give Him your life, you are "born again". Your spirit is born anew (I am a spirit, I have a soul and I live in a body). In our sin nature, our soul rules (desires of the flesh).
As a Christian, I study and pray to become a better person. I pray for the 2 people who tried to take my life. I pray for people who have hurt me and ask God to help me love them. I pray that I might be a good servant for Him. I pray that God provide, what ever it takes, to open your eyes to see the truth. So if you really want to know what the truth is - ask Him and He will show you, but you have to want it from your heart.
Brian - you were a Christian. I can't believe that you knew the creator of the universe and how much he loves you, and then decided that wasn't for you. Maybe it was religion (mans attempt/man in charge).
I thought I would not get involved with these debates again, because some of you can be very cruel. I don't know why - grrrrr I can't help myself!
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
"I thought I would not get involved with these debates again, because some of you can be very cruel. I don't know why - grrrrr I can't help myself!


Well said. I feel your "pain".
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
I would be interested in hearing which religion would agree with that


Howdy, I was simply stating that my experience leads me to believe there are more people who consider themselves practitioners of religion rather than ideologues.

And Brian,

tell me how else I am supposed to "interpret" what is as straightforward a verse as any in the Bible.


I kind of thought

a "true Christian" believes their salvation is through Christ. If a person believes they're "forgiven" and their soul is going to heaven due to that belief, then they are Christians.


was an interpretation, especially since it introduces several concepts which are foreign to John's Gospel.

Bridgier, it's entirely possible Brian missed your strawman comment.

Smiley, the "dark ages" are only called "dark" because we know so little about them. The people living then probably didn't think they were living in the dark ages.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Smiley, the "dark ages" are only called "dark" because we know so little about them. The people living then probably didn't think they were living in the dark ages.


Derf, I don't know you, but I can make an educated guess that you aren't very bright. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages
Why do you even interject comments about areas you don't understand?

[This message has been edited by Smiley (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
I must be as dumb as Derf then... because I'm not entirely certain what your wiki link is supposed to prove in relation to Derf's entirely reasonable point that the term "dark ages" wasn't one that people living within the time period in question would have recognized.

Obviously, you feel differently - why?
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
Smiley,

Your ability to wiki doesn't make you a rocket scientist. How can you make a pronouncement about a person's intelligence when you admit you don't know Derf? I suggest you get to know him by reading his other posts on this site.

To all here,

I'm always surprised by people's comments when religious faith is the topic. There seems to be such vehemence of feeling on both sides of the argument. My opinion is if you don't believe what someone else believes, so what? Another person's belief shouldn't bother you if you think it's wrong. For example, here behind the Zion curtain, people in the LDS church baptize dead people. They are only suppose to do it for people who are related to members. That's why they are so big on genealogy. The purpose is to give the dead person the opportunity to accept Mormon doctrine and therefore rise to a higher level of heaven. There have been several squabbles over this because church members have baptized Jewish victims of the Holocaust, Hitler, Lenin, and many other historical figures not related to members. Although the church has agreed to strike such names from the list and have cautioned their members not to do this, it remains a sore spot with many No-Mos in the community.

My take is this: If you don't believe that the baptism has any effect because you don't believe in LDS doctrine, why get so upset about it? They can baptize Jesus and Mohammad for all I care. I don't believe it means anything or has any effect whatsoever.

You can bet that when this issue comes up LDS church leaders say to themselves, "Well, if they don't believe our doctrine is true then why are they so upset? They must know in their hearts that we're right!"
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I agree with Wendy, that getting so upset about an opposing point of view is a giant waste of time and energy...I will never convince others of my viewpoints and they won't convince me either...I don't know why I try, other than to, perhaps, explain where I am coming from...No one likes to be misunderstood, no matter which side you represent...In my advanced years, I am comfortable with my beliefs thankfully...that is what matters to me at this point...It, however, is always interesting to read other points of view...
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I was just pointing out that the "dark ages" were not called "dark ages" because we didn't know anything about them. He said that is the ONLY reason. The wikipedia link shows MANY reasons for the term, and it is spread among many places. In that link, it shows the reason(s). I know the people back then didn't think of it as the "dark ages," maybe with the exception of Francesco Petrarca. I have read some of Derf's previous posts directed at me, and it seems he isn't "well-rounded" in his education. He had no clue that most, if not all, Christian holidays originated from paganism. I learned that in 7th grade world history. IMO it's closed minded.

I'm always surprised by people's comments when religious faith is the topic. There seems to be such vehemence of feeling on both sides of the argument. My opinion is if you don't believe what someone else believes, so what?


