PAGANS of Miles City
Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Hey! My name is Shannon Marie and I'm looking for any other people in Miles City who are pagan/wiccan/druid etc. I'm looking to start a meetup group perhaaps for holiday rituals among other things. My husband and I would like to start a group, so if you are interested email me at [email protected]

If you are not any of the above mentioned, but you'd like to know more about a great nature-based religion also send me a message.
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Posted by Heath H (+647) 12 years ago
Does one wanting to join your activities need to plan on wearing special clothes?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
no, i think it will be casual attire unless a person wants to make personal decision to wear something special.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
I believe if we can get a group together, we can celebrate samhain this year. Then Solstice would prolly be next.

Anyone up for a new age Samhain ritual maybe at the river or in a park?
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Posted by Chuck Schott (+1291) 12 years ago
Brian?
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Will there be... fertility rituals?
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Posted by Heath H (+647) 12 years ago
DANG! You beat me to it.
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Posted by Brian A. Reed (+6115) 12 years ago
"God bless those pagans."

- Homer Simpson

A Christian is closer to being a Muslim - or a pagan, for that matter - than I am to being one. I'm neither monotheistic (Christianity, Islam, etc.) nor polytheistic (pagan). I'm an atheist/nontheist.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"spo.milescc.edu"

Is it appropriate to use this kind of email address for religious purposes?
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Posted by Kacey (+3154) 12 years ago
Samhain? I suppose I could look it up. I've never heard of it.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Is she a student?
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1911) 12 years ago
Hey Chuckie! Here's a fertility idol. Sort of reminds me of you.



[This message has been edited by Bob Netherton II (9/21/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
yeah, I'm a student. And I guess using my student email for my religion is better than porn eh? No, there won't be fertility rituals lol. That's funny though. Samhain is halloween, or the day of the dead, or the celtic new year. I wonder who would be interested in the fertility thing though? It does work for some people
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
Hey, how about you lay off the girl eh? do you even realize how much of christianity comes from pagans? Your whole christmas? its a LIE. It is a nock off of yule. Halloween? totally pagan. Easter? You really thought that was a jesus thing? its all about fertillity and rebirth in spring. Come on did you really think mating like rabbits and bunnys on easter were not related? And the eggs? that should be a no brainer. Have any of you even read the bible? jesus was born in late spring early summer.

i mean wow, how bout you dont make fun of pagans, untill you guys straiten out your own religion. go visit your pastor or priest and talk it out. better yet, Go to the college, take intro to religions and realize how fake all of you are. have you forgotten the golden rule? treat others as you wish to be treated.

You will all have noticed by now my display name is pfcmatzick yes i was in the military. I put my life on the line to protect you guys, yet all of you go against the basic principles of our constition. Even your own religion. People have free will.

grow up and let people be themselves. Do as im sure all of your mothers have said to you, if you have nothing nice to say say nothing at all
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Dats wut Im talkin bout homie
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
was that an insult? really? are you getting in to medical school anytime soon? if you are being truthful about that, then cool. Sarcasm is lame though, especially on the web
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
do you even realize how much of christianity comes from pagans?

I guess I must have had the flu the day they convered all that in Seminary.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/21/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Whatever, I was trying to start a spiritual group, but I started a religious debate. Seriously, I wish I was still in California where you could speak your mind without ridicule from the masses. Paganism is great. Christianity is great. Love is great. People on these boards are just too cruel for anyone to stand up and say what they believe in. I feel bad for the kid who read my post, and the others, and will be completely influenced against it out of pure ignorance. TRY RESPECT. I did nothing to any of you.
Man, society SUCKS.
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
Well i guess there is a reason most followers of christianity are "devolopmentally unequal"

[This message has been edited by stephen (9/21/2009)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11978) 12 years ago
I'm pretty sure that while Christmas trees and Easter eggs ARE pagan, the book itself makes no mention of any of that stuff. In fact, for much of history, Christmas was very much a pagan holiday and was frowned on by good Christians. The Puritan settlers of what is now the northeastern United States would have punished you but good for any kind of celebration in late December.

For the record, I'm a well-read atheist who doesn't care if people worship gods or trees, just so they don't try to force me to do the same.

If I were picking a faith, I'd go Jewish. I don't like shellfish, shouldn't eat bacon, and need to have a religion that requires me to clean my kitchen every year!
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
The cross the Catholics do to themselves, its a rite of Odin. Look it up. ( the hammer )
Easter is the celebration of the birth of the God. Look it up.
In the early years, during the crusades, Christians modified Pagan Holidays to make the transition easier. They applied Biblical Knowledge to The holidays. It truth. They probabaly don't teach that in seminary, but the Pastor of my old church, John Stewart, even knew that. Why does it matter?
Is there anyone who wants to join us for a ritual? Please don't post on here if you do, I want no more attacking of ANY religion. IT is illegal to harass someone about their faith, whatever it may be. Just I want to practice my religion with someone else who is a follower too.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Thank you. I appreciate your well informed post. This isn't supposed to be a religious debate. I'm an 18 year old girl trying to practice my faith. I'm a mother and a wife, and a student. I pay my taxes, I abide to the law (most days.) I have many faults like any human. I vote, I have my quirks. Lets just end this. If anyone has anything to say, send it to my e-mail.
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
All right, i forget the close mindedness of those who are raised without options. I truly thank those christians out there who donate there time to helping charities, and community events, You people are great. I am proud of my religion, yet it is wrong to discuss the corruption of younger religions.
I am glad you all have so much faith in your god, yet it sadens me to think no one has an open mind. The thought of a pastor obviously not having gone through any religions class other than his own...or perhaps he slept through that day as well? sickens me. How can you help people with such a narrow point of view?
I'm sorry if we have put any anger into the hearts of corruption, but always remember...The last time christianity ruled the world it was called the dark ages....perhaps are pastor was awake for that class.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
"Well i guess there is a reason most followers of christianity are 'devolopmentally unequal'"

Really, I see no correlation between the two. Goodness sakes.

Stephen, please stop.
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
You are correct, i was just pointing out that they celebrate paganism every year. They think pagan thoughts. Do pagan things all the time, without ever thinking about it.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
One could argue that there are many ideas that don't seem to make it from seminary school to the pulpit, such as the idea that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God. Or do we dismiss the ideas of "liberal" seminaries and only promote those of acceptable, conservative seminary schools?

Richard, I am assuming that you took offense to Smiley's .edu address because you assumed that she was an educator using her position at the college to promote a liberal agenda? It didn't ever occur to you that, like millions of college students, her e-mail address is directed through the school? Egad! A student having the right to pursue the interests she finds inspiring when they are contradictory to Richard Bonine's???? What is this world coming to?
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
Oh, and Ms. Gerber's Intro. to Relgions class rocks!
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
thanks
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
I'm not sure I understand your question, Denise.

