Posted by Juan Agular (+47) 3 years ago
Viva Obama, Viva Cuba. Let's just hope our idea of normalization doesn't mean paraĆ­so corporativa or estado esclavista. Thoughts
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Posted by Amorette F. Allison (+1913) 3 years ago
I am delighted. If a policy hasn't worked in over 50 years, it's not going to miraculously start working now.
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Posted by Juan Agular (+47) 3 years ago
You do know that there is life outside of Custer county, right?

I am amazed that Amorette is the only responder to this post..

[This message has been edited by Juan Agular (12/20/2014)]
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+2490) 3 years ago
I love the idea of Peace and it was a great feeling when this took place.
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Posted by Hannah Nash (+2412) 3 years ago
Peace and a global-view is much healthier for our foreign policy than 13 years of war. I hope this bodes well for future interactions leaning toward more diplomacy.

Let's have this be the start of real growth and development.
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Posted by Carol H (+99) 3 years ago
you are dealing with a dictator, do you really think there is going to be peace? It is the season of miracles but seriously!!!
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+9197) 3 years ago
But why keep up a 54 year old policy? It hasn't worked in half a century. Maybe it is time to try something else. You know what the definition of insanity is, don't you? If you are a good Republican, you live it every day.
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Posted by Carol H (+99) 3 years ago
funny I was thinking the same .... that as a democrat you live insanity every day!!!!!!
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Posted by Carol H (+99) 3 years ago
Besides who says I am republican, I just don't see where there will be peace when dealing with a dictator, I am a free thinker!!
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson (+11472) 3 years ago
Ummm.....we normalized relations with China in the 1970s. I kind of think we have had peace with that dictator.

You may be a free thinker, but that certainly doesn't mean you do a lot of thinking.
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Posted by Hannah Nash (+2412) 3 years ago
Thanks, Gunnar, I was just going to mention China.
China has even had "most favored nation" status permanent by the US in 2001. Are you aware of the human rights violations of their government? To even compare the weenie little violations of Cuba to those of China is just ludicrous and shows an appalling lack of history knowledge.
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Posted by Amorette Allison (+9197) 3 years ago
How come every 'free thinker' on this forum is a Republican?
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+13710) 3 years ago
If the definition of a dictator is one who controls the government and tells everyone else what to do... and dictators are "boogie man bad", then we ought deal with those in our own borders. It ironic that there is no outrage on the the part of the "free thinkers" over the way folks like the Koch brothers and all of their serigates control the every move of our government. Why is there no outrage over the coming austerity from those they control our own government. Why is there no outrage over the actions of the Theonomists, that are attempting to dictate everyone's spiritual beliefs and establish a theocracy? Use some of the "free thinking" to educate yourself on how our country is being subverted by our own brand of dictators. We need to deal with our own dictators and "dicktratiors" like Mr. Cheney.

Amorette is spot on... the policy with Cuba hasn't worked in 5 decades. It's time to try plan B. We are fortunate to have a visionary leader like President Obama in the Whitehouse to make these needed and historic changes.
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Posted by ike eichler (+1220) 3 years ago
Other than one responder to this thread, how old were you in 1961 during The Bay Of Pigs or the 1962 Cuban missile Crisis? B/4 you flame, I support the end to the embargo unless it results in the Castro's sending another 125 thousand of insane and criminals as exiles.
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Posted by Bob Netherton II (+1911) 3 years ago
Bay of Pigs - Our own idiotic idea.

Cuban Missile Crisis - USSR's
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Posted by Steve Sullivan (+786) 3 years ago
I'd click the 'like' button for Richard's post, but we don't have one.

[This message has been edited by Steve Sullivan (12/22/2014)]
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Posted by Tucker Bolton (+2922) 3 years ago
I find it interesting that someone opposed to dictatorship is perfectly happy living with an oligarchy. One of the first things that happened after the revolution was the repatriation of corporate lands to the people of cuba including the Castro's family farm.

I suspect that we will wait a long time before Monsanto releases their seed patents and stop bankrupting family farmers that refuse to fall into line. Oddly, the statement regarding Castro's sending the criminals to our fair shores reminds me that we, as a nation, turned a shipload of Jewish refugees away, after WWII.

