Mandatory School Showering
Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Before I start let me say that this is Jimmie's wife so there isn't confusion. We just have one account.

I am wondering what the opinions are about mandatory school showers in Miles City. I have done a lot of research and this is what I've found.

*Most of the rest of the country has ended mandatory school showers because of the increased liability.
*The ACLU in PA successfully ended mandatory school showers there by threatening a lawsuit. The case did not go to court. The school dropped their policy by the involvement of the ACLU. The lawyer in the case said that "Unless a student is drawing flies, it's none of the school's business."
*Lawyers involved in the case said that normally the ACLU receives much hate mail but with this case overwhelming support was received with lots of people sending in their stories of shame and embarassment.
*The practice is considered barbaric and archaeic in most of the rest of the country. No measurable effects have been seen where school showers have been stopped.
*Dr. David Bernhardt, a specialist in pediatrics and sports medicine at the University of Wisconsin-Madison says "It doesn't do any favors for your self-esteem, and when you don't feel good about yourself, you tend to pull back, close off."

I started looking into this because our second child will be entering jr. hi here in a few years and even though our first child went through it, just because something has always been this way doesn't mean it should stay that way. This is what I think.

*Schools are opening themselves up to lawsuits. It would be super easy to sneak in a cell phone and take a picture of a girl you don't like and with the click of one button send it out to the world. From there it is no turning back. Also sexual bullying is at an all-time high. Why given more ammunition?
*If it is really about cleanliness why can't they wear swimsuits/trunks? You can't tell me that if kids soaped up with a suit on they would still stink.
*There is no other place in life where it would be okay to demand that your child get naked in front of other kids and adults (gym teacher). We don't accept it anywhere else so why should it be okay here?
*Kids should have a certian measure of privacy. I know they aren't adults with all the rights adults get but that doens't mean they shouldn't have a right to privacy in this area. Showering in "gang showers" is just asking for teasing and harasment when there is no need for it. Many of the schools that still require showers now have private shower stalls to reduce libility risk. I don't think our school district wants to go there.

I'd like to know what others think as I am considering bringing this to the attention of the school board and if no luck the MT ACLU.

Thanks
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Posted by Smiley 5 years ago
I agree. By the time I was in high school, it had been done away with. The showers were used as storage centers, and there was one shower if you wanted to use it voluntarily.
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Posted by Bridgier 5 years ago
I remember one upperclassman who would chase freshmen down after football practice and force them to shower if they hadn't. Good times for all involved.

Of course, I always found the communal shower to be the perfect way to end a good hard wrestling practice, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.

[This message has been edited by Bridgier (5/7/2010)]
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Posted by CS Hunt 5 years ago
This is the "wife" half responding, too....

I tend to agree on this. I graduated high school in 99 in CO, and we still had showers but it wasn't required to take them. Those who didn't got teased, though. We didn't take showers after PE, but after practices or games. However, we also didn't have cell phones with picture and video capabilities either.

Times have changed and rules should, too. Although our oldest is only 9, I wouldn't force him to shower at school these days. I think it's different for boys, though. There's more chance to be made fun of, in my opinion.
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
By all means get the ACLU involved. Before you go around threatening to sue, why don't you wait until the kid is in Jr. High or the summer before, then go to the school administration and have a talk? Then see if you need to go further.
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Posted by Kacey 5 years ago
Have you spoken to the school about this? Start there. I agree it was pure tortue in high school. We didn't have showers in junior high.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Did you read my whole post Mr. Cutting? I said I was thinking about bringing it before the school board and if I had no luck then the ACLU. I was not threatening a lawsuit. The case I talked about in PA didn't go to court. The school changed their policy. Read the whole thing before you get snotty. It's not only about my kid. I am trying to change policy, not get an exeption for my kid. Don't you think it would cause more harm to single out my kid for an exception to the rule?

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (5/7/2010)]
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Posted by Josh Rath 5 years ago
I didn't read the post, But I am going to assume. The showers are not mandatory by any means in WMS or CCDHS. Been there, done that. If they say you "Must", they are wrong. What will the teacher do? Tattle on you to the principal? Pssh. Veis, Gundlach, Bilden, Jebens, and Polich will not force them to shower. You have the option. They will pester you, but not force you.
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Posted by TH 5 years ago
actually I think it is mandatory as part of your grade, atleast in junior high
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
That's my understanding as well.

They will pester you, but not force you.