And I've not taken Ms. Gerber's class, but I think she rocks!

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/21/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Mr. Derf Bergman,

Are you a pastor of a church? If I am thinking correctly, you are. Now I know you don't like people attacking your religion, so I won't. Hebrews 11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please God, and anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists, and he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
That verse means something to me.
IF my god is a chair I have to have faith. If I'm going to sit in the chair, than I must believe it exists, and further more, know where it is. Then, I get my reward by having a place to sit.
Just saying, the bible can be used as a guide to life, doesn't mean you gotta go to church.

GO SILVER RAVENWOLF.
Does anyone know if I could get into the Religious Column in the paper without being a pastor/minister/priest etc...? And does anyone know who to contact?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Mrs. Gerber is amazing <3 I'm in the end of life issues class.
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
Mrs Gerber is the bomb digitty. Any one who is anyone should take her classes.
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Posted by Shu (+1801) 12 years ago
P.A.G.A.N. (People Against Goodness And Normalcy): DRAGNET - the movie...sorry, seeing PAGANS of Miles City made me think of that.

Smiley - I do support your right to worship as you please, but if you are, in fact, 18 years old...well, have you really been on this Earth long enough to know as much as you apparantly think you do? Worship as you please, of course, but remember this: some knowledge does come from books...other knowledge comes from living life long enough to learn certain lessons books can't teach you...I'm still learning those lessons, myself, and I'm twice your age.

As for you, Stephen, I was actually semi-supportive of Smiley and her quest (still am) to use this thread to help her get a group going...until you opened your yapper in the 14th entry of this thread:

"i mean wow, how bout you dont make fun of pagans, untill you guys straiten out your own religion. go visit your pastor or priest and talk it out. better yet, Go to the college, take intro to religions and realize how fake all of you are. have you forgotten the golden rule? treat others as you wish to be treated."

As some of us (Brian included) already know; name-calling isn't a way to score points here or anywhere else, nor is putting-down other people's faiths as a way to support someone else's...try heeding your own advice, and learn to spell while you're at it.

...and, yes, I have done my own studying, exploring, questioning, reading, travelling, earned 2 college degrees, etc., and have thus come to the conclusion that my faith suits me just fine just as Smiley's suits her.

Good luck to you, Shannon Marie, with your group...again, I support your right to practice your faith as you please.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Thanks, but Stephen Matzick is my husband. Oops sorry baby the truth is out. He's opinionated and pissed off at ignorant people. He loves his faith, and he really can spell, he's going to Med School soon enough. He doesn't care when he's angry. I told him not too, we are on a different page about how to deal with it. I will keep practicing my religion, well I prefer faith as the word. I am educated in more than one way. I graduated from high school when I was 15. My father was 86 years old when he died. I was born 4 days after he turned seventy. I did pick up a lot of his wisdom and intelligence. Anyways, I do know that learning is a lifelong process, and I don't know everything or claim to. I am not an average 18 year old mind you though.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+11978) 12 years ago
No 18-year-old is average. They all think they are wise beyond their years. Then those years actually add up and, whoo, boy, is looking back embarrassing. I was such a mature know-it-all wise-beyond-my-years at 18 I can hardly stand to remember it. Fortunately, it was long enough ago I can barely remember it!

Enjoy growing up and finding out, with every year you acquire, what an idiot you were the year before! I am SO looking forward to being 90 or so and maybe then, I will actually know everything and be wise beyond my years.

For the record, I have a seriously pagan friend. Big time. Can bore you to death with her faith, just like any good Baptist. We chat about her home repair issues and don't bring up religion because she knows I don't believe and also knows that I feel her beliefs are her own business. I truly, sincerely and completely believe that every one is free to believe whatever and however they wish. Heck, pull a Ron Hubbard and make up a religion.

As Linus said, just so long as you are sincere.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
No I'm serious, seriously... seriously
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
Wowee! Miles City sure does know how to put its best foot forward. I'm sure that what everyone meant to say is congratulations on finding something that you find meaningful and inspiring and thank you for wanting to take the time to share with others your knowledge and wisdom (not that any of us will take you up on it you crazy heretic ). As the Dalai Lama might say, age is just a number.

Oops. I forgot. Arrest me now. Surely mentioning a non-Christian icon is worthy of a lashing by the thread police.

Just as early immigrants moved to the American colonies to practice their religion as they saw fit, and in the spirit of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" why do we feel the need to persecute those with whom we do not agree spiritually?

Kudos to you Smiley!
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Posted by Kacey (+3154) 12 years ago
If you want to write a story for the paper, I would suggest that you write it and take it down to the Star. They will be able to read it and see if they want to print it. Good luck.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
So... are you still a catholic Shu?
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Posted by Dan Mowry (+1432) 12 years ago
This all went to the lightning round like clockwork.
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Posted by Joshua Austill (+92) 12 years ago
IF my god is a chair I have to have faith. If I'm going to sit in the chair, than I must believe it exists, and further more, know where it is. Then, I get my reward by having a place to sit.
Just saying, the bible can be used as a guide to life, doesn't mean you gotta go to church.


Hey Smiley, although I agree with your basic premise, you really need to look up the meaning of the word faith. You can not have faith in something that can be proven to exist. I.E., if you can hear it, feel it, see it, smell it, or taste it, it can be observed and proven by observation. A chair is something that you can observe with all 5 senses, it's about as provable as something comes.

When speaking of faith, whether you be a Christian, a pagan, a Jew, or a Muslim, or any other form of religious person, you must apply faith to those things with which there is no proof. If you want to be taken seriously when you make statements about faith, you would be well served to find better examples that don't contradict the meanings of the words you use.

I am a Christian, I believe whole heartily that Jesus died for my sins, and that if you don't believe the same then you might find yourself in hell someday. However, I also believe that it is your right to choose not to believe so and go to hell of your own choice. I would never try to tell you that you have to believe the same way as me.

That being said, God is a being which can neither be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt directly. We could have a very long argument about observing God indirectly, but that goes far beyond the scope of this discussion. The point is, since we can not observe God, we must have faith in order to believe in him/her. There's a BIG difference between having faith in something you can not observe, and a chair that you can touch, taste, smell, and see.

Just my two cents, good luck on your journey!
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Posted by Kacey (+3154) 12 years ago
Wow Josh. I am a Christian too. And your whole paragraph about her choosing to not believe in Christ and going to hell makes you sound a lot like an evangelical. Your own words contradict themselves.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Look Smiley, you have to have faith. If you don't have faith, you just might end up trampled to death by a magic pony fairy* and that would be sad. You should believe what I believe, because I know magic pony fairies love me, and they would never trample any of my friends.