I could go on but I realize that most "good americans" only know what the CIA and FBI, government reports state, for public consumption.

"Those Commie Bastards" , as Tricky Dick Nixon called them, survived and pissed off every administration since the revolution, including the "ten year Special Period", after Russia pulled out. Cubanos, turned the entire island into a community farm, while we tried to poison, shoot, strangle and in general attempt to starve Castro off the planet.

The highest paid profession in Cuba is farming. Education and medical care is free. There are more Doctors per capita in Cuba, than any place on earth. Humanitarian aid is sent all over the world with no ulterior motives, IE capital gain or political power. Guess who couldn't visit Cuba, Us. Guess who could, everyone else.

I have ambivalent feelings about normalizing relations with Cuba. Will our arrogance allow us to be good neighbors? Will we consider democratic socialism? It will be interesting to watch but I fear that it won't take long to normalize Cuba back to a Batista like island, run by corporations and crooks. Will there be a Castro or a Che to take it back? I doubt it, if the same lobbyists, crooks and corporate whores have their way.
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Posted by Lorin Dixson (+591) 3 years ago
Tucker Bolton
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Posted by Bridgier (+8037) 3 years ago
It's a sad state of affairs when one of the darkest hellholes of torture and abuse in Cuba is run by the US government.
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Posted by cj sampsel (+478) 3 years ago
The Embargo has been ridiculous for decades. Besides w/o Castro
we would never have had the remake of Scarface.
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Posted by Oddjob (+131) 3 years ago
Ike

Nobody cares that the Castros fully supported putting nuclear weapons within minutes of most of the major cities in the US and nearly set off a holocaust that could have destroyed the planet. Don't you understand that "Yankee Imperialism" is the greatest threat to freedom?

Bridgier

I think the 57,000 "political prisoners" in Cuban slave labor camps would disagree that the "darkest hellhole of torture" in Cuba belongs to the US.


The upside is Obama has ceded Florida to the Republicans for the next hundred years or so. Apparently the Democrats think they can consistently win without it.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+13710) 3 years ago
"Other than one responder to this thread, how old were you in 1961 during The Bay Of Pigs or the 1962 Cuban missile Crisis?"

I was born 7 days after the Bay of Pigs.
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Posted by Juan Agular (+47) 3 years ago
I was a junior in high school. The fear factor was high and I have learned through the years what an effective political tool fear is.

Oddjob, how delightful to see you joined in to spout the party line. I would have been disappointed had you not.

[This message has been edited by Juan Agular (12/23/2014)]
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Posted by Oddjob (+131) 3 years ago
It's not a party line, Juan.

It's a political reality.

But you apparently understand that as much as you appreciate how close you came to becoming a carbon smudge in 10/62, courtesy of the Castro bro's.
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Posted by cj sampsel (+478) 3 years ago
I had just turned 7. We had recently moved to Tuscon. We could watch the U2 spy planes circling and being refueled by Davis Monthan
AFB tankers, then turning to fly back to Cuba.
We have relations w/ China, Vietnam, not too long ago Russia and are now budding up to recently former enemies to fight ISIS. Why not Cuba.
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Posted by Jeri Dalbec (+2490) 3 years ago
If you get time, read "The Oswald Code".
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+13710) 3 years ago
I am absolutely dumbfounded by the inability of the conservative geriatric crowd to change. Yes, we perhaps all came close in 1962 to becoming a "carbon smudge". The threat from those potential advisaries no longer exisits or are grealty diminished. While it might be fun for some to remain in the era of Ward and June Cleaver, the times have changed and our polices should reflect the realities of today.
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Posted by Oddjob (+131) 3 years ago
Pardon me if I take offense to your expressed desire for my rapid demise.

I am "absolutely dumbfounded" by the obsession of the Left to openly embrace murdering Marxist dictators while ignoring the rivers of blood and human oppression created and sustained by these monsters. The Left grovels in adoration at the altar of Marx, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Chi Guevara, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-un and countless other Socialist mass murderers while wallowing in a psychosis of who the bad guys are.

"Conservative geriatrics" are not opposed to change. They are opposed to prematurely becoming the pile of skulls that will be the centerpiece of your Socialist paradise.