I guess I'm not getting across that this is my point. A kid should not be "pestered" about it at all. I do not want my kid singled out. I would like the school board to eliminate an outdated policy that serves no purpose. If they really want kids clean, they would require that they wear suits. Any other option is out of line. If they want to shower that is the kid's right, but it should not be mandatory or "strongly recomended" which really means the same as mandatory. There should be no recommendation either way.
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Posted by Mike Zier 5 years ago
Other side of the coin

I see your point but how about a childs self-esteem if they don't shower? Say you have PE 1st hour don't shower and stink up the joint 2nd period. They might get "pestered" for being the smelly kid in 2nd hour
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Posted by Bridgier 5 years ago
Just for the record, Mike wasn't the upperclassman in question.
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Posted by kelly l 5 years ago
lol bridgier...
I agree that the new level of bullying amongst kids this age and text/pix bullying requires that prior rules be revisited. I think that private showers should be installed, as I don't believe that showering after a workout should be done away with altogether (would anyone return to work that way?). I think, that as no action has been taken as far as requesting this issue be addressed by the school board(s), the first step would be to contact them and ask that this be discussed.
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Posted by Mike Zier 5 years ago
HAHA Bridgier No that wasn't me


I think the idea of the individual shower would be great. In perticular at the JRHI level
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
The girls at SHJH and SHHS had individual showers.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Indiv. showers would be great.

I forget to put in my original post the best quote I saw in researching this topic.

"Some coaches say showering together can help sports teams bond."

Right. Maybe boys are different but I remember the girls getting the minimum time in to prove that they had showered, like splash in and then get the heck out. There was no "bonding" going on.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonia..._at_school_no_w.html

"educators in several school districts said teenagers seem no stinkier than in the past.

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (5/7/2010)]
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Posted by Bridgier 5 years ago
But it WAS one of your fellow linemen Mike....
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey 5 years ago
when i was in junior high (late nineties) showering was mandatory after gym class, unless you were menstruating at that week. it was probably the most humiliating experience for any preteen. if my memory is correct; we just wrapped towels around us and got our arms and legs wet.

if stinky kiddos is an issue perhaps they (the school) should have an annual hygiene talk and offer deodorant and soap to kids who don't have them.
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Posted by Tucker Bolton 5 years ago
Ahhhh, school days, me and the other lads in high spirits trying not to slip and break an arm as we popped one another with wetted and rolled towels. It did sting like the dickens but it was all great fun. Mind you, the old knee falling on the concrete floor would bring a smart tear to the eye.

I remember fondly the large open room filled with shiney chrome shower heads poking through the walls. How they glistened against the clean blue tile. It refreshed the body and provided tonic to the soul to wash the sweat, won in sports combat from our young bodies. Almost a baptism, washing you clean to sally forth for the tedious studies of the afternoon. Ahhh, school days.

NOTE: I was a fat kid and matured late. It took all of my courage to shower with my fellows. It took some talent as well to get from the shower room to my locker while keeping my back to 30 other young men or casually placing my towel between my genetalia and their eyes.

I still think that a shower after sports or play is good but stalls would be nice for the timid.
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
Well, Jimmie's wife, how exactly do you think the ACLU operates? They don't buy the school district some nice flowers, take them to dinner, then ask politely for them to lift their dress while the ACLU procreates them! Its a law suit or a threat of one that the ACLU uses to get done what they want.

And your child will be singled out no matter what if you start creating waves over him/her getting teased. It won't be done by the coaches/teachers.... and if you step in, those same kids will be relentless on your child.

Now, THAT was a snotty answer. And intended to be so.
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Posted by Bridgier 5 years ago
as we popped one another with wetted and rolled towels. It did sting like the dickens but it was all great fun.


Don't forget one dude peeing on another dude when the first wasn't looking. Those were some gay old times.

Anyways - Showering is non-mandatory here in Boise - my daughter looked at me like I'd grown a third eye right in the middle of my forehead when I ask her if they were required to take showers in PE.
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
Tucker, you are a wise man!

My real answer is somewhat of what is above. I think that if a kid doesn't want to shower, they don't and shouldn't have to. That in itself will cause problems with teasing.

The individual showers thing is a nice thought, but I don't see CCDHS remodeling the locker rooms to benefit some modest kids. Although I most certainly would have appreciated it myself. I still don't like showering in the gym for the same reason.

As for the teasing, kids will be kids. They tease relentlessly no matter what. Teasing is hard on self esteem and feelings, and can lead to larger problems. The best thing is to police all of our children to teach them the value of appreciating others' feelings and to not tease.