* Please insert a suitable substitute if your pagan tradition venerates magic pony fairies. I'm trying to be ecumenical here, so bear with me.
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Posted by Joshua Austill (+92) 12 years ago
Hey Kacey, how do my words contradict themselves? Jesus said very plainly, I am the way, nobody gets to the father but by me(John 14:6). You either believe what Jesus said or you don't, it's a pretty simple concept. I'm all for freedom of religion, but I honestly believe that Jesus is the way, the only way, period. I am allowed the right to believe so just as you are allowed the right to believe what you wish.

I pointed out my belief so that Smiley could realize where I was coming from, my opinions are subjective to my point of view. It would be unfair to make such a statement about a religious comment without presenting my point of view.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
No one comes to the father except through me, No one takes offense but I don't EVER want to go to your "father." Having read the bible in its entirety in a year, having excepted jesus into my heart when I was younger, having been baptized, I don't think God is the type of person I want to idolize. Again, no offense but that's how I feel. So before you go telling me indirectly I'm going to burn in hell, examine your own life. Read the bible and ask yourself how many times yo didn't do exactly as it said. Or plainly just look up "biblical contradictions." Remember, Christianity is one of the youngest religions.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Stephen and Smiley,

I was pointing out that your understanding that Christianity is really paganism with a Judeo-Christian veneer is tenuous at the very best. I am aware of the all the arguments and I think they are bupkus. Oddly enough, these arguments are usually made by splinter, fundamentalist Christian groups. An understating of the Christian Calendar that is culturally conditioned by post-Christian Era thought and our civil religion, retail oriented mind-set, could only come to conclusions like yours.

The discussion, which you began, would be like me calling you, a self-professing "pagan," a "pre-Christian." That would be ludicrous.
Religious faith, however it is practiced, is never over-against or in comparison. If you are defining your faith in terms of other faith practices, it would seem to me that you missed the point. Your faith, which is YOUR faith, is a heartfelt relationship with your creator/higher power.

To tell others, who go about living their faith in a different way than you do-- that they are really just unenlightened members of your own order of belief-- smacks of Gnosticism, fundamentalism, even religious imperialism of the worst sort. We already have enough of that around.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
if you don't believe the same then you MIGHT find yourself in hell someday.

Thanks, Josh. At least you allowed some room for doubt.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/22/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Which is good, because even with faith there is doubt. True Story.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
I love an argument where I get to be on both sides - Smiley, I don't think the neo-paganism that you're practicing is exactly historically accurate, so I'm not sure if your "youngest religions" comment is really relevant. No religion is practiced in a vacuum of course, and practices change and evolve in relation to external influences - but "paganism" of the type you're discussing has a rather large break in continuity of practice.

Unless of course you've got plans to start filling the local bogs with human sacrifices - in which case you might want to contact Joe Whalen - he may be able to give you a list of miles city residents for whom strangulation may be the best means of keeping the floodwaters at bay.
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
I could nominate a few...
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Let's start with BigDryBug.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
religious freedom act of 1978. Please, If I'm going to practice my religion I'm Going to do it as I please. Some of you don't even realize how offensive it is to see a "jesus loves you" sticker on your car. Christianity is always pushing people to join. Please stop. Please stop trying to convince me I'm wrong. I don't go around screaming JESUS doesn't EXIST!!!! I don't tell you what its about, because I don't personally care what you believe. I want to associate with everyone, but I'd like to start a place to WORSHIP.


GRRRR
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
Smiley, I support your right to start your group and I hope you are successful...
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
thank you
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Not trying to attempt to have the last word or anything, but on close review of this thread, you might find the only attempts to convince anyone they are wrong came from your household. This happened long before Joshua Austill tried to consign you to hell. Just sayin'

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/22/2009)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Not trying to attempt to have the last word or anything, but this:

"Some of you don't even realize how offensive it is to see a "jesus loves you" sticker on your car."

is just as ridiculous as certain other mc.commies who believe that the mere acknowledgment that other faiths exist is, by definition, oppression. The idea that religious freedom is somehow predicated upon the freedom from all other competing faiths or philosophies is a sine qua non of fundamentalism.

Good luck with your group.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (9/22/2009)]
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
I never insulted anyone's religion. i stated that people who follow a specific religion tend to have certain tendancies. i appologize for this i acted rashly out of anger.

Though i do not belive in christianity i believe it has equal footing with all religions..for the most part...some are well....

anyways, whether you belive in one god or 3 million, the basics of religion generally teach you to be good and don't screw over your neighber. These are good solid beliefs. I find it hard to believe that in an infanite amount of time and space there can be only one answer. there is no true way to know who is right and wrong untill we die.

again i apologize to those of you i offended, i will not try to make it up to you, but i will try to be more understanding of the way other people think, behave, and react.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"Richard, I am assuming that you took offense to Smiley's .edu address because you assumed that she was an educator using her position at the college to promote a liberal agenda? It didn't ever occur to you that, like millions of college students, her e-mail address is directed through the school? Egad! A student having the right to pursue the interests she finds inspiring when they are contradictory to Richard Bonine's???? What is this world coming to? "

Getting your exercise by jumping to conclusions, I see.

-I did not take "offense".

-I was just making sure that what is good for the goose also applied to the gander.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
I'm just trying to keep up with you Richard, as you've passed me by leaps and bounds.

The quote,

"Is it appropriate to use this kind of email address for religious purposes?",

does not seem like an innocent inquiry to me. An innocent inquiry would have been, "Are you a student or staff member?". The answer to that question could have taken you in an educated direction from there. If you had factored in the possibility of her being a student, what could have been inappropriate about her using her .edu?

I see neither goose nor gander in the equation.

[This message has been edited by Denise Selk (9/22/2009)]
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
Never mind.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
It's better that way.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
Who knew it was the retail view of Christmas and Easter that was being held against Christians.

It's all starting to make sense now. Retailers are the real persecutors.

http://www.telegraph.co.u...-hood.html

Any practicing Jedi in the house?

[This message has been edited by Rick Kuchynka (9/22/2009)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
500,000? Wow! Impressive.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Your powers are weak, Jedi.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1911) 12 years ago
Is there a gathering place for Rastafarians in Miles City, mon?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Wow, if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
Josh: "I am a Christian, I believe whole heartily that Jesus died for my sins, and that if you don't believe the same then you might find yourself in hell someday. However, I also believe that it is your right to choose not to believe so and go to hell of your own choice. I would never try to tell you that you have to believe the same way as me."