In your blind pursuit of "hope and change", have you ever seriously thought about the possible ulterior motives behind the desire to "move things along" by the elimination of "conservative geriatrics" and any others that openly oppose your quest for utopia? If they don't "hurry up and die", perhaps the end justifies the means?

It's the message that the Left sends that drives the opposition and the creation of more "conservative geriatrics". It's definitely what drives the need to be prepared for when the Left becomes...too "impatient".
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Posted by Amorette F. Allison (+1913) 3 years ago
Dick Cheney.
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Posted by Juan Agular (+47) 3 years ago
"Marx, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Chi Guevara, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-un"


There is an enormous difference in your list, Oddjob, old toot. Karl Marx, Castro, Che, Ho Chi Minh and you failed to mention Leon Trotsky are idealistic intellectuals that cared about the human condition and either wrote about it or took decisive action and made personal sacrifices to bring about change. Yes, absolutely, blood was spilled but you manage to remain blind to the atrocities committed by amerika then and now, on a daily basis. Let's face it we are a violent society, led by a bunch of greedy, violent bastards.

Mao was a Syphilitic despot. Pol Pot murdered a quarter of his own population, mostly urban people forced into farming and hard labor, in a radical agrarian, communist experiment of his own design. If you just throw Joseph Stalin, Kim Jung Il and Kim Jung Un in the stew then you have main stream Americas idea of what communism and socialism is.

Read! learn and study. Don't listen to me and for Pete's sake (who is Pete?) don't listen to the media. There is way too much linear thinking in our country. Don't buy into the fear. Build bridges, not walls. Speak your own mind. Don't echo the propaganda spread by the fear mongers and corporate whores.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr. (+13710) 3 years ago
OJ saith:
Pardon me if I take offense to your expressed desire for my rapid demise.


In your blind pursuit of "hope and change", have you ever seriously thought about the possible ulterior motives behind the desire to "move things along" by the elimination of "conservative geriatrics" and any others that openly oppose your quest for utopia? If they don't "hurry up and die", perhaps the end justifies the means?


Damn!... I hope Santa brings some new larger underwear for Christmas. Of course to deal with the "waddedness" of your current boxers or briefs, will involve "change".

It's your choice to be offended. I wish for the demise of of nobody. I am one of the most compassionate people you will ever encounter. Wishing for demise isn't my style.

Juan pretty much said everything else I was going to say, which is to be expected... He's the Juan you should listen to...
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Posted by Oddjob (+131) 3 years ago
Textbook Leftist spin in defense of their favorite despots...and you accuse me of spouting a "party line"?

"Karl Marx, Castro, Che, Ho Chi Minh and you failed to mention Leon Trotsky are idealistic intellectuals that cared about the human condition and either wrote about it or took decisive action and made personal sacrifices to bring about change."

You have to be s**ting me....

Yeah, there are differences. Marx wrote the manual. The rest of your pals are just run-of-the-mill mass murderers.

Why is it Juan, that the only "solution" these "idealistic intellectuals" can find to fix the human condition they care so much about, is by slaughtering millions and locking up the rest?

[This message has been edited by Oddjob (12/26/2014)]
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Posted by Tucker Bolton (+2922) 3 years ago
Odd, or do you prefer Mr. Job? Let me just make some assumptions. You are not a veteran of a foreign war. I am. I matriculated to mine in 1966. I say matriculated because it was the beginning of my education. I began learning about the denial of the American people and how revisionist history has colored societies world view.

You attend church on a regular basis at a mainstream protestant church. I did. I had questions and went looking for answers. Do you have any idea how the text you probably use came about and the revisions that have occurred to this work of fiction? Hell, King James threw out several books because they weren't politicaly correct. I won't say any more because if I'm right, it's falling on deaf ears.

You own guns beyond the hunting variety. You feel safer with them in your home. One or more are loaded and you honestly believe that democrats and liberals want to take them away. How am I doing?

Now for silly stuff. You like John Wayne movies. You probably own and wear camo when you're not hunting. You are not well traveled and don't spend a lot of time reading. You listen to conservative talk radio, watch Fox news and not much else and hang out with people that share only your views.