Childhood is not always a pleasurable experience!
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Posted by B. Hunter 5 years ago
Mind you, I didn't school here, but... from my own experiences in junior high and then in high school. I don't support mandatory school showering at all; even if only for the sake of the few (or many) that are bullied by their classmates. It doesn't make a difference if it is boys or girls... it still happens.

And for any coach/PE teacher to single out a child or "pester" them? If it is to the point of public humiliation... then I take major issue with it.

I have a step-son entering junior high and hadn't really thought about this issue yet. I'm curious to know what the local junior high's policies are on the matter.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Its a law suit or a threat of one that the ACLU uses to get done what they want.


Mr. Cutting. Since I've said more than once that it would be taken to the school board first, if they refuse to respond to the situation don't you think that is the logical next step? Shouldn't there be some kind of next step if the board won't consider it? Parents are just supposed to say, oh ok thank you and forget about it? No. There has to be a next step for change. It can't stop with a local school board. How would any change ever happen if that's the way it worked?

And your child will be singled out no matter what if you start creating waves over him/her getting teased. It won't be done by the coaches/teachers.... and if you step in, those same kids will be relentless on your child.


That's why I would never do it using my real name. I know you don't know what it's like to raise a child in a small town. I wouldn't ever do that to them.

Is the school board ready for a lawsuit when a cell phone pic is taken and spreads like wildfire? That's child pornography. This didn't used to be a concern. It is now. Times change. It's not about kids will be kids and teasing.

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (5/7/2010)]
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Posted by Amorette Allison 5 years ago
Holy crap, am I glad I am OLD. We showered after gym class and went on about our business. In Junior High. In High School. It was no big deal. I know there were a few girls who were shy in junior high but you got over it by high school when you realized everybody had the same bits in the same order. There were some religious exceptions but no one got their knickers in a twist.

Biggest worry for me was keeping my hair from getting really wet, especially in the winter time.
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
Mrs. Jimmie....The question is not if the school board would refuse to address the situation, it is would they address it to YOUR liking?

If they said:

"We do not require students to shower before or after any sporting events or athletic activities."

"We encourage staff to stop bullying and teasing whenever it is occurring and require school staff to report incidents to the principal."

"Cell phones are not allowed on school property."

Now, these obviously are not word for word, but are pretty accurate. I really don't know what the cell phone rule is at local schools since cell phones required a large hand-held device that resembled a brick when I was in school.

What more would you like the school to do? Just close the locker room down and not allow anyone in for fear their parts might get seen? What exactly is your line in the sand regarding the answers and actions that you want to see or hear from the school district? What do you see as a "lack of response" by the school district that would compel you to invite the ACLU to take up your cause?

And by the way, I do understand what it is like to grow up in a small town, being from MC and all. I stood with my naked ass in the same shower that your Little Jimmie will have to stand in. I didn't like it much either, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Finally, a complainant in a law suit would have to show that the school acted negligently, and that negligence led to a picture being taken that lead to the picture being distributed. It would probably have to be proven that the school (or its representative, say the gym teacher or coach) knew of the shutterbug and chose not to do anything about it. Requiring someone to shower in gym class (which, again, they don't do) does not meet that threshold of negligence.

Your concern for Little Jimmie's feelings and not wanting your kid to be teased and ridiculed by his peers is spot on for a parent. But to demand something (you haven't defined it yet) from the school board or you would consider a law suit is not rational.

My honest, sincere advice is to talk to Little Jimmie. Know what's going on. Tell him kids say mean things, and teach him not to be like that. Even report bullying if it is occurring. Continue to be a good parent, but don't be irrational.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
I guess it's another case of this is the way it's always been done in Miles City so accept it. I just can't seem to understand how the rest of the country has made it work when it's so impossible. Guess they are all irrational too. Only in good ole Miles City do we still have our values in order. Amorette, don't think you had to worry about the same issues in your time. Cell phones get snuck into classes ALL the time. It will just take one girl mad at another to think she's going to get even and circulate a pic. It's happened other places, just a matter of time before it happens here. No one has yet answered my question about suits. I can't think of one good reason why kids are required to strip naked when they could shower with a suit on. Someone earlier said that they just wrapped towels around and went in, wouldn't a suit be less cumbersome?
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
Its got nothing to do with "that's the way its always been." Answer the question of what you would like to see done. What do you feel the school isn't doing that it should? Or is removing showering entirely your only desire here?
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
I give up. If you graduated from here I guess you must not have done well with reading comp. I have said repeatedly about suits. I have said stalls would be great. I have said it should not be mandatory. I have not once said about getting rid of showers completely. It should be optional. Most of our fellow states have gotten rid of mandatory showering but I guess we should feel free to remain in the backwoods minority and wait for the problems rather than be proactive.
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Posted by tjh 5 years ago
HA we weren't forced to shower when we were in junior high or highschool, nor did it reflect on our grades. But I will say the only guy that really had a problem showering in junior high is now a girl.