First of all, why would a God who made man in the image and likeness of him or herself, banish or punish him or herself. God is in every living being - why would God punish itself? Perhaps the concept of Jesus dying for your sins was gravely misunderstood. Anyone who truly looked at his life (and all of the books missing from the Bible that include the years of his life that were ironically banished from the "King James" version - who was King James - oh yeah a KING who wanted to control the masses - see if you can find the book of Thomas anywhere - you'd be amazed at what Jesus did) would see that he was trying to show people how to live - something humanity still hasn't grasped - including the supposed followers. He was trying to metaphysically show us how the universe works and how we can make heaven or hell right here on earth. So far, the masses of humanity have truly managed to do a fine job at hell - now can we start working on heaven please?
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
Shella, there are many misconceptions in what you're saying. The most blatant being that King James had anything to do with the composition of the bible.

The canon as it stands today was chosen at least 1200 years before the KJV was translated. And more modern non-KJV translations don't rely on the King James translation at all.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
No one likes to live in fear - so why subscribe to any religion that promotes it? The promotion of fear in religion, has been abused by politicians and governments, all over the world. Control of the masses is what they get - we ignorantly pass laws that restrict our rights because someone sold us some fear on a platter. The word faith means to believe without proof - why is it that we pass laws that restrict people - without having faith that perhaps the people WON'T harm anyone? Examples of a few affecting the masses. Fear = ignorance. Ignorance = not informed. Thus fear = not informed. Fearing hell? Using hell to control someone else? Why does it matter what others do? Why this desperate need for control? The land of the free is a misnomer. Why would those in power want to control you? Why are they afraid of an informed public? What do they have to lose? Do they really think that they would not have what they need to survive and thrive if the masses were informed? Why perpetuate this lack mentality?
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
"The canon as it stands today was chosen at least 1200 years before the KJV was translated. And more modern non-KJV translations don't rely on the King James translation at all."

Yes - and there have been "men" who have taken books out - why would they do that? Have you read the book of Thomas? The book of Judas was just discovered. Clearly the masses don't have the entire story.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
So anything that was written by anyone should be included in the Bible? Should there be a Gospel According to Rick? Think of the possibilities.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
Exactly - that goes for the ones that were included as well. Why would the "official" Bible ignore the childhood and young adult ages of Jesus? If he was special - wouldn't he have always been that way? Then again, our society dismisses the opinions of children as unimportant - not mature - when they have more recently arrived from source than the adults who are tainted by world views. Children do not come as blank slates - they come with full light and love. It is life on this planet that dulls that light, our laws, our religions, our authoritarian structures, crushing the natural spirit in every single one of us. Turning us into slaves who think we need someone else to reconnect us with that which we already possess had we not allowed outside forces to squelch it. It creates a society of "children" according to man's definition: needy, incapable of taking care of themselves, etc. - it's spiritual immaturity that we create. We all come to this earth powerful and connected to our source - we need to do what we can to preserve that God-given light - by not throwing fear into the mix.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
It's not a matter of subject matter. It's a matter of whether the church regarded them as authentic.

If documents dated around the 4th century were regarded as inauthentic by the 4th century church, you've got an uphill climb arguing two thousand years later that you know they were authentic.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
I think you're missing my point entirely.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
I'd argue you're missing the point. What part of (Biblical) Christ's teachings would lead someone to be 'crushed' into some sort of cog in the capitalist wheel?

Christ's message is very counter to our culture. I know, it's difficult to see because we Christians don't walk the walk. But every time I think about people saying Christianity is about social control (which happens all the time) it's clear to me they don't really understand what Christ is all about.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
Christianity ISN'T about control - that's my point. THE CHURCH misinterprets Jesus and throws control into the mix. If hell is part of the package - I want no part of it. Jesus didn't sell hell to the masses - the Jewish "old testament" did. Jesus had faith in all people - Jesus did not try to control people - Jesus loved all people - OUR CHURCHES AND OUR SOCIETY do not promote this. If they did - there would be no prisons, no compulsory education (why are we afraid they can't learn without a school building?), the list could go on forever. However, I need to sleep now because it's late.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Christ may not be about social control, but Christianity, throughout most of its history has been ALL ABOUT social control - which is one nice thing about being a Christian living in the post-christian age: while the authoritarian temptations still exist, society as a whole isn't willing to be the partner it used to be.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
You haven't lived in California lately.....
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Pockets of constantinianism will always exist... but the western world is moving into a period where christiandom is not the default anymore.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
Great! Let's start a Center for spiritual living shall we?!
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
Well I guess you're right in that Jesus didn't 'sell' hell. He offered his life in order to rescue us from it.

But you can't say Jesus never mentioned hell. He warned about it many times.
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Posted by Rick Kuchynka (+4458) 12 years ago
Bridgier, Man is all about social control. Whatever power structure is in place, it will always strive for social control because of the nature of power and man. It usually doesn't matter if there's a cross on the placard or a hammer and sickle.

The failure is mankind's, not Christianity's.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"Jesus loved all people - OUR CHURCHES AND OUR SOCIETY do not promote this. If they did - there would be no prisons, no compulsory education (why are we afraid they can't learn without a school building?), the list could go on forever."

Love without justice is nothing more than sentimental charity. Justice without love is retribution.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Absolutely Rick - I forgot that Christianity primarily consisted of friendly talking wombats, and not people. I guess I need to get to church more.
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
"It's not a matter of subject matter. It's a matter of whether the church regarded them as authentic.

If documents dated around the 4th century were regarded as inauthentic by the 4th century church, you've got an uphill climb arguing two thousand years later that you know they were authentic."


I think what Shella is trying to communicate is that, far from what is being implied here, the acceptance of the canon (yes over 1,200 years ago) was far from being universally agreed upon. There were plenty of Christians who fully believed that other books were to be accepted as Scripture, and in contrast, books that eventually made it into the canon were rejected by church leaders in different parts of the church, sometimes for centuries. There was never a final decision accepted by every church in the world. There have always been some churches in some countries that have slightly different canons of Scripture. The current canon of 27 books didn't even get ratified by a church council of any kind until the 16th century. Various Christian groups throughout time have had books that they considered sacred Scripture, but that were not included in the final canon, including the Gospel of Thomas, The Acts of Thecla, Third Corinthians, and many, many others. Not until the end of the 4th century did anyone of record indicate that he thought the New Testament consisted of the 27 books we have today.

Fierce debate continued for centuries, which is known from manuscripts of the 5th century and before which list others as (since dismissed)canonical books.

The point of all of this, I think very obviously, is that humans decided which books to include in the canon, and which books to toss aside. For no other reason (although there are many), this act alone necessitates the understanding that the Bible is a very human book, with all of the imperfections that suggests. The Bible was not handed down from on high. It was a human process containing human decisions that assembled the books into the canon recognized by most today.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
the church

Which church would that be? As Denise noted, numerous branches of Christian belief have different sets of books that are canonical. The Catholic church has a different set then most Protestant churches - Oriental Orthodox have a different list than Eastern Orthodox, etc, etc. "The Church" isn't nearly specific enough to be a useful in this discussion.
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Posted by Joshua Austill (+92) 12 years ago
Very well said Denise!!