Today, christians are supposed to share the good news. For hours they beat their heads against a wall, as they don't want you to burn in hell for your sins. Every church I have been to within the last 10 years told it's followers to go out "and spread the good news." The so what is "God loves you SOOO much" and "I don't want you to go to hell because I'm supposed to love you too." I don't really know if you get "extra salvation points" for each new "donator" you bring it, but that is definitely what it sounds like.

[This message has been edited by Smiley (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by stephen (+250) 12 years ago
I personally feel religious debates can be quite entertaining. People ruin them however by taking the debate too seriously. You should go in with the thought that if you can learn something, you come out the winner. No one will ever bring a true believer to their faith by beating them in the head with the wrongs of their religious choices.

This being said I would like to comment on some of the information I have read in this debate.

Smiley- Because people have different educational backgrounds it is not alright to call people ignorant. The knowledge they have acquired simply does not cover a particular area of study.

Derf- Don't comment on stuff you dont know about. It really does make you look ignorant, even though you are not.

Wendy-magic underwear

[This message has been edited by stephen (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
I'm going to have to go with Smiley on this one. Although I do believe we can differ in opinion without nasty comments and name calling.

Derf, they weren't called the Dark Ages because we know so little about them. They were called that as they were a time of horrible suffering. The Black Death plague ran rampant for three years killing more people than you can imagine. 40% of the European population died. Entire villages were gone. Cattle were left to roam free. People left their family members behind in an attempt to not also contract the plague and die. It was a horrible time in history.

By the way, the church was entirely in control of people's health before the Dark Ages. After so many deaths the survivors decided it was time to learn to take care of themselves. Thus new schools to learn of medicine came into being.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 12 years ago
Smiley--Gallileo was in trouble with the Church for defying its authority. The Pope who condemned him actually helped him with the mathematics in earlier drafts and knew he was right. The Church authorities told him not to publish to test his obedience. It was on that point he failed and was condemned. Yeah, the "official" line for the ignorant masses may have been Gallileo was wrong but the actual reasons had nothing to do with his theories and everything to do with his unwillingness to submit to authority.

And, again, that came from extensive reading, not a quick scan of the Internet. That's what happens when you spend a half a century with your big nose in a book. I would recommend "Gallileo's Daughters," about his two illegitimate daughters who spent their lives in a cloistered convent for further details. It has a considerable section on the controversy.

The Dark Ages were also called that in contrast to the Classical period that proceeded it, when society was stable enough to allow people to spend time on intellectual pursuits rather than just scrabbling for survival. Between plagues and invasions, folks in Dark Ages were devoting their time to finding food and shelter and had no energy left over for philosophy. Once the economy recovered and stabilized, people could spare time for thinking and behold! we had the Medieval Period.

Oh, and the peeping Tom was a creep. Easy peasy there.
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Posted by Jim Brady (+425) 12 years ago
Christians everywhere will be thrilled to know you are defending them, Jim.

I'm not defending Christians, Bob. Just questioning howdys presumption that because the creep worked in a Christian bookstore, that his actions were somehow related to the environment. Something she made absolutely clear with her statement:

While it is correct to assume that creeps come from all types of people, this bookstore was a Christian bookstore...thus the reason for my title...

If this had happened at Barnes & Noble, this thread wouldn't be here. If it had happened at Deseret Book, I suspect we would be engaged in something similar..
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
I'm sticking with what I said. I'll restate it. The "dark ages" are only (still) called "dark" (by us amateur historians) because we (us amateur historians) know so little about them (historians do).

"Dark Ages" is a fairly dated term that is not commonly used anymore. It's also completely Eurocentric. There were flourishing civilizations in many other parts of the world that we don't even bother to study. There's some indication that European civilization didn't really break out and begin to grow again until it turned outward and began to interact with other cultures. By the way, Edwin Friedman thought that we are in a similar fix in our culture right now.

But let's get back to talking about religion and voyeuristic store clerks!

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1671) 12 years ago
[This message has been edited by Denise Selk (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
He had no clue that most, if not all, Christian holidays originated from paganism. I learned that in 7th grade world history. IMO it's closed minded.


Christian holidays didn't originate from pagan ones. The Church authorities just used established pagan holidays as a way to spread Christianity and make it easier to convert folk. People like the familiar and the Church knew it. The Church just used an already established calendar of events.
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
So Derf, you know you set yourself up by your last reply. People will say you're "in the dark" about things now! Good luck.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Bridgier, it's entirely possible Brian missed your strawman comment.

I didn't miss it, Derf. I didn't see how it applied to the questions I was asking you. Feel free to keep smirking to yourself if it makes you feel superior, though.