Honestly if you want CCDHS to throw down some money for shower stall all you'll have to do is say the sports teams want it. Everyone should know cowboys and cowgirls come before CCDHS students.

Yes I'm sure your kid would do just fine and be just as clean if they shower with a swim suit on. What do you expect your kid to do with a soaking wet suit all day? Just wait tell jimmie forgets that in his backpack for a week.

Yes CCDHS has a No phones in the bathroom policy but that's not really going to stop any kid. For the people woundering how fast those pictures will spread, they spread just as fast as when your darling daughter sends a nude pic to her boyfriend then when the relationship goes south slam bang everyones got a picture.

I guess I viewed the whole shower thing as just part of growing up.

for the shy people just remember "We've all got the same guns just some of us have a diffrent caliber"
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Posted by Cory Cutting 5 years ago
tjh, I love the last line!!

OK, Jimmie's wife, here's it in a nut shell. (although I don't quite know why)

If you want Little Jimmie to not shower, if he just doesn't do it, it probably won't be much of a problem.

If you want Little Jimmie to wear swim trunks while he showers to cover HIS Little Jimmie so no one takes a picture of it, there will probably be HUGE problems. He will be teased right out of the school. For the love of god, woman, PLEASE don't do this to him! (or her, which, BTW, is even a little more odd, a girl in a swim suit in the shower. And, if that's what you'll get Little Jimmie, a nice one-piecer, I'm sure you will have to move.)

Don't make your kid's life hell because you're worried about him/her feeling the way you did. Let them make their own decision. Either way, I doubt the school gives two hoots about whether your kid is necked when he gets in the shower or not.

I have expended way more time on this than I can even fathom. Thank you for your time, I've worked up a sweat, I'm going to hit the showers!
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Posted by Frank Hardy 5 years ago
I remember it like it was yesterday. The first day of gym class, freshman year. I was in a locker room full of Geico cavemen. The sweaty stink of dirty socks permeated the air as the hulks began to undress and stomp towards the showers, towels slapping the air with frowning grimaces in my direction urging me to follow their lead. The air was filled with a steamy mist, yet not enough to cover the sense of shame I felt as I began to remove my oversized gym clothes. I had two thumbs in the band of my size 10 jockeys when something inside me snapped and I bolted for the exits screaming with a loud rebel yell as I passed the office door. I was within several feet of the exit when the door opened and Mr. Polich stepped inside with a sneer.

"Going somewhere Hardy?" He asked.

The soles of my feet were charred with cement burns as I skidded to a stop and reversed my direction towards the alternate exit, beyond the showers. My shock turned quickly to fear as I spotted Mr. Nees standing alongside the shower glowering at me. In his hand pointed at me was a menacing implement.

"Don't taze me bro'!" I pleaded, fearing the worst. But, it was too late. The volts coursed through my body as I was zapped and tossed into the midst of the showers doomed to the start of a soap on the rope creationist's dream. 4 years later, I escaped....never to return.

At least that's what I think happened...


FH

[This message has been edited by Frank Hardy (5/8/2010)]
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Posted by r martelle 5 years ago
Regardless of your feelings about any issue at school. Why do some people think they need to start their complaint or discuss their issue at the School Board level. Issues are usually solved best at the lowest level. By starting at the School Board level, an issue usually gets sent back to the lower level (ie Teacher/Coach) for resolve. If you get no satisfaction, then work your way up the ladder.

You may be making an issue where there is none.

Or if you don't think the School Board can handle it, why not take it to your congressional delegate and make a federal case of it. (Sarcasm intended)
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
By starting at the School Board level, an issue usually gets sent back to the lower level (ie Teacher/Coach) for resolve.


Sigh....because I am talking about changing school policy, not getting an exception for one kid. Teachers and coaches don't decide school policy do they????