Shella, accusing me of trying to control the masses is quite offensive when I very directly and clearly stated that I believe other people have the right to believe whatever they choose. I said very clearly that I would never tell someone they had to believe the same way as me. I have have done no attacking in this thread whatsoever, I have merely expressed my beliefs. The Jesus I follow would have me love you no matter what you belief, do, or say. Since your being completely mean and rude, I must admit that a tough one today!!!

Smiley, if you think being told that someone loves you is offensive, then I would seriously recommend that you take a good, hard look at what you consider offensive. I'm no believer in the flying spaghetti monster, but seeing the "The flying spaghetti monster loves you with all his noodly appendages" bumper sticker certainly isn't offensive, and indeed it's a good laugh! You talk about everybody respecting each others belief, but you certainly do NOT practice that yourself with your attacks on my beliefs. Once again I will repeat myself, you can belief whatsoever you choose and I will respect that and not say anything bad about it, so please, quit attacking my faith!
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
" you haven't lived in California lately."
True that. I think everyone that posts on Miles City.com needs to try it there for a year.
I can almost guarantee there will be no more religious/racial prejudice
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6172) 12 years ago
Oh please. Are you saying that no one in California is racist or prejudiced? Ever heard of of Proposition 8?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Well, In my personal opinion, Jesus is DEAD. He died over 2000 years ago. What happened after is no concern to me. I just don't like that someone is trying to convince others, including myself, that Jesus loves me. I don't believe that and I NEVER WILL. Jesus did not know me. Jesus does not know me. GOD, Maybe, but I will definitely NEVER BELIEVE that jesus, dead for 2000+ years, loves me. I know there is free speech, and that's the point. It seems evangelical people don't understand, certain people will never agree with you. Stop trying to conform the world.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Yes, I'm very sad over proposition 8. I grew up in southern California. 17 years I was there. I'm not saying there isn't racism and prejudices, I'm saying, they way people express it here would NOT FLY there. If there was any culture in this town, maybe more than just a couple you can count on your fingers, things would be better. I don't believe you can make judgments on someone without actually living side by side with them on a daily basis.

Someone needs to make a multi-cultural fair. Maybe like the multi-cultural club at MCC could do an event for the town.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
California is not as forward thinking as you might like to think. I moved there thinking they were, what I found was a police state. Racism and classism is alive and well in California - especially Southern California.

In regard to the comment Rick made about justice needing to happen - what about the tribal cultures that never had police, never had prisons, and never punished their people - they chose instead to communicate, show the person love and compassion (meeting whatever need it was that was missing) and working together as a group? There are cultures in Africa that still operate in this fashion. Retributive justice has only exacerbated the ills of the world. If you get justice for one - you end up causing a hurt for another (the family of the one prosecuted) - it's a never ending cycle that does NO ONE any real good. Justice doesn't take away how you feel or your own thought patterns. Only YOU can change that.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
As far as the definition of "The Church" - there are the original founders of organized religion who used their religion to control the masses. There are also an unbelievable amount of variations of Christianity - which opens up an entirely different conversation as to why one God needs so many different rules. I could care less - as far as I'm concerned, everyone is on the path that is right for them at this point in their lives. All I care about is when they use their views to control others. THAT is offensive to me. Inflections and word choices, Josh, are what insinuate controlling behavior. Assuming that others will go to hell for not believing your world view is not accurate - their world view may not align with yours and your implication that they will be "punished" for not agreeing to your world view is insulting to them. Yes you said they could choose - you also said they could choose to go to hell - who said they believed in hell?

My MAIN point is that separation of church and state has been horrendously blurred in this country - and it needs to be revived.
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Posted by Shella Zelenz (+59) 12 years ago
Somebody needs to update the clock/time reporting on this thing: Example - right now it's 1:07 - then look above to see what time it posts.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"My MAIN point is that separation of church and state has been horrendously blurred in this country - and it needs to be revived."

Yes, and separation of church and state needs to apply to pagans as well as Christians. Don't misrepresent my worldview and I won't misrepresent yours.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Yes, and separation of church and state needs to apply to pagans as well as Christians.

Again - you are insane. How many professing pagans do you see running for elected office?
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
humans decided which books to include in the canon, and which books to toss aside. For no other reason (although there are many), this act alone necessitates the understanding that the Bible is a very human book, with all of the imperfections that suggests. The Bible was not handed down from on high. It was a human process containing human decisions that assembled the books into the canon recognized by most today.

I'm not sure this is an accurate understanding of the conciliar principle. Your understanding of the process, one that is secular and historical in orientation, is still foreign to most church circles. I don't apologize for that, nor am I being critical of it, it's just the way it is (and was). They might say it is a very spiritual process, one that can (and was and will) easily be corrupted by human interference, but still divinely, though imperfectly, guided.

THE CHURCH misinterprets Jesus and throws control into the mix.

Is this, and other statments you have made based on some experience you have had or on some or your operative mythology? It seems to me that your MONOLITHIC, CONSPIRACY, AND CONTROL superstitions about the church and Christians lend themselves to some inaccurate beliefs.

Just a question: any group has some sense of conformity to norms. Christianity is one among many. Maybe you like to do whatever you damn well please and just don't like to conform. If that is so, why don't you just say that rather than acting like there is some vast control conspiracy around you?

My experience with the overwhelming majority of people who struggle to be Christian is that they have a pretty good handle on applying Neibuhr's Serenity Prayer to their lives. You might want to take a look at it yourself.

Bridgier is spot-on right with many of his observations about the Post-Modern, Post-Christian world we live in. Loren Mead's "Once and Future Church" and Hauerwas and Willimon's "Resident Aliens" woke me up to this new reality some years ago. Both books are somewhat dated new, but I've been living in a brave, new world since reading them.

I'm wondering if some of Shella's comments might've been accurate and even prophetic in another time and place. Spoken in 2009 they simply sound archaic and foreign.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Elaborate on this "people who struggle to be Christian" thing. Is that like getting a blow job in the crapper at the airport?
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Posted by Joshua Austill (+92) 12 years ago
Thanks for the book suggestions Derf, on order, amazon rocks, 2.63 for both
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Posted by Tony Manero (+105) 12 years ago
Sorry, I know this is way late and kind of off topic but I have to address one little thing.
Stephen: Yes, you were in the military. But no, you did not put your life on the line. And were released prematurely for being AWOL. (Absent without leave) Don't pretend.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
And with a single post, Tony has increased the conweb potential of this thread by an order of magnitude.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
I have no idea who Stephen is, but that's f*ckin' righteous, Tony.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Rick, neither did you... but continue to tell us that those fellas are in harm's way to protect our freedom.