You are, after all, my hero. And everything I would like to be.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
So your saying that the christians DON'T still celebrate those holidays?? The origin of Easter, Christmas, and Halloween has nothing to do with paganism, catholics stealing the holidays and giving them christian value to convert? I think that what you explained was the origin of modern christian holidays just like what I was saying.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
Smiley, I don't disagree that during the spread of Christianity, the church adopted certain dates that originally were used for pagan celebrations. I guess I disagreed with your use of the word "originated" which, to me, means that the Church made up holidays to correspond with pagan ones. For the most part they didn't. Instead, they had certain days they wanted to celebrate, such as Christmas or Easter and decided to coordinate the timing of them with the pagan calendar to make them more palatable to the masses. And of course, the masses naturally used some of the pagan symbolism, such as the tree, in their Christian celebrations.

But to my mind, the only holiday they really adopted from paganism is Halloween. And Christians don't celebrate Halloween as a church holiday anyway. In fact, some christian churches deem it inappropriate and discourage their members from celebrating it. The Church instead celebrates All Saints Day on the day after. At least that's my understanding of it.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Brian - you were a Christian. I can't believe that you knew the creator of the universe and how much he loves you, and then decided that wasn't for you. Maybe it was religion (mans attempt/man in charge).


While it would be very simple for me to say that it was preachers like Derf who pushed me away from religion, that wouldn't be entirely honest, Salli. The Derfs of the world don't do a thing to make me regret my decision, I'll tell you that.

It's really quite simple - the reason I no longer have a god-belief is the same as the reason I no longer believe in Santa Claus.

When I was a child, I KNEW with all of my heart that Santa Claus existed. After all, why would my parents and friends lie to me about all the wonderful things Santa did every Christmas?

Not having any concept of the word "anecdotal" or its meaning, I had all the "evidence" I needed to "prove" Santa's existence - all of the presents under the tree on Christmas morning that said, "Love, Santa" on them. Besides, my parents told me that Santa existed. He ate the cookies and drank the milk I left for him. He brought me the very presents I asked for on the list I wrote for him. How could I NOT believe in Santa? There were books and movies and songs all about Santa. Why would there be all these things dedicated to Santa if he wasn't real?

And then, as all children do, I grew up. I realized that Santa Claus wasn't real. It stung at first, but my shock in discovering that Santa was a fictional character didn't last long. It hasn't bothered me for many years that Santa isn't real, just as I'm sure that it no longer bothers you that Santa doesn't really exist. Santa exists for my children, though, and that's fine by me. The thought of Santa brings them happiness and comfort, just as it once did for me.

In my eyes, there is absolutely no difference between Santa and God. God is simply Santa writ large. Just as children are frightened into thinking that they won't get any presents from Santa if they're naughty, so do the religious when it comes to going to hell if they sin and aren't "forgiven." There is no difference.

The thought of there being an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god is very comforting to people who are afraid of the Dark - that is, afraid of the darkness that comes with death. Did the thought of annihilation scare me at first? Of course it did. But then I realized that annihilation is only frightening if one is consciously aware of their state of annihilation. There will be nothing of me to be aware or scared, so why waste time living in fear of it?

As Mark Twain said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." Or, as Epicurus said 300 years before the birth of Christ, "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

Santa "loved" me when I was a child because people I loved and trusted told me he did. But that didn't make it so. So you telling me that God loves me doesn't really win me over, either. Even if I did believe in the same God you do, I wouldn't be able to reconcile so many things that contradict the idea of God's love. I'm not superstitious and I'm not ruled by fear. I fail to see that as a bad thing.
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Posted by stephen (+250) 12 years ago
They didn't celebrate the birth of christ or the death of christ before they incorporated those dates. IT was an adoption. Having a christmas tree, or an easter egg hunt with easter bunnies, is an adoption of pagan symbols.
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Posted by Bruce Helland (+586) 12 years ago
What I never could come to grips with was that with all the Christian faiths available, how can we be sure we are practicing Christianity correctly or does some other variant hold the key?
In other words: As a Lutheran should I be concerned that the Catholic faith holds the key, or vice versa. Or to say any other religion? Thus, it seems to me, any discussion (or debate) only serves to calm our own fears about 'getting it right.'
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Posted by Jon Bonine (+158) 12 years ago
I've heard from various people that Christianity "adopted" Easter. But what evidence do you have for that? Are you arguing from Venerable Bede's understanding of the different months of the year? Or do you have some other basis for this assertion?

If you want to say that Christianity adopted anything in regard to Easter, it would be the Jewish passover.

But Easter eggs and Easter bunnies have nothing to do with the Christian celebration of Easter.