Finally, a complainant in a law suit would have to show that the school acted negligently, and that negligence led to a picture being taken that lead to the picture being distributed.


I disagree. I think a good lawyer would argue that school board policy REQUIRES kids get naked in front of others. It is this REQUIREMENT that would lead to a pic being taken and distributed. If there was not REQUIREMENT by the school policy there would be no opportunity to take a naked pic and distribute without consent.
If you take out the requirement, then it's a different situation. The school policy would not be REQUIRING anything, which I would think would eliminate their liability. About the earlier comment about daughters sending their boyfriends naked pics, it's stupid beyond belief, but we are talking about something they are doing of their free choice. Apples and oranges. We are not talking about something with free choice.
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Posted by mule train 5 years ago
It WAS mandatory at CCDHS from '87-'91 if you wanted an 'A'. Lot's of gayness in the old locker room as I remember. Probably with those same fellows that Bridger is referring to.

It is not mandatory in CO...the kids just spray themselves with a ridiculous amount of Axe to keep from being "smelly".
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
Guess I don't understand all of the hub-bub about this.

We had to take a shower together starting in 3rd grade at Sacred Heart. Frankly, growing up without running water (something you ought to be thankful for) I appreciated the opportunity. And we had our "dangers" as well with the likes of Wade Christopherson and Leonard Dunning and their bottle of wintergreen in your underwear trick.

Seems like if the school board were to cave in on this issue, they set a precedent for the next "oppressive" issue. I say quit whining, grow up, and be thankful you have running water. Lot of people in the world that don't have such luxury.

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (5/8/2010)]
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Consider it dropped. Can't figure out how the rest of the country figured it out though. Make sure y'all chime in when a cell phone pic gets around. Just hope it's not your kid whose naked photo is getting around and he/she begs you to move to get around the embarasment. Wouldn't want you to have to leave Miles City where you might have to go somewhere with some dif'ernt idears.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
If I believe what I have read posted here, most of MC youth know what everyone of the opposite sex looks like naked anyway.
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Posted by Bridgier 5 years ago
Jimmie's Wife -

I don't think the "older generation" quite gets what you're talking about. I'd still take it to the school board if I felt as strongly about it as you do.
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Posted by Wendy Wilson 5 years ago
Showering was mandatory in the 70s at CCDHS also. I for one hated it, as did most of my friends. There was only stall that was separate from the communal shower and there was always a line to use it. I hate, hate, HATED having to shower at school. But having had a smelly teenager of my own I realize the need for it. I think that separate stalls would nice.
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Posted by Levi Forman 5 years ago
I don't remember showering after gym being a traumatic experience, and it wasn't because I was one of the bullies or had an Atlas body either. I was in some kind of gym class 3 out of my 4 years and there was a fair amount of horsing around but I can't say I remember any significant persecution during gym class. I can't speak for sports as I wasn't in any but we usually had about 10 minutes max to shower up and get out of there to get to the next class so there wasn't time for a whole lot of debauchery and the requisite homophobia required that you keep your eyes above waist level (or at least not admit to looking lower than that) anyhow.

And without gym class showering I never would have had the opportunity to witness 10 minutes of nude fisticuffs between two of my classmates while Mr. Veis obliviously talked on the phone in the office which I have to admit was one of the most memorable spectacles of my high school career.
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Posted by Barb Holcomb 5 years ago
I'm not sure what girl's locker room Richard was showering in at SHJH/SHHS, but the one I showered in didn't have separate stalls. We didn't have to worry about phone cams and didn't have girl-bullies, but had to make sure the holes in the wall from the boys locker room were plugged.

I don't recall it being that traumatic. I appreciated a shower then as much as now when they aren't always available.
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Posted by ST 5 years ago
There is a school board meeting tomorrow evening, May 10th, at 7:00pm. It is in the central school administrative office building, next to the high school.
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Posted by ST 5 years ago
This is not an issue to take lightly. Picture taking cell phones are a reality that is here to stay. It is nieve to think that a school rule, banning cell phones in the locker room, will actually stop the behavior. The circulation of a nude photo of a teenager can destroy their lives. Sexting has lead to suicide. Google teen suicide related to sexting.

Here is one link to a story regarding a girl and her ex-boyfriend. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29546030.

Here is a quote I found on another site:

"This is very important, because it shows that sexting-related suicides are tracking the same way cyberbullying-related suicides are," said Parry Aftab, a nationally known "cyberlawyer" who has appeared on Good Morning America and the Today show.