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
"I'm not sure this is an accurate understanding of the conciliar principle. Your understanding of the process, one that is secular and historical in orientation, is still foreign to most church circles. I don't apologize for that, nor am I being critical of it, it's just the way it is (and was). They might say it is a very spiritual process, one that can (and was and will) easily be corrupted by human interference, but still divinely, though imperfectly, guided."

This "secular and historical" approach to the examination of the Bible is certainly not new news. Scholars throughout universities and Protestant mainline seminaries have been teaching this approach to the Bible for quite some time now. If it is a failure of the preacher to bring this information from the seminary to the "church circles", I am not sure how to address this disconnect. It is a message parishioners may be very interested in hearing if given the chance. I do not disagree at all that the original process of choosing the canon may have been divinely inspired. However, much can be made of the idea that if God was making sure his followers had the inspired books of Scripture, and only those books, nothing more and nothing less, then why was there such intense debate and discord over hundreds of years? Surely God would have been able to speed up the process and eliminate the need for disharmony amongst his followers.

It is the admission that, though perhaps a spiritual process, it was still a human process corrupted by human interference, that I believe those struggling with their Christianity are willing to accept. The devotional approach in the inerrant word of God is what is driving away the masses. If I don't believe that the Bible is infallible, then how can I be convinced that it is acceptable to create legislation that is based on the very same? I can't, thus the dilemma. Can I believe in God, without believing that the Bible is absolute? Yes, and that is the way, in my humble opinion, most who are questioning their faith are leaning.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Could somebody call Mr. Selk and tell him that his wife is here, possibly in need of a stoning?

The Bible is awesome

[This message has been edited by Buck Showalter (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Gerald T Stack II (+10) 12 years ago
Just read a little of this religious discussion by some bonehead pagans. Stephen, with his goofy lecture on how Christianity stole everything from Paganism was really funny.

Did these ideas come from California? I know most crazy ideas originate there. Well, admittedly, we have some crazy ideas here in Florida also.

You Pagans or whatever you are, need to quit crying for equal billing. You are a minority. Get used to it!
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
It's good to know that Gerald's god has a bigger penis than Stephen's.

It is interesting how little knowledge there is in the pews about how the protestant bible came to be. There's nothing more amusing (to me at least) than hearing someone say "we need to get back to an authentic, first century faith" - you mean, one without a concept of a trinity and readings from the Secret Gospel of Mark?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
WOW, hey Tony, did you forget to discuss how awful the unit is here about organization? How they changed dates and couldn't even pick up the phone to inform the soldiers? At any time Stephen could have been deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan, New Mexico, etc. He signed up his life, and just because of THIS UNITS CIRCUMSTANCES, he was discharged. Wow. JUST WOW.

Can the webmaster just delete these posts. YOU GUYS ARE F*ING AWFUL!!!!
I hate miles city and I'm glad there are a few good people here.

AWFULNESSS
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
a
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Posted by stephen (+256) 12 years ago
tony: technically you are correct, but you are way off base with your comment.

I missed a drill due to bronchitus, after many failed attempts to reach my chain of command to inform them i gave up.

Durring the drill i was absent they changed the drill date for the next drill and i missed that drill because the same chain of command failed in there responsiblility to keep there soldiers informed of changes,(i had even went to the unit and talked with the attending ncos) with no info given about the change of date.

take what you will from this, but i see it as an equal mess up, as do the people involved so if you will mind your own business that would be awesome.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Hey, Wow, well at least he's knows about his religion.
Anyway.
I'm starting a pagan meetup group. It will be ecclectic and all paths are welcome. I won't reveal the location unless you a really interested. I don't doubt it of the people of Miles City to start a witch hunt, pitchforks and all. I want us to be able to practice our faith freely, which we will. Anyone interested can E-Mail me at [email protected]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
As to your comment of being the minority, who cares. Whites are the minority in California, big deal. We do have equal rights. We are just as equal as a Christian.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Ralph Dukart would've called.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Denise, it seems like you are arguing with an "inerrant" or "infallable" view of the Scriptures, neither of which I hold or teach. You're kind of preaching to the choir on that one. There are many churches who agree with the views you are expressing. Maybe you ought to look around and begin to participate in one that does? Just asking.

At the same time, most of us understand the Scriptures as holy. Now that doesn't mean God does not speak through other sources. And there is plenty of the unholy in the books of the Bible. But like it or not, agree with it or not, the Bible is our book. It makes us who we are. You don't have the church without the book, just as you don't have the book without the church.

What I was saying in my previous post is that you have an oversimplified understanding of the conciliar principle as it has been practiced in the history of the church and as applied to the canon of scripture. while "The DaVinci Code" and other novels, and even some so called "historians" and "biblical scholars" are provocative and entertaining, I would advise you to be cautious about calling them accurate or authoritative.
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Posted by Tony Manero (+105) 12 years ago
Yes, He would've. And so would have, and did, his 1st line leader, and platoon sgt, and readiness NCO.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
If the Scriptures are not the inerrant, infallible, and plenary Word of God, then they are irrelevant, there is no name by which man can be saved and we should stay home on Sundays watching the Simpson's and drinking beer.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Denise Selk (+1665) 12 years ago
Buck, Mr. Selk has no want nor need to muzzle his wife.

Rev. Bergman, at no time have I suggested that you hold an inerrant view of the Bible and I don't believe I am preaching to the choir.

Here is the dilemma, in a nutshell:

If I do not believe in the infallability of the Bible, let's for example say because I believe in Evolution, then what am I to make of the argument, for instance, that homosexuals be denied the same legal rights of heterosexuals because homosexuality is a sin? (I use this argument as one example only because it is a timely topic; I could pick many other examples).

How can I pick and choose from the Good Book what to believe and avow and what to disregard? This is my personal struggle.

Again, as I stated I don't believe that I am addressing the choir at all. The choir would not be telling me that legislation by the government should be entertwined whatsoever with what is or is not a sin in the Bible.

As I have never read "The DaVinci Code", I will have to leave that comment alone. I am not sure how you would have any insight into whether my understanding is oversimplified or not. Certainly what I have posted I have tried to keep as pithy (for all of you Bill O'Reilly enthusiasts) as possible, as my posts tend to get long-winded as it is. But thank you for advising me to be cautious in my endeavors. I will keep that in mind.

"...the Bible is our book. It makes us who we are. You don't have the church without the book, just as you don't have the book without the church.". That is one of the most inspired ideas I've encountered today. Perhaps that is the answer. Scrap the book and the building and get back to the basics of a personal relationship with the Higher Power. Hmmm.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
The bible is not a binkie Richard. Most of the tenents of "orthodox" faith are derived as opposed to described anyways - so you're already bringing a hermanutical lens to the supposed "inerrant" text.