Regarding Christmas, what aspect of the pagan religion still remains? But then again, the "Holiday Season" is becoming "de-Christianized." Consumerism is the cultus of America, more so than Christianity. At least we aren't pretending anymore.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
Jim. I read Howdy's post a little differently. I think she posted because it seems ironic(doesn't it?) that some creep would pull this off in a Christian bookstore. I didn't take her post as an attack on Christianity.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Exactly Bob N., you are 100% correct...
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Jon's right, Easter has always been connected with the Jewish lunar calendar and intimately associated with Passover. There's clear indication through the New Testament the resurrection was celebrated regularly-- even as early as the first week after the resurrection in John's Gospel.

You might also look at some of Justin Martyr's writings from the First Century.

how can we be sure we are practicing Christianity correctly?


I don't know that we can.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by stephen (+250) 12 years ago
The Pagan belief for easter is actually about resurrection as well. This was a common belief among all religions, because spring is all about rebirth. Easter eggs, bunnies, and other symbols are all about fertility. Fertility and rebirth.

Explain to me what the christian standard is for these very pagan symbols.

As I stated previously, I am not here to change any minds. I am here to maybe grow a little from the knowledge I may attain from this debate. I hope you to all grow from our dicussion.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Regarding Christmas, what aspect of the pagan religion still remains? But then again, the "Holiday Season" is becoming "de-Christianized." Consumerism is the cultus of America, more so than Christianity. At least we aren't pretending anymore.


To your question, http://www.seiyaku.com/cu...stmas.html
(wendy, I finally found something other than WIKI!)

And Easter.
http://www.seiyaku.com/cu...aster.html

This isn't any new thing to me, I used these website to bring the information to you, but learning about my religion in depth brought these things to light.


Just so you know also-

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure3, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison4, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church."
- John H Newman, Essay of the development of the Christian Doctrine 1878

[This message has been edited by Smiley (11/4/2009)]
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Posted by Salli (Scanlan) Moore (+81) 12 years ago
Brian - I was raised Catholic. I used to listen to the "Hit Parade" on my transistor radio during my forced attendance at 5:00 mass. I hated being there. I too put God in the same category as Santa and the Easter bunny and all the rest, when they fell from reality. It took an act of God to open my eyes.

Satan is a liar and a thief. He has a counterfeit for everything (to deceive you). So many church's, don't have a clue as to who God is. Playing church just doesn't get it.

God will reveal Himself to anyone who will earnestly seek the truth, then you will know!
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
"Preach faith until you have faith and when you have faith you will preach faith?"

"It's not a lie, if you believe it." - George Costanza.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Salli - You are free to believe what you will. If believing that there is a God in heaven above you gives you comfort, so be it. If the belief that there is a Satan in hell below gives you a focal point to rally against in your personal fight for what's good, more power to you.

As for me, I believe in Satan just as much as I believe in God. That there is evil in the world doesn't prove that there is a Satan. It just reinforces that most people need metaphors to be able to better conceptualize good and evil.

That I don't believe in Satan isn't one of Satan's tricks to lead me "away from God." It simply means that there is not sufficient (any) evidence to prove the existence of either.

Asserting otherwise is nothing more or less than conjecture and anecdotes. It's certainly nothing worth giving my heart, mind and soul to.

Were God to reveal Himself - actually reveal himself - to me, I would believe. But I need to be shown, not told. In other words, Prove it.

Mind you, that revelation would require something other than an event that can't be explained by anyone without an unlimited imagination. Simply attributing the unexplained to the unseen hand of the Almighty will not do. Presents under the tree on Christmas morning don't prove that Santa put them there, after all.

In other words: "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov

I'll believe in Santa when the Polar Express comes and picks me up to take me to the North Pole. But until that time, I continue to say, "Prove it."

Jim. I read Howdy's post a little differently. I think she posted because it seems ironic(doesn't it?) that some creep would pull this off in a Christian bookstore. I didn't take her post as an attack on Christianity.

Bob, you forget that Jimbo knows what Howdy meant better than Howdy ever could. He has that power, you know?

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
From your source, smiley:

Lunar deities have been worshipped by Pagans for thousands of years, but referencing this Pagan almanac is about the closest thing that the Christian Easter celebrations get to any Pagan roots.


What do you think

sanctified by their adoption into the Church.


means?

And then there's more words of wisdom from George Costanza:

It became very clear to me sitting out there today that every decision I've made in my entire life has been wrong.


And Brian, maybe this will give you some insight into your struggles:

http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
Derf,
I only hope that Brian doesn't raise his children without any beliefs in anything.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Kacey, I think how Brian raises his children is his own business...I have a notion that he does an excellent job..

[This message has been edited by howdy (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Kacey - what makes you think for a second that I don't believe in anything? I don't believe in the concept of God. That doesn't mean that I believe in nothing.