A 2009 Harris online poll shows that one in five teens admits to having sent naked pictures of themselves or others over a cell phone. But even that number may be low.

IMHO, hand each kid a baby wipe and a stick of deodorant. Let them clean their pits and go on their way. It isn't worth the risk.
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Posted by howdy 5 years ago
agree, it isn't worth it, given the stakes in today's age...A childs sense of self worth is more important than clean pits and todays deodorant is capable of holding the odor till they get home...one phone pic and you have extreme consequences, not something we had as kids back before picture taking cells...you can always have a couple of private showers for those that insist on taking them...

[This message has been edited by howdy (5/10/2010)]
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Posted by LisaP 5 years ago
I think that some of you are missing the point or don't have children this age. Having a picture posted on the internet or sent across the country via cell phone is a very real possibility. I think it happens more than you know. Many send pictures of themselves and think nothing of it, why would they care anymore about someone else? My kids have never had a problem in our school, but I completely understand your concern.

This isn't an issue with the teacher, its an issue with what is or isn't required by school policy. Where does one go to change school policy if not the school board? I thought they were there to make rules and policies to protect the students and provide them with a quality educational experience. Guess I was wrong.
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Posted by Patricia 5 years ago
This is what I found out yesterday: 1) It is MANDATORY to shower in Junior High. 2) Points will be deducted from your gym grade if you do not shower (JH). 3) Showering in high school is NOT mandatory, but a good idea (smelly Sophomore boys!).
When the issue of showering in a swim suit came up in discussion, one mom said, "What would be gained by stripping off your clothes just to get into a swim suit?"
Yes, Jimmie's wife, taking pics with your cell phone IS a real concern in this day and age. We did have a district-wide meeting (first with the students and faculty, then the evening meeting was just for the parents) on "sexting". Sadly the parental meeting in the evening was poorly attended.
No, teachers and coaches can't change policy, but principles can. Try speaking with Mr Plowman about your concerns first, and maybe then go to the school board.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Thanks for the info. Patricia. Ya, the swimming suits idea is prob. not the best here. The areas that use suits have changing areas, so it's not a problem. Here there would be no hiding while changing which would defeat the purpose. I would like to know why using wipes like other areas do would not work (from the naysayers). We rely on wipes to clean poop off of baby's skin and it seems to get rid of the smell. Can't imagine that it wouldn't work to get rid of sweat. Or maybe our kids here in Miles City are just more sweaty than the kids in other parts of the country where this is the practice.

I think that the parent attendance at the "sexting" meeting was not good because most parents don't think its much of a problem, as you can see on this board. Think again parents. Its too bad more didn't show. Its a very real problem.

Kids have a right to have their bodies to themselves. Just because there are plenty of kids who don't mind sharing pics of themselves with others doesn't mean they are all that way. Kids who find modesty important shouldnt be penalized because of kids who share anyway (as the one guy pointed out that the girlfriends share with their boyfriends anyway; not everyone is like that). Im surpised that someone like Richard who seems to think modesty is important doesn't think that kids should have the right to it at school if they want. If kids want to shower, great and if they don't great. It shouldn't be mandatory. I got an e-mail from someone (don't know if man or woman) that said he/she? is making a request to the washington principal to make showers optional because of problems his/her? son had at the junior high.
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey 5 years ago
jimmie, your kid wont be the only one having to go through this. your kid wont be the only one uncomfortable with what stage in puberty their body is in, or with how tall, short, fat, thin, large busted, small busted, acne ridden, hairy, hairless they happen to be. your kid will be like many others and get creative about how to shower after gym and show the least amount of skin. i have faith in your kid to let you and the school know if their peers are being inappropriate.

on the first day of junior high gym class nearly everyone is nervous as hell about the shower part. maybe you just don't get it because wherever you came from didn't do this.
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
I get it just fine because I "came from" here.

What is the reason that it is mandatory at the junior high and not at the high school?

Just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it should stay that way. It is a new time. There are all kinds of behaviors that used to be ok that are reckless now. Talking to and accepting things from strangers and being out after dark and hitchhiking all used to be pretty common things. Now we teach our kids absolutely not because of the risk. This isnt any different. there is risk now due to cell phones and pics and texting that didn't used to be. Behaviors need to change accordingly.

Answer me this, what benefit are we getting exactly that would make it worth a compromising photo being leaked of our kids? I could see in the times when showers were hard to come by, but come on, this is not the case anymore. It would be a pretty rare case for someone in Miles City not to have access to a shower/bath. So what benefit is worth that cell pic?