If it were all of the things you describe, it would be a lot easier to understand: God could have just given us bullet points and we wouldn't have needed 2000 years of burning this guy for being a monophysite, and drowning that guy because he's a Cathar, we could have been going to the One True Church Of Easily Understood Tenets.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
And I thought we were saved by Jesus and not by certain propositions we hold about the Bible. Live and learn.

And a lot of people do attend their own version of the One True Church Of Easily Understood Tenets.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/23/2009)]
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Buck, Mr. Selk has no want nor need to muzzle his wife.

Well, communication about that sort of thing is very important in a marriage.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Don't make me get biblical with these rocks
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
If I do not believe in the infallability of the Bible, let's for example say because I believe in Evolution, then what am I to make of the argument, for instance, that homosexuals be denied the same legal rights of heterosexuals because homosexuality is a sin?

It seems to me that you are mixing scientific, legal, social, and moral issues all together, and then saying there are no biblical and theological answers to the questions because the only possible religious point of view is fundamentalism, with which you disagree. So you've painted yourself into a corner and then . . . what? I'm actually trying to help here.

Scrap the book and the building and get back to the basics of a personal relationship

Uh, I said book and church, not book and building.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"And I thought we were saved by Jesus and not by certain propositions we hold about the Bible."

We are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus. And we know and believe this because of God's inerrant, infallible, and plenary Word.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
That's a circular argument with absolutely no way in the door, Richard. Thus it is exclusivist by nature and in direct opposition to the Gospel. Not exactly a Christian apologist, are you?

Let me restate your argument: belief is a requirement for believing. Thus you cannot believe because you do not meet the prerequisites of belief.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/24/2009)]
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3707) 12 years ago
Totally unrelated question. Is your name really Derf? I always assumed you just spelled Fred backwards for your username but then I heard your name on the radio. If so I think that's the first time I've heard that one.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
Well, you know what they say Derf - "That question's not going to beg itself"...
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Posted by Tucker Bolton (+3704) 12 years ago
WOW! yet another thread about whose got the biggest invisable friend.
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
this always seems to boil down to a "mine is bigger or better than yours" argument...To argue about it seems so silly as most of your arguments require some type of faith...If the person you are arguing with has no faith in your beliefs then why on earth are you wasting your time arguing?? Giant waste of time IMO...
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
My God is made up of all your puny little gods - he's pretty much the God that is God of God. It's hard to wrap your head around, I know.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"That's a circular argument with absolutely no way in the door, Richard. Thus it is exclusivist by nature and in direct opposition to the Gospel. Not exactly a Christian apologist, are you?

Let me restate your argument: belief is a requirement for believing. Thus you cannot believe because you do not meet the prerequisites of belief."

That is not at all my argument. My argument is about the inerrancy of scripture. You don't apparently share my belief on this point. I don't understand why you would fancy yourself as an apologist for a book that you have doubt about its veracity. I don't understand how one builds a system of belief on cherrypicked biblical statements.How do know which parts are true?

It is ironic to note the correlation between the decline of mainline denominations and the increasing proclamation of the historical critical view of scripture. A church founded on such beliefs become nothing more than a service organization that is about what I can do for God to earn my way to heaven, rather than about what God has done for me, a sinner, through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But if that works for you, so be it.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
"this always seems to boil down to a "mine is bigger or better than yours" argument...To argue about it seems so silly as most of your arguments require some type of faith...If the person you are arguing with has no faith in your beliefs then why on earth are you wasting your time arguing?? Giant waste of time IMO..."

This theory applies to a lot of things, church, politics, football, beer, etc. Doesn't seem to stop us though, does it.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (9/24/2009)]
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6172) 12 years ago
You forgot penises.
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
for Wendy:

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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
yet another thread about whose got the biggest invisable friend.

I had an invisible friend whan I was a child, He always went across the street and played with the neighbor kids. That's always bothered me.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/24/2009)]
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
I don't understand how one builds a system of belief on cherrypicked biblical statements.

Really? Try looking in a mirror.

But then I've never actually seen you make a post that is Biblical. They're always about what you believe ABOUT the Bible. It's a not an object of worship, Richard, It's THE guidebook for Jesus followers.

I never claimed to be an apologist for the Bible. I simply pointed out that you ARE NOT an apologist for the CHRISTIAN FAITH.

Funny how you wouldn't touch a mythological understanding of faith with a ten foot pole, but then you swallow contemporary mythology about "mainline churches" (whatever those are?) hook, line, and sinker.

rather than about what God has done for me, a sinner, through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ

Even funnier, the Bible I've been reading says God did that in Christ for EVERYONE, not just for you. I must need to find me an authorized version. Then I can cherry-pick the CORRECT verses.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/24/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Bible:reliable::Wikipedia:reliable
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
Derf, what denomination is your church...You sound like a pastor I could definitely agree with...
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
There are aliens with crazy laser weapons that can wipe out planets instantly. They worship this some different God. As of now, he's the one to pick.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3707) 12 years ago
Bible:reliable::Wikipedia:reliable

Smiley,

I don't think that comparison is going to make the point you are trying to make:

http://news.cnet.com/Stud...97332.html
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Hmf. Defeated again lol. I'm just saying the bible has a lot in it from random sources, as does wikipedia.
I mean there is also a lot missing from the bible

Does derf burn bibles? I actually had this lady burn my bible because it wasn't KJV it was NIV and she told me that what was in mine was wrong??? I believe she was a pentacostal, but she really scared me the wrong way.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Howdy, I'm a United Methodist pastor with a lovers quarrel with the church.

Does derf burn bibles?

Maybe I should rethink my involvment with milescity.com.

[This message has been edited by Derf Bergman (9/24/2009)]
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
I've never been a methodist, but I have been baptist, non-denom., and catholic. I've been to a mormon church and a pentacostal church.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
Derf: are your parents Paul and Ellen?
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
Was reared a Methodist and then converted to Episcopalian (because of my boarding school which was church affliated)...Love the singing in the Methodist churches tho...what is the name of your church Derf?
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Posted by Monet (+169) 12 years ago
Smiley is nothing but a lying stealing fraud.. And here is why; She sits here and preaches the bible, can quote verses from it and pretends that she is some type of "good citizen." But here is one of her quotes "My father was 86 years old when he died. I was born 4 days after he turned seventy." So ok then she was 16 then he passed correct? Not even 4 months ago she was on milescity.com trying to get money from the good hearted people of miles city to fly to California to attend her father's funeral that was set 6 weeks in advance. She is 18 now. So that tells me that her father passed away 2 YEARS ago and she just now wants to attend the funeral?? What a joke.
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Howdy, the church where I'm serving is called

First United Methodist
24 North 11th Street
Miles City, MT

Sorry, our website is down.