If you are too small-minded to wrap whatever grey matter you have around that concept, that's your problem. How I raise my children is not.

Or should I say,

How DARE you make all the assumptions you did about me? How absolutely arrogant!

You have no idea about my life. You know nothing about my family.



Another thing I don't believe in is the utterly ridiculous concept of original sin. You, Kacey, may (or may not) believe that children are in need of forgiveness for being born, but I do not. If you do believe in original sin, then you have far more contempt for children than I ever could.

Or, as Robert Ingersoll puts it: "I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell."

For the record, here is something that I DO believe in:

"You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil - you are inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this a world of morality, peace and joy. Trust yourself." - Dan Barker

And what are you doing replying to my posts anyway? I thought you said you were above all that. Am I not "beyond words" and "not worthy of any more replies" from you?

Do yourself a favor and stick to your word, will you? Being honest, I'm sure, is one of those beliefs you wouldn't think I (you know, the atheist) would be capable of teaching my children. Lead the way, O Moral Arbiter of milescity.com! Or just STFU.

Either way.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago


Credit: www.overcompensating.com (http://www.overcompensating.com/)
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Just because you don't share a Christian Belief, doesn't mean you don't have morals. That's a No Brainer. There are many people who are professing christians, and do awful things. There are also people who are amazing, kind-hearted people who do great things, without any belief at all.

I hope your children are doing well, with someone as intelligent as you are.

MC.com is not the place to try and convert. Brian, I have a question for you. Why do people want you back in the church believing in God?
No one seems to want me back, maybe I'm too far gone. I think they want your brains in the religion again, that's what my dad would have said.

I know this might be hard for some Christians to understand, but I chose this religion after studying Christianity my whole life. Well, I was a christian all my life. Eventually, things started NOT adding up. I'd love to write a book on all the contradictions in the bible, but it would be a waste of time. Those contradictions meant to me that what I believed in my whole life was either written very poorly, or it was just a story. It broke my heart when I realized there was nothing out there that loved me like I had previously thought. Then after much pondering, I realized that just because the bible is flawed, doesn't mean that there isn't a deity out there. The age old, There has to be something out there.

Whether something is out there or not, I believe I'm going to die, be reborn, but not anyway spectacular. I will turn into dust, maybe grow into a tree. MY soul, well, I'm still thinking about that.

Kacey, the "devil" is only as powerful as you give him credit for. I don't believe in it, but I believe people who do give him power.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11757) 12 years ago
Smiley, which path do you follow?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9195) 12 years ago
It's interesting smiley, that your experience will only validate certain other MC.commie's contention that if the whole bible isn't absolutely true, then it's all bunk.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I'm an eclectic wiccan. I have influences from greek mythology that I like to incorporate in my practice.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Bridger, if a scientific study has one flaw, then it is bunk. They throw it out and start again. The bible is definitely more than one flaw *IMO. I don't really care what anyone believes about it.

Chrsitians that are tryting to save the world, those are the people I could talk to for hours about what I believe.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
Smiley - Scientific studies aren't that simple. Neither is religion.
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Posted by Jim Brady (+425) 12 years ago
Bob, you forget that Jimbo knows what Howdy meant better than Howdy ever could. He has that power, you know?

Hah! That's funny coming from the the most expert interpreter of motive that has ever stalked people on this forum!

I read what people write, Brian and I can only assume what their motives are for posting. In this case I assumed howdys motive was to dredge up exactly what has transpired here. It appears that I may have been correct.
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
Smiley,
Why are you telling me about the devil having only the power you give him? I never said anything about the devil. I don't believe in a devil!
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
"Another thing I don't believe in is the utterly ridiculous concept of original sin. You, Kacey, may (or may not) believe that children are in need of forgiveness for being born, but I do not. If you do believe in original sin, then you have far more contempt for children than I ever could."


You had no reason to put me in the middle of this. You're trying to imply that I have contempt for children. I do not. I do not believe in original sin. You're the one who seems to be stuck on these things, not me.
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
Howdy,
I did not comment on whether Brian did a good job raising his children or not. I said I only hoped he didn't raise his children without any beliefs in anything.