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (5/12/2010)]
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Posted by Levi Forman 5 years ago
Has this cell pic thing ever happened? It seems a bit paranoid to want to change policy over something that has never even happened.

Having a cell picture taken of you on the toilet would be even more humiliating I'd think and there is no supervision in the bathroom yet I don't hear about people snapping pics over or under the stall doors. What makes you think that this will suddenly become a problem now that your kid is in the locker room?

[This message has been edited by Levi Forman (5/12/2010)]
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
Wow, sitting on the toilet is more embarasing than being in the shower? Are you sitting on the toilet naked? If not, I don't need to discuss it further. If so, you have more problems than I can help with. The schools ARE having a problem with kids bringing phones to schools and using them when they are not supposed to even though there is already a ban. It's not much of a stretch to think this unauthorized use will extend to the showers. Youve already heard from an educator on this forum about sexting. This is a really interesting argument to me. The don't worry about it until it happens bit. Too bad that will be too late for someone's kid, but it won't be mine at least not for a few years. I said earlier that my oldest has already been through this mess and I don't have one it will be effecting for a few years. Using this logic, I shouldn't worry about anything at all until AFTER it happens.

Still waiting to hear what the benefit is that outweighs the risk???

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (5/12/2010)]
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Posted by Christen LeBlanc Ramsey 5 years ago
how about the gym teachers collect cell phones at the beginning of each class, lock them in a cabinet/ drawer until class is dismissed and all are dressed? perhaps they should put forth a harsh punishment of suspension and/ or sexual harassment charges if someone is caught violating a no cell phones in the locker room rule as well.

what you ask is the benefit? kids need to follow established rules at school. someone determined that preteens stink after running the mile, they often do not have great hygiene prior to gym class either. (your kids might, but that isn't true for everyone. i'm sure a quick glance around town and you'll notice young people appearing/ smelling unshowered; now imagine that after running around for nearly an hour. this is why the school wants them to smell fresh.)
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Posted by Jimmie 5 years ago
All the kid has to do is say they don't have one or bring two to school. Not difficult. Some teachers already have a policy of collecting phones and still some get through.

As far as following rules, why have the rule in the first place? The high school doesn't have a mandatory policy. How do they manage with all of those smelly kids? How do other areas?
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson 5 years ago
Last night, the boys drew nipples on Cartman's buttcheeks, and took a picture of it, and it looked like boobs.

I think that is Jimmie's biggest fear of what might happen in the CCDHS locker room.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
No, we didn't have cell phones in the late 1970's. Instead we had this:



Compact enough to fit in a gym bag.

"There is nothing new under the sun".


[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (5/13/2010)]
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Posted by Kacey 5 years ago
Simple logic would say mandatory showers in junior high is a bad idea. That is the age when bodies are maturing in lots of ways. It's hard enough to be a pre-teen without having to worry about getting naked in front of other people. Do you parents who are for showering insist that your child walk around naked at home on the way to the shower? Do you insist that they leave the door open so anyone can walk in and out while your child is in the shower? Do you make them leave their bedroom door open while dressing? Yet you feel that they should do these things in front of total strangers! That is what a lot of kids are to each other at the beginning of junior high.

Did you not teach your children about their "private parts" when they were small and tell them that NO ONE had the right to touch them or make them feel uncomfortable?

I am not worried about cell phone photos although it is a possibility. I just think that the emotional stress is too much for some kids to deal with, considering everything else that being that age brings. I'd rather my kid look forward to school than being fearful every day that there was mandatory showering.
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Posted by howdy 5 years ago
Richard, I said "we didn't have picture taking cells", not you...I went to school long before the 70's...Graduated from boarding school in 1963...and even if you had a camera, getting it developed would perhaps have been problematic for at least most of my friends...Maybe you had your own dark room but I assure you, I did not and in my day if one dared to submit a nude photo to be developed, the company would refuse to develop it and in some cases reported it...Nowadays, most folks print their own, thanks to modern technology..
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
No worries, I wasn't quoting you.
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Posted by Toni Campbell Tivy 5 years ago
The word "Manditory" is what disturbs me. I think they should let the students make the decision about whether or not they are clean enough to get re-dressed after PE with or without a shower. I think most deoderants could cover up the smell till they get home for a private shower, and baby wipes could probably get rid of the worst of the sweat if that didn't work.