Richard, I'm not related to Paul and Ellen, except maybe distantly and anciently. My ancestors were midwestern and moved across Ohio, then to Indiana, and then settled in Illinois.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
http://milescity.com/foru...fpid=87902

Another thread that will end in tears and mug shots...
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
So maybe she wants to do pagan fertility rituals to raise some cash.
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3707) 12 years ago
Nice catch . So was this whole thread a troll? If so it was masterful.
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Posted by Bridgier (+9307) 12 years ago
I guess it just goes to show that you can't trust anyone who doesn't have Jesus in their hearts...
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Posted by Tony Manero (+105) 12 years ago
Holy snap. This thread really does make my day. The lies and allegations don't stop at just a plane ticket either! Public records have a lot to say as well!
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Hey, guess what. Look it up, MY father died august 09, 2007 At jerry lee pettis hospital in Loma Linda, CA. His wishes had been to donate his body to science. So, his body went to the cadaver program at Loma Linda University for 2 years. My mother just got the remains back and had a memorial service.
(951)-247-8231
Ask for pat. She'll tell you
Want me to post his obituary?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
You're an F*ing bastard. Yeah, I missed his funeral too. I got pictures. Again He died 08/09/2007
Ramond Walter Wozny.Born April 26, 1921.
Left from fighting WWII April 13th, 1945
Daughter, ME, was born April 30th, 1991.
He died AGAIN 08/09/2007.
Anyone who knows me KNOWS he donated his body to science. How dare you critize what I've done and call me a fraud before you know anything>?! I mean seriously, yeah I have a couple run in's with the law, I'll be honest. I don't even have to defend myself on those, I already did the court thing.

Seriously, you need to get a life and stop being a hater. All I want is to start a group of people to worship what we believe.
How many f*ed up people go to church???? How much corruption is there in any church???
OMG. Dude, someone needs to wake these close-minded people up.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Funny, that I actually submitted the death certificates to a few airlines, but still couldn't afford the bereavement flights.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
From http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/pe/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=93204599
RAYMOND WALTER WOZNY age 86 of Moreno Valley, passed away August 8th, 2007. He is survived by his wife Patricia of Moreno Valley; son Douglas of Norco; daughters Shannon and Latisha of Moreno Valley; and two grandsons. Services will be held September 14, 10 AM at Palm Canyon Community Church, 25550 Ironwood Avenue, Moreno Valley. (951) 817-9639

And that services that was held was a memorial service.
as I've said before, he was in the military, and his funeral at Riverside National Cemetary was later, when his body was done.
thanks for making my day miles city.
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Posted by Joshua Austill (+92) 12 years ago
Well Smiley, in your post asking for help you very plainly said FUNERAL, NOT Memorial service. It's in black and white, you lied. Maybe it was a small misspeak, but it was still not honest, and thus a lie.

It is not uncommon for people to donate their bodies to science, mainly for the purpose of being cadavers at medical schools that I'm aware of. It is not common for people to wait 2 years to have a funeral, even when the body is being donated. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you can't expect people to go oh ya, that seems normal either.

Also, you have done a very good job of attacking many people in this forum from Miles City. Treat others as you would like to be treated, all I see is people treating you the way you treated them. As for me, Jesus tells me I have to love you, so I'll be praying for you, and I wish you nothing but the best.

Good day!
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Posted by J. Dyba (+1345) 12 years ago
Are you sure Jesus didn't tell you to shove her?
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Anyone who has got ANYTHING to say
Call me 406-351-1417
Pick up a phone and tell me to my face, cowards.
Come see me why don't you?
Public record???
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Posted by wilmajean (+45) 12 years ago
This was all very interesting, now it's just sad.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson (+6172) 12 years ago
Joshua,

Funeral and memorial service may not be as distinct in everyone's mind as it is in yours. My own grandmother did the same thing and it took 2 years to get her ashes back so Smiley's story is perfectly reasonable. Yeeesshh!
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Posted by Levi Forman (+3707) 12 years ago
Pick up a phone and tell me to my face, cowards.

Wait...do you want them to call you and tell you over the phone? Or tell you to your face while holding a phone?
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Posted by Derf Bergman (+590) 12 years ago
Funeral and memorial service may not be as distinct in everyone's mind as it is in yours.

I'm with you on that, Wendy. The terms are all interchangeable.
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
In fact, I'll be having a service at Parker's later this weekend.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr (+15082) 12 years ago
Is it funeral or memorial service? For your friend Johnny Walker or Jack Daniels?
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Posted by Sharon Clarke (+81) 12 years ago
LMAO Levi, I was thinking the same thing when I read that too, but just didn't say it myself.....errr.....til now
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Posted by Erika Phillips (+73) 12 years ago
Smiley, Wow I just cannot apologize to you enough for the mindless pricks in Miles City! Welcome and rise above it sweetie. Remember; Be a goddess. There are some amazing people here and you will get to know them. It really is a great place. I am from Canada originally but did spend some time in the UK so I too miss the multicultural and openmindedness. Don't let the few ruin you. Most people here are intrigued when I tell them what my beliefs are and are more open than we think.

I have been searching for others and I look forward to meeting you.

Kindest,
Erika Phillips
The Controversial Canine
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Posted by Buck Showalter (+4455) 12 years ago
Oh Erika, you wouldn't be controversial at all if you didn't live in bumf*ck nowhere and ran around begging for attention, would you? I suppose you have purple hair and love to complain about the stares.
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Thank you Erika for your nice comments, you are not the first to express good feelings towards me. If you e-mail me, I can send you more info
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
Buck, She actually has red hair, that looks natural. Go check out her website?
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Posted by Steve Craddock (+2738) 12 years ago
Wow, a lot has been goin' on since I left on vacation ten days ago.

Welcome to Miles City, Smiley. I'd like to second one thing in particular that Erika said: Don't let the few ruin it for you.

Since moving to Miles City about two years ago, I've found the majority of people here have minds as open as the prairies that surround us. Admittedly, there are a few people whose minds are as empty as those same prairies, but those types exist everywhere - and that includes cities in Canada and the UK. Focus on the good folks and I think you'll be surprised at how amazing this little town is.

Stop in for coffee sometime at Cafe Utza or go to the Confluence Open Mic at the Elks Club on Friday nights and you're sure to find people who will embrace your individuality, welcome your friendship, and support your freedom to worship or believe in whatever you want.
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Posted by howdy (+4950) 12 years ago
Welcome back Steve, you were missed...Hope your vacation was terrific!! Ditto what Steve just said Smiley...There are many good folks in Miles City...
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Posted by Smiley (+854) 12 years ago
I actually go to cafe utza a lot. I love the pink flamingo drink... I think that's what it's called, my daughter and I always get them. Its the strawberries with the sparkling water and a shot of vanilla. Yum. And I never knew there was an open mic?
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+17732) 12 years ago
Who else here likes that old CCR song, "Pagan Baby"?

That song really rocks.
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