The fact of the matter is that CHRISTMAS is coming up. Children like to believe in Santa Claus. They like the Easter Bunny. Whether you have religious beliefs in Christ or not, Santa and the Easter Bunny are part of kids lives. I grew up with neighbors whose parents felt that their children should not believe in anything. That meant they did not let them believe in Santa. Those poor kids were just lost throughout the holiday season.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
Oh no, Kacey, you were the one that brought up the subject of Brian raising his children, therefore all subjects related to that are legit IMO...You cannot attack someone and not expect repercussions...Perhaps being less judgemental might work better for you...I know Jesus recommended it...
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I'm sorry that message was meant for Salli. I apoligize. So many posts blend together.
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Posted by Kacey (+3159) 12 years ago
HOWDY,
Read exactly what I said. Don't put your spin on it.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I did read it Kacey...No spin necessary...You obviously didn't read what Brian wrote initially as he plainly said he had no problem with Santa Claus, etc as beliefs for his children...So stop the judgemental stuff...this was just a discussion about religious viewpoints and you attacked...Plain and simple..Stop the personal attacks...It is easy to remedy...


These were Brians exact words Kacey, so learn to read better next time...

"Santa exists for my children, though, and that's fine by me. The thought of Santa brings them happiness and comfort, just as it once did for me."

[This message has been edited by howdy (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Julie (+420) 12 years ago
I love Brian.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Jimbo wrote:
Hah! That's funny coming from the the most expert interpreter of motive that has ever stalked people on this forum!

That's right ... I almost forgot that it was me who called you an anti-Semite because you don't believe in unlimited support for Israel. And it was me who called you a racist because of the whole McDonald's incident. Silly me!

Kacey wrote:
You had no reason to put me in the middle of this. You're trying to imply that I have contempt for children. I do not. I do not believe in original sin. You're the one who seems to be stuck on these things, not me.

By saying the following ...

Kacey wrote:
I only hope that Brian doesn't raise his children without any beliefs in anything.

... you show that you have contempt for MY children. By even bringing up the possibility of me raising my children with beliefs in anything, you imply that I'm raising my children to believe in nothing. YOU put yourself in the middle of this, and now you're trying to weasel your way out of it.

By accusing Howdy of "putting spin" on what you said, you have accomplished nothing more than a half-assed attempt to distance yourself from your original statement. Show some stones and own up to your own words.

As far as original sin goes, I allowed for the possibility that you didn't believe in the concept. Re-read the paragraph.

Julie wrote:
I love Brian.

WooHoo!
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
JU-LIE!

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/5/2009)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
I'm always confused by people who point out that many Christian celebrations coincide with pagan ones. Sure they do, but so what? That doesn't make them any less meaningful for Christians. It's a wonderful quality that humans have, being able to adapt new ideas into their current culture. It happens all the time.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I wasn't pointing it out AGAIN, it just happened that way. It was the fact that Derf did not know, and made a joke about it like I was lying. Of course, All the adaptations make for some really great holidays. I celebrated easter and christmas as a christian, and I can say it was a great time for fellowship and giving back.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1905) 12 years ago
OK people! What's the consensus? Was the guy a creep or a Christian?
I vote creep. But maybe he's a Christian-creep. It could happen. Maybe he's neither. Maybe he's an agnostic pervert. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Hopefully we'll have the answer by morning.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
He's a creep who happened to work at a Christian book store. Do you really think that everyone who works at a Christian retail store is Christian or that Christians never do creepy things? Sheesh
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I don't even think that all people that profess to be Christians, are really Christians...Color me skeptical...
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
He's a Creepy Creepy Christian, Bob.

There, it's settled.

End thread.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Smiley wrote:
MC.com is not the place to try and convert. Brian, I have a question for you. Why do people want you back in the church believing in God?
No one seems to want me back, maybe I'm too far gone. I think they want your brains in the religion again, that's what my dad would have said.

Thank you for the compliment, Smiley. I apologize for not responding to your question in a more timely fashion, but I'll do the best I can.

Answer #1: This applies to the people in my life (family, mostly) who are Christians and don't like the thought of me being eternally separated from them after this life. My mom and dad want me to be a Christian because they love me. I don't believe it's any more complicated than that.

Answer #2: This applies to the people who may or may not know me personally, but believe that it is their mission as Christians to "save" nonbelievers from damnation.

The people from the first group don't bother me. It's the people from the second category who I could do without.

Okay, NOW end thread.

[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/6/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
It was the fact that Derf did not know, and made a joke about it like I was lying


More like

It was the fact that Derf made a joke about it and I continue to obsess on it months later.

And howdy, just in a spirit of debate and conversation, how do you reconcile these two statements?

Perhaps being less judgemental might work better for you


and this one

I don't even think that all people that profess to be Christians, are really Christians


Maybe this is the thread that won't end, Brian?

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/6/2009)]
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
" Why take the splinter out of my eye, when you have a big log in your own"...I love that quote, and have no idea who said it...My dad used to say that to me when I was too judgemental...