These are assumptions and not based on research, studies or what I have heard. They are preconceived notions and are not fair, right or researched. I signed out as Juan Agular and back in as Tucker. I had fun with Juan but killed him for full disclosure. Come on OJ stop hiding behind your nom de plume and face the public.
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Posted by Bridgier (+8037) 3 years ago
"Marx, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Chi Guevara, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-un"

You are old, and you have proven yourself incapable of viewing people who disagree with you politically in anything other than some sort of weird Bircher stereotype.

Why should anyone who disagrees with you bother to have any sort of discussion with you? It's not like you listen. Or think.
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Posted by Oddjob (+131) 3 years ago
Well, Tucker I hate to step on your fetish for stereotypes, but you're pretty much wrong on all counts.

I am a Vet and eligible to join the VFW if I felt like hanging out with those people, but I don't, for many reasons. I was well educated in Liberal Arts at a fine institution of Communist studies and spent most of the '60's as an anti-war radical including the stint I served in the Army after being drafted. I've read all the books and studied all the propaganda on both sides. After giving up whiskey, dope and Marxism, I continued my education and ended up making a living in Earth Sciences for the past 35 years. I have traveled extensively and worked abroad. In the past 30 years, the only time I have spent in church was at weddings and funerals. These days, more funerals. 12 years of Catholic school was enough church for a lifetime.

Not that it matters, but I have been married to the same woman for 40 years and we have children who are all employed college graduates. I suspect all of them voted for Obama in spite of their old man, but I don't care. We taught them to make their own decisions to shape the world they have to live in. They bring by their liberal (and conservative) friends for a few beers and lively political debate quite often. I know more about Tupac, Gaga, Third Eye Blind, Green Day, Half Life and Grand Theft Auto than I ever wanted to.

As far as guns go, I don't own a pile, but I own enough, know how to use them and they are all loaded and handy. I know I'm safer when I have one on my person, (which is usually the case), because it was my choice to pack. I don't lose any sleep over liberals or Democrats taking them away because it will never happen. I do not hunt anymore, because after leaving Montana, I will never eat another piece of venison. I do not own any camo.

I listen to right-wing radio, Fox news and NPR, PBS and MSNBC. I am a life-long reader of newspapers from all across the spectrum. My first computer was an early Compaq with atrocious dial-up access and since, I have been to the end of the Internet. I follow 20 or 30 bloggers of all topics and political persuasions. I am well versed in software from spreadsheets to complex 3-D modelling applications. My major shortcoming in technology is that I still own a Blackberry, because all I need is a phone, email and texting capability. That makes me a dinosaur in some circles.

Finally, I prefer Clint Eastwood movies to John Wayne. John Wayne movies are all the same. I use a "nom de plume" because it's allowed and because it really doesn't make any difference who I am. I grew up in Miles City and I maintain an interest. Apparently you feel it's OK too, when you're up for a little Marxist bomb-throwing.

Right, "Juan"?

Like this thread?
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Posted by Tucker Bolton (+2922) 3 years ago
Damn you OddJob. Now that I've read your comment I find that we have traveled somewhat similar paths. I suspect that we could have face to face intercourse and enjoy the time we spend not changing each others ideals. As a matter of interest, my minor was geology and I have been married to the same woman for forty eight years. We, Glenna and I, stood side by side and protested the war in Vietnam, when I got out. We still are, as you might guess.

When confronted, I am too quick, turning to sarcasm, when I feel that discourse is futile. Your last post makes me feel embarrassed that I took that course with you. I appreciate your honesty and candor and hope that you will accept my apology and know that I will keep my discourse civil and know that you will as well. I put you in a box along with a stereotype that I have come to dislike.

That being said
"slaughtering millions and locking up the rest"

is a gross exaggeration, when Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are taken out of the equation. If you read my post carefully you found that I am not a fan of these gentlemen.

Thank you for your response. I know that I can't unsay anything but know, if I could resend my post, I would. Similar experiences, often bring about divergent paths.

Happy new year, peace and a better world,

Tucker
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Posted by David Schott (+12210) 3 years ago
Isn't that sweet, Tucker and Oddjob...

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