I know some of you said that YOU enjoyed the hot shower and didn't really care who saw you naked, but some people are more modest than others so it isn't really fair to apply your standards to others. Add body issues, embarassing scars, and other situations where someone's body does not quite resemble that of an airbrushed centerfold, and I wouldn't imagine ALL of the students wanting to waltz around naked around their fellow students, even if "all the bits" ARE similar and adequate. Not all of us were raised to be comfortable bathing naked with a bunch of other people we vaguely know without a care in the world (I am including myself-I was raised to be a good modest Catholic girl...)

I have worked as an Occupational Therapist with people who have had strokes (we teach them how to dress themselves, get around, and do hygiene tasks after one side of their body has been paralyzed by a stroke). It is a big adjustment-anyone who has ever been in the hospital after a serious illness or accident know how much privacy you actually get (not) and can probably remember at least one time when a little more of you was hanging out than you were comfortable with. Some of the people I have worked with were EXTREMELY modest. I have even met women who swear that no one other than their Mothers have ever seen them naked (even the married ones-not quite sure how that worked exactly). Anyway, I think it would be rude to force people with this upbringing to go into a big shower room with no stalls and a bunch of other naked people (the possibility of cell phone photos being sent around is even more heinous)...

I work out at the local YMCA here 4 or 5 days a week. It has 4 private shower stalls and 4 showers/spigots that are not in stalls. I think the room used to be one big room, but it doesn't look like it took more than a few bolts into the shower tiles to install the shower stalls. I don't think it would cost more than $500 or so to convert some of the showers at CCDHS into stalls (frankly I am surprized that this hasn't been done in the 30+ years since I attended PE there-maybe it's time they upgraded a little!)

There are definitely people who couldn't care less if everyone sees them shower, which is great, but it is nice to have more than 1 small private stall for more modest students, and making it MANDITORY to get naked and shower in front of all of your fellow students does not sound respectful or even very socially responsible.
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Posted by Salli (Scanlan) Moore 5 years ago
As tough as kids are - they are also very fragile!
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
(I am including myself-I was raised to be a good modest Catholic girl...)


No comment.
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson 5 years ago
Now Richard....just when I thought you were raising yourself to be above the rest of us, there you go and take a cheap shot at Toni.

Tsk, tsk.

I am disappointed in the new Richard Bonine, Jr......as far as the old one (of say a month ago), this was (is?) to be expected.........
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Posted by Toni Campbell Tivy 5 years ago
Richard doesn't even know me from Adam (or Eve as it were) so I doubt any cheap shots from him are going to carry any weight with me.

I am SO modest that in 6 months in Europe (where more than half the beaches and city parks were topless and at least 1/4 are nude), I ALWAYS wore a swimming suit or clothes, even though I got called "one of those American Prudes" more than once and had people try plenty of peer pressure to make me (un)dress like the rest of the crowd. I have also never gone skinny dipping in the city pool (which was a funny thing written about growing up in Miles City on a FB quiz. It made it sound like everyone had). I also always shower in the stalls at the Y. So there. I may be more of a Lutheran than a Catholic these days, but old habits die hard. Not that I have ever worn a habit-I'm not THAT Catholic.... (LOL)!
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Posted by Toni Campbell Tivy 5 years ago
and BTW...I don't know why I even bothered to respond to your odd little snipe....

I don't know that your arguments (or anyone else's) are seen as impressive by others when you veer off the topic and start in with name calling tactics. That hardly makes you look credible or logical to the average person viewing the discussion (just sayin').
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Posted by Gunnar Emilsson 5 years ago
I don't understand it either, Toni.

Just when I was ready to write Richard off forever, he started to make extremely lucid posts for a couple of weeks.

Then he's back to this thread.

Is the Guinness talking? Its a pretty low alcoholic beer, so I don't think so. Last time his excuse was sinus medication....I think.

Anyway, don't let it bother you...he is who he is and you ain't who he ain't. It bothered me a few weeks ago, but I got over it.
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Posted by Richard Bonine, Jr 5 years ago
Sorry, I am wrong for lumping you together with all of the "good modest catholic girls" with whom I attended school. Maybe you are different. There was just something I perceived as "sanctimony" in your statement, I found humorous.

Back to the showers... perhaps making them mandatory is overboard. On the other hand motivation of Jr. High kids to accomplish just about anything requires some element of "mandatoriness".

[This message has been edited by Richard Bonine, Jr (5/17/2010)]
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