"I don't even think that all people that profess to be Christians, are really Christians"

Derf, the last quote you used wasn't meant as a judgemental statement just a suspicion I have of my fellow man...I don't profess to be a perfect Christian, far from it...I consider myself a "work in progress"...
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3712) 12 years ago
You people should find a more productive hobby.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
LOL, Levi...
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
howdy, the actual quote is more along the line of "why do you notice the speck of dust in other people's eye when you have a log in yours?" Jesus said it in Matthew 7.

So my question is, if

I don't profess to be a perfect Christian, far from it


how do you reconcile that with

I don't even think that all people that profess to be Christians, are really Christians


I mean, wouldn't they just be "not perfect" Christians like you? Or what's the difference?
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
I guess the difference, to me at least, is I try not to wear it on my sleeve and rarely bring up my faith...Some folks slap you in the face with theirs with an air of superiority like it is some kind of exclusive club...I find that obnoxious to be around...Thanks for giving me the source of that quote as I have always loved it...
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Derf, I don't obsess over it. I just remembered when you made another wrong comment. Just because you are in highly respected posistion doesn't mean you will always get the respect you deserve.

Speaking of respect, I don't believe I will respect people who try to shove their religion down others throats. It's a lttle invasive, especially the one's who come to MY HOUSE and MY DOOR.

asdf1234.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
doesn't mean you will always get the respect you deserve.


Think about that, will you? Would that be because you are basically disrespectful, just in general? Or could your "aren't very bright" comment be applicable here also? Or maybe there is some other explanation?

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/6/2009)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
Living in Utah has mellowed my attitude about evangelicals and proselytizing. I used to really become annoyed at the missionaries who interrupted my day or accosted my in the grocery store parking lot. I also rolled my eyes whenever I overheard conversations about "the Spirit" coming to people in their dreams and directing their actions. I have never lived anywhere where religion was so up in my face all the time. But the longer I've lived here (and maybe because of getting older) I've come to look at these events as opportunities to learn more about the people I live among. I overheard a conversation the other day that was very illuminating for me. I don't believe in their doctrine but knowing as much about it and the attendant culture makes it a lot easier to get along.
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Posted by Julie (+420) 12 years ago
I wish more people were as open-minded as you Wendy. The world would indeed be a better place.
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Who gives a crap whether I am respectful or not? I don't have to be respectful of people who don't respect others beliefs, and even crack jokes about it.

I don't go around insulting christians and burning bibles. I respect what everyone believes, but Derf, YOU DON'T.

I really will show up at your church on sunday and do whatever I want, just to show you true disrespect, if that's what you want. I will try to convert all your followers in the middle of your sermon, just to disrespect you. I have been disrespectful of you, but I am not a low person who would actually do that. It would effect others who deserve respect for what they believe.(as do you)

Derf, I believe what I believe and you have your beliefs. Let's just drop our dispute.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
I don't have to be respectful of people who don't respect others beliefs, and even crack jokes about it.


Smiley,

This attitude shows a lack of maturity that is commensurate with your young age. I suspect as you grow older you will come to see the value of showing respect even when you don't want to.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+596) 12 years ago
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey (+272) 12 years ago
lorin, i think that is a creep.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Julie, do you love Wendy?

smiley, you've answered my first two questions in the affirmative. And what dispute?

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/6/2009)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6165) 12 years ago
Huh?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
In a small mid western conservative town, a new bar/tavern started a building to open up their business.

The local Baptist church started a campaign to block the bar from opening with petitions and prayers.

Work progressed, however right up till the week before opening, when a lightning strike hit the bar and it burned to the ground.

The church folks were rather smug in their outlook after that, till the bar owner sued the church on the grounds that the church was ultimately responsible for the demise of his building, either through direct or indirect actions or means.

The church vehemently denied all responsibility or any connection to the buildings demise in its reply to the court.

As the case made it's way into court, the judge looked over the paperwork at the hearing and commented, "I don't know how I'm going to decide this, but as it appears from the paperwork, we have a bar owner that believes in the power of prayer, and an entire church congregation that doesn't."
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Are we off topic or not? At this point I can't really tell.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+14950) 12 years ago
This is MC.com. Of course we are "off-topic".

Now go write a sermon that Julie will love.
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Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
LOL, that was funny Richard!!! Thanks for pepping the topic up a tad...
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
The Authority wrote:
Maybe this is the thread that won't end, Brian?

Methinks you're right, Derf.

:self-flagellates:

Smiley, a word of advice (unsolicited, I know): Don't argue with Derf. He is The Authority. He is the Red Dragon, and we are all just glued to a wheelchair. Derf knows All.

Derf giving a sermon:


The ultimate fate of those who do not accept Derf as The Authority:


[This message has been edited by Brian A. Reed (11/6/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Is it just difficult, or impossible, for you to have an adult conversation, Brian?
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Posted by Hal Neumann (+9919) 12 years ago
>>the "dark ages" are only called "dark" because we know so little about them.

It seems to me that an age can be called Dark not so much because light fails to shine - it's more that people refuse to see the light ; -)
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Brian Said:
a word of advice (unsolicited, I know): Don't argue with Derf. He is The Authority. He is the Red Dragon, and we are all just glued to a wheelchair. Derf knows All.


Well, the people in my life that know Derf say, respectfully, he's a D***** B*g. That's about the nicest thing I've heard about him from people. I don't know what he did to piss a s*** ton of people off, but dang. I'm not talking teenagers either. I'm talking REAL authorities (like in my life, not officers of the law.)

This is why I work in fast food. Nameless job with great benefits! Eventually I will have to join the ranks of name-jobs. Teacher! woohoo.

Ord

[This message has been edited by Smiley (11/8/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
What light are you talking about Hal? I see light everyday, and pretty much every night (figuratively and literally, ad there's tis annoying light that shines in the crack of my window at night.)
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Posted by Nathan Jessup (+48) 12 years ago
Don't mean to hijack this "debate" that's going on but after reading some comments I found this HILARIOUS!!!

This is why I work in fast food. Nameless job with great benefits!


After writing in marijuana thread......

Maybe you just don't see the effects of all your "friends" that do it? How many of them work at Taco John's?


You can't make this stuff up.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
The Authority wrote:
Is it just difficult, or impossible, for you to have an adult conversation, Brian?

It's no more difficult (or less possible) for me to have an "adult conversation" than it is for you to accept anyone else's points of view as being even possibly valid, O' Great and Powerful Red Dragon.

Let's be realistic. You and I both know full well that I'll never even approach your standards. So I'll say that by your measure, it remains impossible for me to have an "adult conversation" with you.

I'll say this: the second you entertain the possibility that you might not be The Authority on every single topic under the sun, I'll gladly stop posting pictures of your proxy posing in front of a projector.

But until that time ... I'll pine away the days, glued to this here wheelchair, wanting nothing more than to finally gain the approval - or even just the tolerance - of you, The Authority, THE Red Dragon. I can only beg your Eminence that you don't feel "compelled" to immolate me.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
I'm thinking impossible.

Also, I'm working to organize a local chapter of the Genteel Speech Society of America. A GSSA chapter is dedicated to teaching polite social discourse, manners, and appropriate speech to young people. Any takers?
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Ah. Good morning, Starshine (Brian says helloooooo).

Have an omelette.

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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Gallagher's? I'll buy.

It is, after all, the dawning of the Age.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/8/2009)]
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
To tell you the truth, Derf, I kind of figured you for a Jimmy Dean sort of fella ...

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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Thanks, Brian. You never showed. Now what do I do with the wheelchair and all this glue and kerosene?
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Wow Nathan. So I made a comment about taco johns employees, not the type of business.

I have always heard on their application there is a box you have to check if your a stoner, because that's all they hire
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
I'll go to your little GSSA mistaking it for a GSA meeting ( I used to be president at my High School)
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
GSA Graduate Student Association (Rice University; Houston, Texas)
GSA General Services Administration (US government)
GSA Geological Society of America
GSA Google Search Appliance
GSA Genetics Society of America
GSA Gerontological Society of America
GSA Glasgow School of Art
GSA General Sales Agent
GSA Government Services Administration
GSA GNSS Supervisory Authority
GSA Global Semiconductor Alliance
GSA GameSpy Arcade (multi-player gaming service)
GSA Geological Society of Australia
GSA Gay-Straight Alliance Network (since 1998)
GSA Georgia Strait Alliance
GSA Governor's School for the Arts
GSA Geological Survey of Alabama
GSA Game Spy Arcade (game utility)
GSA Girl Scouts of America
GSA Group Security Association
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supporter
Posted by howdy (+4944) 12 years ago
got a lot of time on your hands Derf??....LOL
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+584) 12 years ago
Sunday afternoons are killer after the baseball season ends.

(Actually it was a cut and paste job).

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (11/8/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+847) 12 years ago
Aw, I should have been more specific. GSA as in Gay Straight Alliance! I was the president in the 2006-2007 School Year!
I miss the Hollywood Gay pride parade. Why can't we have one of those here?
(don't answer that.)
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6014) 12 years ago
Derf wrote:
Thanks, Brian. You never showed. Now what do I do with the wheelchair and all this glue and kerosene?

I don't know, take your wife out on a date?

Seriously, though ... if I'm going to drive 150 miles to go out for breakfast, it's going to be somewhere other than Gallagher's.
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